Trade Felton

[thebuzzardman]

Felton vs Lin. It's the new Gallo vs Melo. And we're only JUST getting started.

Mostly, it'll be where logic, reasoning and even handed debate go to die, and that's on both sides of the argument. Making logical points will be pissing in the breeze, only less refreshing.

Anyone who even debates that Gallo is even in the same zip code as Melo needs to stop watching basketball because they obviously don't understand it.

As far as Lin vs Felton. Who cares. You know what Lin might one day be 10 times the player that Felton is good for him. He is gone. The past cannot be changed. He is not a Knick. Rockets forum is that way.

We have Felton for better or worse. He has been good for us until his injury. He is serviceable. Yes he absolutely needs to play better and make better decisions but to make threads like these just smh.

He is a 41% FG shooter who takes about 5 terrible shots per game. As the year wears on and this continues, we really need to bring the Lin debacle up. Not to rub it in, but to make management accountable. We had a great and young PG, who needed some work, and suddenly we want to save money.

Felton isn't bad, but he isn't a starter on a championship caliber team, it appears. How does he even get 2 assists on this team? I am still not sure how that is possible. The pain of Lin grows deeper as the season wears on, Lin (and Harden) have a nothing team above 500 and in the race for a playoff spot. Yes, we are the BETTER team, but we could have been better had we just held on to him and let the kid grow. Now we have a so so IQ PG running this team... sad for Knicks fans as usual.

More than likely this will be brough up again and again, cause Knicks fans are not followers, we can think and express when need be.

If by expressing what need be, you mean bring up the same points over and over and over again? Yeah, I guess so.

Lins' gone. Most of us don't like it. Others, can't get over it and ceaselessly harp about it. What's the point? Knicks decided to get get depth at the PG position instead of having one guy. Or maybe Dolan is just that (Please Use More Appropriate Word). Since we are both Knick fans, we know that must be true. But it happened. geezus, let's not recycle the same crap over and over every time the guy has a bad stretch. And why are you interjecting the Rockets and how "good" they are. This isn't a discussion of that team. See, this is what's annoying about Lin fanboys. IF we have to talk about Lin, how about at least in the hypothetical of how he'd be on the Knicks, that is at least appropriate, instead of ZOMFG, look at the Rockets. It's dull. It's old. Already.

[SaveUsKP6]

You know advanced stats are pure crap when they tell you Lin is a better defender than Felton. Use your eyes. You'll look a lot less dumb.

[thebuzzardman]

And if Lin is so very good, then Lin plus Harden ISN"T a nothing team, because 2/5 the starting line up is good.
Parsons is decent. Asslik is good defensive center at the least.

Let's compare to the 20 win Knicks starting Lineup.
Melo (some people like Harden better)
Brewer. Yeah, he's GREAATTT
Kidd - is he really elite anymore? Would you say he's an average or below average SG in the league? How about, less than average with way above average intangibles?
Chander - offensively limited Center who is (or was?) really good on defense.
A sh*tty PG. According to the Lin fan club.

So, why is this team hovering around 3rd to 6th best record in the league? Because if I combined the Lin memes with the Melo and Woodson memes, it would mean a team that runs two role players at SG and SF, with a over matched coach who can't adjust to personnel with a ball hogging, chucking, iso playing ball stopping diva. And yet, that team has one of the better records in the league.

What's truly annoying, and will probably be the reason that I eventually stop posting here, is that even getting into this discussion is annoying. I WANTED Knicks to retain Lin. It's an open sore for me. But the only thing more annoying than losing a player I really like is listening to posters on forums whoof sh*t constantly, throw Lin back in my face when I'd rather ignore it at times, or get over it slowly. Also, more annoying that losing Lin is posters who selectively cherry pick games or stretches to support an obvious agenda over facts, even when they are otherwise good posters. Like, they use 95% good logic, but when it comes to "their player", you might was well be having a logical discussion with them about their religion, wife of children, ie, it's not happening. It was what was so disappointing about TKF. Really good analysis, had great things to say, then suddenly this odd thing starts creeping into his posts, where he was 99% spot on about everything, except Melo and Gallo, and then he went off the deep end about it.

I'm just saying, if we got the anti Felton and anti Melo factions together, it'd be hilarious, because if Felton is this BAD, then Melo must be this GOOD. Heck, some posters might be on same page against Melo AND Felton. I have to figure they are just contentious pricks who lick to argues on message boards for fun then.

[JustaKnickFan]

Lin a better defender than Felton? Come on now, we all watched Lin last year and we know he wasn't that great defensively. Felton on the other hand is very good at guarding guys that are around his size, but can be overmatched by bigger PGs like Dwill. Overall, I'd say Felton is solid defensively while Lin is below average defensively.

It's funny how suddenly about a bad 5 game stretch for Felton and a good one for Lin, people now want Lin back. RealGM short-term memory at its finest I guess.

[thebuzzardman]

And I'll add, the posters who whoof on Felton to put down Lin when HE has good games or runs is equally annoying.

[bronxknicksfan1]

Lin has only defended against isolation 26 times while Felton has only defended it 24 times, how is that enough of a sample size to even determine who is a better isolation defender? Pick and roll defense, Lin has got it there. And with Spot up shooting, they've both defended it 74 times and there's only a one shot difference in FGM against either one. Even if Felton has shown to close out the 3 point shot better according to those numbers, it's still not enough of a sample size of FGA or FGM.

Even if we were to go by these stats, overall Lin is not a much better defender than Felton, at all. .04 ppp is not a big difference, especially when they're separated by .6 FG%.

[thebuzzardman]

He doesn't create for anyone but Tyson. I really think he should be the backup to Kidd. He's a chucker, and takes bad shots

Felton gives me that Toney Douglas feeling when he gets the ball...
People will argue he is the second option....blah blah blah
No he is the Point Guard ! Do your job ! He only looks for Tyson on the Pick and Roll, nothing else.
He chucks a bit too much now a days.
Hopefully when Stat returns his shots go back to 10 and under each game.
39% Fg ? Thats horrible. He is taking 16 shots per game , Melo is taking 20. He only taking 4 less than our leading scorer. He has to go back to 10 shots a game and just move the god damn ball. No more contested jumpshots that is not his role. Its A. Create B. Dish C. Drive D. Take open shot..... nothing more.

When Amare comes back , he needs a minimum 15 shots per game. 6 of those are coming straight from Felton, another 3 from JR. Thats 9 right there and he will find the remainder off point backs , fast break and hustle plays.

We need amare to be efficient like his days with the Suns. 55% FG. He may take a few shots from Tyson as well. Allowing Tyson to get more offensive rebounds and tap outs.

Toney Douglas feeling. Really? Exaggerate much?

[knicksnyk]

Lin a better defender than Felton? Come on now, we all watched Lin last year and we know he wasn't that great defensively. Felton on the other hand is very good at guarding guys that are around his size, but can be overmatched by bigger PGs like Dwill. Overall, I'd say Felton is solid defensively while Lin is below average defensively.

It's funny how suddenly about a bad 5 game stretch for Felton and a good one for Lin, people now want Lin back. RealGM short-term memory at its finest I guess.

Felton isn't solid defensively. He is average. he is slow to get around screens, struggles against guards taht are bigger stronger, quicker, smaller & more athletic than him. really can't prevent penetration at all & when guys get better off him he doesn't recover well & doesn't bring much in terms of blocks rebounds & steals. Woodson took Felton off barea & put JR who did a better job for a reason lol.

felton isn't solid defensively at all he is average and Lin right now based on advance stats & just watching his games in houston he is above average. here is another number, Lins defensive Win share number is 0.8 Feltons is 0.5

You know advanced stats are pure crap when they tell you Lin is a better defender than Felton. Use your eyes. You'll look a lot less dumb.

Believe what you want to believe facts won't stop you. Mote.

[bronxknicksfan1]

I'm still wondering where some of these posters were this entire time the Knicks were playing this great while Lin was playing poorly in Houston. They've come out of nowhere lately. Stay in your Lin fanboy cave if you have nothing to contribute about this Knicks team and their current success.

[thebuzzardman]

I honestly don't understand the Felton debate. If anyone thought he'd keep shooting 45% from the field and 40% from 3 the entire season he was in for getting let down. I mean the percentages he shot early on were percentages great offensive PGs like a Steph Curry etc. shoot. Felton is a guy that is solid in a lot of areas but not great at anything really. It's exactly what you'd expect for a guy signing for 4mill. per year.

Ding ding ding.

Yet people are pissed off. They HATE the logical, fiscally properly run Knicks.

Quick, someone get Layden Jr back in here so he can give Alan Houston a zillion year deal at 20 million per. Or Eddy Curry a long term contract, or pony up for Jerome James.

Nah, instead lets sh*t on the head of signings like Felton, for 4 million or 3 years or JR Smith, cause tall SG's who have some PG skills who are athletic and have 3 point range are just laying around to be picked up. Next, let's please move along to b*tching about vets who are signed for around the vet min but they are too old, you know, because good players who have a lot left in the tank always sign for minimum deals to be back up players.

[Woods Son]

20-7 and we are starting to get threads like this?

How about we let the guy heal..... He'll be ok.

[bronxknicksfan1]

LOL at using defensive win shares as a reason for why Lin is a better defender. Harden has 0.8 defensive win shares as well, want to check his synergy stats compared to Felton?

[thebuzzardman]

He is Jamal Crawford 2.0

Woodson should bring him off the bench.

Starte Kidd, Novak, Copeland, Melo and Chandler until Amar'e comes back. Let Melo bring the ball up the court like MDA use to do with him.

We tried this experiment before. We were below .500 doing so.

I doubt this poster means it this way, but Felton would be interesting in the Mircowave Johnson role, but we have Smith for that.

IF Lin resigned AND Felton and Kidd were on team instead of priggs, (and if Ray didn't pout about bench, hey we are fantasing here) then it would have been interesting.

[bronxknicksfan1]

He is Jamal Crawford 2.0

Woodson should bring him off the bench.

Starte Kidd, Novak, Copeland, Melo and Chandler until Amar'e comes back. Let Melo bring the ball up the court like MDA use to do with him.

We tried this experiment before. We were below .500 doing so.

I doubt this poster means it this way, but Felton would be interesting in the Mircowave Johnson role, but we have Smith for that.

IF Lin resigned AND Felton and Kidd were on team instead of priggs, (and if Ray didn't pout about bench, hey we are fantasing here) then it would have been interesting.

IF that situation ever did happen, I'd prefer Lin come off the bench. Ray, Kidd and Melo have been playing great together so far. Lin and Melo never had that type of chemistry, Lin had better chemistry with the bench guys more than anything.

[knicksnyk]

Lin has only defended against isolation 26 times while Felton has only defended it 24 times, how is that enough of a sample size to even determine who is a better isolation defender? Pick and roll defense, Lin has got it there. And with Spot up shooting, they've both defended it 74 times and there's only a one shot difference in FGM against either one. Even if Felton has shown to close out the 3 point shot better according to those numbers, it's still not enough of a sample size of FGA or FGM.

Even if we were to go by these stats, overall Lin is not a much better defender than Felton, at all. .04 ppp is not a big difference, especially when they're separated by .6 FG%.

Thank you for looking through the numbers. Very fair points the sample is small. But if the sample is to small to say that Lin is a better defender than felton then therefore saying that felton is better defensively than lin is also not foolish to say because of the same small sample. but even comparing last years numbers lin in NY vs Felton in POR Lin was also better obviously because Felton was really overweight.

also felton will always be the better spot up shooter defender because houston (the entire roster) doesn't defend the 3 ball well at all they always help in the paint. so far to say that felton will have that advantage.

Anyway, from a combination of watching the games & just advanced stats it is clear that felton isn't better & I think as the sample progresses Lin's numbers will be better. Like I said Feltons DWS is 0.5 & Lins are 0.8

[N8isScofield]

How has this stupid thread made it 15 pages? Should have been locked immediately.

[knicksnyk]

LOL at using defensive win shares as a reason for why Lin is a better defender. Harden has 0.8 defensive win shares as well, want to check his synergy stats compared to Felton?

why they play two totally different positions? Harden defends the 2 & the 3 & felton defends 1 & 2. anyway all stats have there flaws but felton is not solid defensively bro he just isn't anybody can see that.

[earthmansurfer]

[quote="bronxknicksfan1You mean Harden has been keeping a nothing team above .500. Lin just recently has had a decent 3 game stretch. Besides that and that one game against the Spurs, he's been struggling for pretty much the entire season. People were talking about how bad of a contract he was already or did you forget that? Only thing he's been better than Felton this season is steals, getting to the FT and shooting a better percentage from there. Everything else is either a wash or Felton is better. And this only started happening when Felton got injured, so please don't bring Lin up when he hasn't done **** this year to prove he's better than anyone.

It is clear that Harden is a near great to great player but it is also equally as clear that he struggles when Lin is out of the game - time and time again. So, instead of making this a black and white thing, give credit where credit is due.

Yes, Lin HAD been struggling but he also WAS coming back from injury - you left that out.

Lin is a better defender than Felton, he sees the floor A LOT BETTER than Felton, gets more steals, he is a better passer than Felton and his overall IQ is leaps better. Anyway, the point is that Lin is a better leader. He took a bunch of scrubs here on an 8 game winning streak and turned the season around. His play lately is clearly on the rise. He is shooting above Felton FG% wise if you haven't checked.

It is a team game, remember...

How would Harden struggle when Lin is out of the game? Lin is basically a spot-up shooter when Harden is out there, which makes Lin more of a liability than anything since he's not a good shooter.

Wasn't that injury supposed to be last only a couple of week LAST season? I highly doubt that carried over into this season, especially since he was playing ball during the summer.

Lin hasn't shown he's a better defender than Felton either since he's been a net negative according to +/-. And for all the crap he gets, Felton has the Knicks playing better when he's on the court. It's the other way around with Lin and the Rockets. Also, how is Lin the leader of the Rockets? It's been pretty obvious that Harden has been leading that team all season. Lin JUST started to put up decent numbers.

Why are you bringing up those 8 games from LAST season? He sucked after those 8 games, but there's no point in bring that up because it's a new season. Why not talk about his abysmal first 20 games of this season? Felton has shown much more consistency this year than Lin has and just got into a funk since the MIA game and that's mainly due to the swelling in his hands. Without Felton, we're not 20-7 right now.

Lin can create his own shot, as can Harden. When Lin is out they double Harden even harder. Have you seen the games?

Lin is nearing 100% now. It was clear from watching the games that he didn't have his explosiveness earlier in the year, till not that long ago actually.

Lin has better hands, similar speed but not the bulk. Lin's speed is a bit more than Feltons, according to the numbers last year. When Lin wasn't given too many minutes last year, he was a very very good defender.
+ - on a bad to average team is not going to tell you much. Even on a great team it can be deceptive.

The abysmall 20 games of the season, Lin was not any where near 100%. That is why I brought up last season, he had his athleticism.

Felton is doing now what he did with us last time, start incredibly strong then fade (and then he got traded, not saying it was related though.) If a player has problems with his hands, if his brain is functioning well, he just shouldn't shoot so much.

[JustaKnickFan]

Lin a better defender than Felton? Come on now, we all watched Lin last year and we know he wasn't that great defensively. Felton on the other hand is very good at guarding guys that are around his size, but can be overmatched by bigger PGs like Dwill. Overall, I'd say Felton is solid defensively while Lin is below average defensively.

It's funny how suddenly about a bad 5 game stretch for Felton and a good one for Lin, people now want Lin back. RealGM short-term memory at its finest I guess.

Felton isn't solid defensively. He is average. he is slow to get around screens, struggles against guards taht are bigger stronger, quicker, smaller & more athletic than him. really can't prevent penetration at all & when guys get better off him he doesn't recover well & doesn't bring much in terms of blocks rebounds & steals. Woodson took Felton off barea & put JR who did a better job for a reason lol.

felton isn't solid defensively at all he is average and Lin right now based on advance stats & just watching his games in houston he is above average. here is another number, Lins defensive Win share number is 0.8 Feltons is 0.5

You know advanced stats are pure crap when they tell you Lin is a better defender than Felton. Use your eyes. You'll look a lot less dumb.

Believe what you want to believe facts won't stop you. Mote.

I don't know what you're talking about with Woodson switching Felton off Barea, because Felton was on Barea for almost the whole game and Barea ended up only going 4-14. JR was guarding Shved most of the time because of their height. Felton does bring get you an occasional block(remember he blocked Irving before halftime a few games ago) steal(he had a big one last game), and big rebound(also against Twolves he pulled down an important one). Every guard is slow to get around screens, that's why the PnR is so deadly in this league. I'll admit though Felton does struggle against stronger guards, and can't really do much to stop penetration.

Lin on the other hand, gets beat time and time again by good PGs. You all remember his big 38 point game against the Spurs, but Toney Parker had a triple double (27 12 12) against him, too. Also, Dwill dropped 27 and then 38 against him back when he was on the Knicks, and remember Rondo's 17 20 17 triple double against him? Lin is a liability defensively. Apparently he even got benched because Nate Robinson was torching him http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/23/coach-says-jeremy-lin-benched-in-fourth-because-of-defense/

[Kampuchea]

you guys sure do talk about Lin a ton. We arent trading Felton for him so no need to discuss Lin