Trade Felton

[KnickswiththeKnack]

The really funny thing to me is that this thread has gone 22 pages on the back of a WIN, in which Felton scored 15 pts on 7-15 shooting. Are there things he could be doing better? Sure! But hey, we must be eatin' real good right now.

[nykballa2k4]

Come on guy...... 24?

There aren't 24 pg that would as successful with this squad.

Just to be clear, I am going to rate point guards who I think are better overall than Felton and who I would rather have here than Ray. However, it could be interpreted that you also are judging his personality and friendship with teammates which I will not be.
1-5: Paul, Westbrook, Rondo, Deron, Rose
6-10: Parker, Irving, Curry, Nash, Lowry
11-15: Lawson, Conley, Lillard, Kemba, Holiday
16-20: Lin, Mo Williams, Rubio, Dragic, Jennings
21-25: Teague, Calderon, Bledsoe, Felton(of this grouping, I would take all but Calderon over Felton), Sessions
26-30: Collison, Vazquez, Jack, Hill, Nelson

Possible omissions: Ridnour, Knight, Andre Miller.

That is how I see it. The point guard position is heavy these days and honestly, 11-20 are really all the same to me.

[Thugger HBC]

LOL so I have metrics that say he is a poor defender & you say disregard him. If I had stats that said he was better i doubt you would say the same. Maybe the reason why kyrie was hitting all those tough shots against felton was because he knew a bad defender was in front of him!! LMAO you remember that?

I'd like to see those metrics that show he's poor.

Using Kyrie as an example is totally poor, that kid can shoot from anywhere.

His defensive rating is one of the worst on the team. It's 109. The only one with a worse rating is Novak.

That can possibly be said of alot of pg's, that's where defenses break down first.

[knicksnyk]

I'd like to see those metrics that show he's poor.

Using Kyrie as an example is totally poor, that kid can shoot from anywhere.

I posted his synergy defensive numbers. the kyrie thing was a total joke on the poster not on felton just ignore it

The metrics you put up only showed he isn't that good of a PnR defender, which is true. All the other ones either show he's a decent defender or don't have enough of a sample size. Use different stats to try and prove that point, if you can find them.

Synergy defensive stats are the most reliable. they aren't perfect but they are the best. it is what a lo of the NBA media outlets use. When the sample gets bigger we can revisit this topic. but what we do know is that he is a decent spot up defender & bad in the PNR. Isolation there isn't enough of a sample although I do think we can come to some conclusions. After all it has been about 25 games now, last year people used 25 games to determine that lin was good or that he sucked on Defense why can't we do the same for ray?

[bklynstoops]

I'll admit, maybe the thread is a bit of an overreaction as I was frustrated watching the game yesterday with Felton chucking and not looking like a pg at all.

However it's not about Felton missing shots, it's about his decision making in deciding to take those shots. I know we say that we should stand pat at the deadline, but I wouldn't mind if the right deal comes along for Felton and we get rid of him.

I'm not saying there aren't better PGs out there, but if you really think about what you can get for Felton, you're not going to get back a better PG without throwing in other assets. And I just don't think Pablo is our starting PG. And Kidd is too slow to get to the basket at this point.

[Thugger HBC]

Come on guy...... 24?

There aren't 24 pg that would as successful with this squad.

Just to be clear, I am going to rate point guards who I think are better overall than Felton and who I would rather have here than Ray. However, it could be interpreted that you also are judging his personality and friendship with teammates which I will not be.
1-5: Paul, Westbrook, Rondo, Deron, Rose
6-10: Parker, Irving, Curry, Nash, Lowry
11-15: Lawson, Conley, Lillard, Kemba, Holiday
16-20: Lin, Mo Williams, Rubio, Dragic, Jennings
21-25: Teague, Calderon, Bledsoe, Felton(of this grouping, I would take all but Calderon over Felton), Sessions
26-30: Collison, Vazquez, Jack, Hill, Nelson

Possible omissions: Ridnour, Knight, Andre Miller.

That is how I see it. The point guard position is heavy these days and honestly, 11-20 are really all the same to me.

The large is actually the highest factor to be considering.

The majority of those players would not be able to do the job here because of it.

[bronxknicksfan1]

We should get another year of broken down Baron Davis, washed up Mike Bibby and garbage Toney Douglas for fans to appreciate the fact we're 20-7 with Felton carrying a bigger burden than he should at this point in the season.

[No35]

Come on guy...... 24?

There aren't 24 pg that would as successful with this squad.

Just to be clear, I am going to rate point guards who I think are better overall than Felton and who I would rather have here than Ray. However, it could be interpreted that you also are judging his personality and friendship with teammates which I will not be.
1-5: Paul, Westbrook, Rondo, Deron, Rose
6-10: Parker, Irving, Curry, Nash, Lowry
11-15: Lawson, Conley, Lillard, Kemba, Holiday
16-20: Lin, Mo Williams, Rubio, Dragic, Jennings
21-25: Teague, Calderon, Bledsoe, Felton(of this grouping, I would take all but Calderon over Felton), Sessions
26-30: Collison, Vazquez, Jack, Hill, Nelson

Possible omissions: Ridnour, Knight, Andre Miller.

That is how I see it. The point guard position is heavy these days and honestly, 11-20 are really all the same to me.

That's for the most part one of the most unbiased lists I've seen. My only alteration would be to move Deron to the 16-20 spot; man's been regressing every year and is near Felton chucking levels at this point and is a turnover machine to boot. He's been getting a pass on pure reputation ever since he got traded from Utah.

[nykballa2k4]

However, it could be interpreted that you also are judging his personality and friendship with teammates which I will not be.

The large is actually the highest factor to be considering.

The majority of those players would not be able to do the job here because of it.

That is true. Lin was booted because of a personal reason moreso than financial or basketball. But being that I am not privy to what goes on in locker rooms and behind the scenes, I can't make that judgement.

[bronxknicksfan1]

I'd like to see those metrics that show he's poor.

Using Kyrie as an example is totally poor, that kid can shoot from anywhere.

I posted his synergy defensive numbers. the kyrie thing was a total joke on the poster not on felton just ignore it

The metrics you put up only showed he isn't that good of a PnR defender, which is true. All the other ones either show he's a decent defender or don't have enough of a sample size. Use different stats to try and prove that point, if you can find them.

Synergy defensive stats are the most reliable. they aren't perfect but they are the best. it is what a lo of the NBA media outlets use. When the sample gets bigger we can revisit this topic. but what we do know is that he is a decent spot up defender & bad in the PNR. Isolation there isn't enough of a sample although I do think we can come to some conclusions. After all it has been about 25 games now, last year people used 25 games to determine that lin was good or that he sucked on Defense why can't we do the same for ray?

Those numbers don't even show that Felton is a bad PnR defender, he's just not that good at it. .83 ppp is not bad at all when it comes to defending the PnR, but it's not great. Isolation, both Lin and Felton have given up the same number of FGM, Lin's just had 2 more FGA on him, again not a big enough sample size.

And the reason people determined that last year was because PGs that faced the Knicks would consistently have some their best games of the year with Lin defending them. That hasn't been the case this year with Felton.

[Thugger HBC]

Those numbers don't even show that Felton is a bad PnR defender, he's just not that good at it. .83 ppp is not bad at all when it comes to defending the PnR, but it's not great. Isolation, both Lin and Felton have given up the same number of FGM, Lin's just had 2 more FGA on him, again not a big enough sample size.

And the reason people determined that last year was because PGs that faced the Knicks would consistently have some their best games of the year with Lin defending them. That hasn't been the case this year with Felton.

The poster already admitted pages ago that the sample size was too small, which was why i asked for an actual gauge to use, which has hasn't provided.

All i see in this thread is opinions, but the only fact is 20-7 with Felton as the starter.

Side note...second reqeust, leave Lin out of the discussion.

I do not want this to become a Felton vs Lin thread.

[barborous]

If you want to converse about Felton, cool.

But leave Lin out, he has nothing to do with this discussion.

Please. Besides, Lin is only playing significantly better over the past stretch of games. He started off atrociously and has been mediocre up until a couple games ago.

I'd like to see those metrics that show he's poor.

Using Kyrie as an example is totally poor, that kid can shoot from anywhere.

I posted his synergy defensive numbers. the kyrie thing was a total joke on the poster not on felton just ignore it

Those numbers don't even show that Felton is a bad PnR defender, he's just not that good at it. .83 ppp is not bad at all when it comes to defending the PnR, but it's not great. Isolation, both Lin and Felton have given up the same number of FGM, Lin's just had 2 more FGA on him, again not a big enough sample size.

And the reason people determined that last year was because PGs that faced the Knicks would consistently have some their best games of the year with Lin defending them. That hasn't been the case this year with Felton.

I don't have a problem with Felton's defense. He certainly doesn't come close to deserving the "bulldog" iso reputation he had at the beginning of the year for some reason, but PG iso defense, as long as it's not ridiculously terrible like Kyrie's, is irrelevant, and P/R defense is all about help defense, and he's definitely passable on that front. Advanced stats can lie sometimes.

I just wish he would take fewer shots and make better decisions.

[Sark]

That can possibly be said of alot of pg's, that's where defenses break down first.

That's not true at all. Where did you get that from?

[earthmansurfer]

The really funny thing to me is that this thread has gone 22 pages on the back of a WIN, in which Felton scored 15 pts on 7-15 shooting. Are there things he could be doing better? Sure! But hey, we must be eatin' real good right now.

2 assists, how is that even possible?

But he did have a nice shooting game stat wise.

[bronxknicksfan1]

I'm going to leave this argument. This discussion has been had multiple times about Lin and it's getting ridiculous again.

[barborous]

The really funny thing to me is that this thread has gone 22 pages on the back of a WIN, in which Felton scored 15 pts on 7-15 shooting. Are there things he could be doing better? Sure! But hey, we must be eatin' real good right now.

2 assists, how is that even possible?

But he did have a nice shooting game stat wise.

Well, no. It was his fourth consecutive game on < 50% TS, which is kind of atrocious. But he wasn't forcing shots as much; he just wasn't getting calls, which makes me hopeful going forward.

[knicksnyk]

And the reason people determined that last year was because PGs that faced the Knicks would consistently have some their best games of the year with Lin defending them. That hasn't been the case this year with Felton.

Responding to your last sentence only about PGs having the best games of the year against felton LOL kyrie dropped 40. Lin dropped 28. Kirk hinrich came alive against felton almost had a triple double kirck hinrich was literally the walking dead previously. Those are just the most recent games I can remember off the top off my head. LOL. Thank you for helping me prove my point & reminding me about Kirk Hinrich i totally forgot that homie nearly had a tripple double against us lmao. *tears*

[Workforce250]

20-7

20-7

20-7

20-7

20-7

Felton is being asked to be our #2 and #3 scoring options, depending if JR is on the floor and if he is hot or not. He has played much better than I would have thought coming into the season, especially considering the burden he has to carry. Run the O, create for others, score etc. He fits our team perfectly, he is a gritty player, and Melo/Woodson love the guy. Enough said.

Our team has the perfect components around Melo for what our options where. Are there more ideal components,of course, any of the Elite PG's except Rondo (because he would need to knock down way too many open jumpers) would fit in, but there is a salary cap and we got Felton for Jared Jeffries, so I would say that is a huge win.

Also one must consider our PG is not Ray Felton, its Felton-Kidd-Prigs who together create a nice shooting, turnover free playmaking threat for 48 minutes.

Advanced Statistics should be taken with a grain of salt also. This is not baseball and so much of what goes on on the basketball court cannot be measured by any statistic. Like the media saying Melo's true shooting percentage and all that BS. Well carmelo being on the court if you WATCH the game creates easy buckets for others based on how much the D has to pay attention to him. Same thing with Ray Felton - his D is ok its not great but he plays extremely hard, cares, and is all about the team. He is in a slump now but he will get out of it.

All that matters is that come May/June he is playing like he did in November.

Very good.

[frogfood]

20-7

20-7

20-7

20-7

20-7

Felton is being asked to be our #2 and #3 scoring options, depending if JR is on the floor and if he is hot or not. He has played much better than I would have thought coming into the season, especially considering the burden he has to carry. Run the O, create for others, score etc. He fits our team perfectly, he is a gritty player, and Melo/Woodson love the guy. Enough said.

Our team has the perfect components around Melo for what our options where. Are there more ideal components,of course, any of the Elite PG's except Rondo (because he would need to knock down way too many open jumpers) would fit in, but there is a salary cap and we got Felton for Jared Jeffries, so I would say that is a huge win.

Also one must consider our PG is not Ray Felton, its Felton-Kidd-Prigs who together create a nice shooting, turnover free playmaking threat for 48 minutes.

Advanced Statistics should be taken with a grain of salt also. This is not baseball and so much of what goes on on the basketball court cannot be measured by any statistic. Like the media saying Melo's true shooting percentage and all that BS. Well carmelo being on the court if you WATCH the game creates easy buckets for others based on how much the D has to pay attention to him. Same thing with Ray Felton - his D is ok its not great but he plays extremely hard, cares, and is all about the team. He is in a slump now but he will get out of it.

All that matters is that come May/June he is playing like he did in November.

Very good.

Agreed to an extent. Assist numbers are very misleading and is very dependent on a team's offense. That said, I do feel like Felton is the wrong PG for this offense / taking on a bigger role than he should be in this offense. Sure, he is playing above his contract (mere 4m per) but what does that matter in the long run? We need smart and productive play no matter what the play:salary ratio.

I also do not feel he will ever reach that November level too. Those high shooting %s were not sustainable and teams are making adjustments to not leave our shooters wide open. That said, I'm sure he will play better and will not remain in this crater, especially when STAT returns.

[KnickswiththeKnack]

The really funny thing to me is that this thread has gone 22 pages on the back of a WIN, in which Felton scored 15 pts on 7-15 shooting. Are there things he could be doing better? Sure! But hey, we must be eatin' real good right now.

2 assists, how is that even possible?

But he did have a nice shooting game stat wise.

Yes, I said there were other things he could have done better. But he would have had at least 4-5 more assists if Chandler hadn't had a huge Russian Bear guarding him. Again, another place where I think Amare will ultimately be a big help. But anyway, there's that.