Why do we struggle when Lebron is on bench?

cb1 · Post #1 » by **cb1** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:41 am

This is my theory:
How bad we look when Lebron goes to the bench tells me that what Charles Barkley said was right. Somewhere along the way, this team fell in love with Lebron's talents and constructed everything around him including the small ball idea. We didn't bother getting other point guards because we knew he could play point guard, we didn't try hard enough to get a center because we knew we could put him at PF and put Bosh at C. We're asking wayy too much of the guy and am starting to think he will get worn down at some point. As talented as the team is, we are extremely vulnerable in two of the most important positions in basketball and that forces Lebron to have to cover up all those flaws. Your thoughts?

marson · Post #2 » by **marson** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:57 am

Simple. When LeBron is on the bench, we dont run simple plays like screen for shooters like ray and mike. Its like high screen all day or we just give it to Bosh or Wade for iso mode and then BAM, there goes our lead.

cb1 · Post #3 » by **cb1** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:06 am

jami0528 wrote:Simple. When LeBron is on the bench, we dont run simple plays like screen for shooters like ray and mike. Its like high screen all day or we just give it to Bosh or Wade for iso mode and then BAM, there goes our lead.

Most of it has to do with the fact that other than Wade, nobody else in that unit can create a shot for others. Bosh can create for himself sometimes but he doesn't know how to create shots for others so all the pressure is on Wade to get everybody going in that lineup which becomes hard when teams just trap him and Wade doesn't get past his man as easy as he used to anymore. This tells me that in the playoffs, Wade will be a huge key for us and if he struggles, the team will also struggle mightily unless Lebron goes nuts.

homecourtloss · Post #4 » by **homecourtloss** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:25 am

I think you make a lot of good points. Somehow, some way, this team has become just about as reliant on James as the Cavs were, and especially this year when the reins have been completely turned over to him. This team is deeply flawed but James somehow masks those flaws. We could easily be 17-11 or 16-12 right now. The frightening thing is that the Big Three have played well or even really well in our losses.

cb1 · Post #5 » by **cb1** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:01 am

kingjames623 wrote:I think you make a lot of good points. Somehow, some way, this team has become just about as reliant on James as the Cavs were, and especially this year when the reins have been completely turned over to him. This team is deeply flawed but James somehow masks those flaws. We could easily be 17-11 or 16-12 right now. The frightening thing is that the Big Three have played well or even really well in our losses.

I agree with this

marson · Post #6 » by **marson** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:15 am

kingjames623 wrote:I think you make a lot of good points. Somehow, some way, this team has become just about as reliant on James as the Cavs were, and especially this year when the reins have been completely turned over to him. This team is deeply flawed but James somehow masks those flaws. We could easily be 17-11 or 16-12 right now. The frightening thing is that the Big Three have played well or even really well in our losses.

Thats why he should his 4th MVP this year but you know the Media would likely vote CP3, Melo, Durant ahead of him.

LeChosen1 · Post #7 » by **LeChosen1** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:38 am

Because who else on this team can do anything besides shoot 3's(Outside the Big 3). Factor in Bosh doesnt get any plays for him if Bron or Wade or not on the floor and SPo seems to have Wade on a set Time Sheet so he and Bosh or rarely on the floor together for extended periods

DWadeno3 · Post #8 » by **DWadeno3** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:06 pm

The problem isn't just LeBron being on the bench, the problem is LeBron AND D-Wade being on the bench together a lot. This lineup with Cole-Allen-Miller-Bosh-center is not very productive offensively. It simply lacks the dribble penetration by one of Wade or James to initiate the entire offense. When the shooters or Bosh are hot, that lineup can keep us afloat until one of D-Wade or LeBron returns, but if neither is the case, we struggle to score. Cole is good at getting to the basket, but he's neither a great finisher nor a great creator, so he's not a big threat to a defense.

Miaheatfan3 · Post #9 » by **Miaheatfan3** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:39 pm

DWadeno3 wrote:The problem isn't just LeBron being on the bench, the problem is LeBron AND D-Wade being on the bench together a lot. This lineup with Cole-Allen-Miller-Bosh-center is not very productive offensively. It simply lacks the dribble penetration by one of Wade or James to initiate the entire offense. When the shooters or Bosh are hot, that lineup can keep us afloat until one of D-Wade or LeBron returns, but if neither is the case, we struggle to score. Cole is good at getting to the basket, but he's neither a great finisher nor a great creator, so he's not a big threat to a defense.

Totally agree, this second quarter starting lineup is working very bad last games, Spo should change a bit this rotation.

Zasterror · Post #10 » by **Zasterror** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:28 pm

Spo's rotations towards the end of the 1st and beginning of the 2nd quarter. 'Nuff said

Pimpwerx · Post #11 » by **Pimpwerx** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:27 pm

Wade just doesn't run the offense as well as Bron. We don't call many plays, and it's resulted in a pretty efficient offense. However, even when it's Wade and Bosh on the floor, we're just not as good as if Lebron is out there. I don't think we rely on him to carry us through games, but when defenses get tough, an the scoring gets difficult, we do flounder without him. Perhaps we could run more sets when Bron sits down, so there's more order to the offense, and we're not relying on Wade and Ray to make reads.

I love Wade, but I don't think the current system works to his strengths. I think I remember reading something last year about how Wade is getting the ball in different spots than he did before the Big3. He likes to survey the floor from a certain spot, and then begin his attack from certain spots, and he's just not able to do that anymore with the offensive system we run. Maybe running sets that Wade likes would be a solution, because Wade+Bosh should be a very productive tandem. Of course, this is assuming we don't already do that.

I will add that I got chastised, early in the season, for claiming that Bosh plays badly with Wade. I don't know if it's the frequency of touches, or spacing or whatever. I feel like Wade's slashing style might not work that well for Bosh, since it drags defenders into the paint, and at different angles than you get from Bron. Bron drives in a straight-line, whereas Wade crosses guys up at angles in the paint. I just don't see the Wade-Bosh pnr generating as much success as the Bron-Bosh pnr. Whatever the case, Wade+Bosh should be able to carry the scoring and defensive load plenty when Bron sits. There has to be a solution. PEACE.

Mutnt · Post #12 » by **Mutnt** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:53 pm

I don't know, but it seems to me that Bosh forgot how to play as the focal point of the offense and got to comfortable getting everything in the flow of the offense instead of initiating the offense through himself. When both LeBron and Wade are on the bench, Bosh needs to be getting plays called for him almost every time down the floor because all the other guys Spo puts in there with CB aren't competent enough to do anything other then spot up shoot, except Chalmers who is playing ugly ball right now, Cole who can drive but ultimately can't create for others, misses layups & jump shots or turns it over and Joel who not only has no offensive skills but can't even catch the ball to prove he sucks on offense... Thus Bosh needs to step up until Wade and sequentially LeBron return into the game.

It's either that or we need to tweak the rotations a bit, have Wade come out a bit sooner and then put him in to start the 2nd or 1,2 minutes after the 2nd quarter to help CB carry the offense until LeBron comes back in...

Funny enough, as bad as that Bosh centered/led unit has been on offense, they're even worse on the defensive end, but that's a whole new spectrum I don't even wanna get started on, although it's no rocket science that the old/slow/soft/banged up Heat lineup out there, headlined by Ray, Miller can't keep up with the hard and quick rotations the Heat utilize on defense... as if they aren't bad enough man & help defenders.

cb1 · Post #13 » by **cb1** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:05 pm

Pimpwerx wrote:Wade just doesn't run the offense as well as Bron. We don't call many plays, and it's resulted in a pretty efficient offense. However, even when it's Wade and Bosh on the floor, we're just not as good as if Lebron is out there. I don't think we rely on him to carry us through games, but when defenses get tough, an the scoring gets difficult, we do flounder without him. Perhaps we could run more sets when Bron sits down, so there's more order to the offense, and we're not relying on Wade and Ray to make reads.

I love Wade, but I don't think the current system works to his strengths. I think I remember reading something last year about how Wade is getting the ball in different spots than he did before the Big3. He likes to survey the floor from a certain spot, and then begin his attack from certain spots, and he's just not able to do that anymore with the offensive system we run. Maybe running sets that Wade likes would be a solution, because Wade+Bosh should be a very productive tandem. Of course, this is assuming we don't already do that.

I will add that I got chastised, early in the season, for claiming that Bosh plays badly with Wade. I don't know if it's the frequency of touches, or spacing or whatever. I feel like Wade's slashing style might not work that well for Bosh, since it drags defenders into the paint, and at different angles than you get from Bron. Bron drives in a straight-line, whereas Wade crosses guys up at angles in the paint. I just don't see the Wade-Bosh pnr generating as much success as the Bron-Bosh pnr. Whatever the case, Wade+Bosh should be able to carry the scoring and defensive load plenty when Bron sits. There has to be a solution. PEACE.

Agree with those points a lot.

Pimpwerx · Post #14 » by **Pimpwerx** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:21 pm

You know, I've gone on record in recent weeks as saying I'd like to see more of Miller in the rotation. Oh man, I don't want to see more of him with Ray at the same time. I just don't think that tandem can stop a nose bleed. They make everyone else work harder. I'm sure Spo saw Miller's recent impact too, and wanted to give him minutes, but pairing him with Ray is looking like a disaster. Worse than the Ray+Shard pairing.

TBH, I felt better when we played no defense and just tried to outscore everyone. At least we were getting good bench production then. This defense stuff is for the birds.

PEACE.

SweetTouch · Post #15 » by **SweetTouch** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:49 pm

Bosh goes possessions without getting the ball

You got guys making careless passes

homecourtloss · Post #16 » by **homecourtloss** » Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:23 am

jami0528 wrote:
kingjames623 wrote:I think you make a lot of good points. Somehow, some way, this team has become just about as reliant on James as the Cavs were, and especially this year when the reins have been completely turned over to him. This team is deeply flawed but James somehow masks those flaws. We could easily be 17-11 or 16-12 right now. The frightening thing is that the Big Three have played well or even really well in our losses.

Thats why he should his 4th MVP this year but you know the Media would likely vote CP3, Melo, Durant ahead of him.

He should be working on his 6th straight MVP this season in all honesty.

I'm really dissapointed with the failure to use Bosh effectively. He has shown that he has a diverse offensive game but all we use him for is 18 ft. jumpshots. We've had plenty of positive match-ups with Bosh facing up and sometimes in the post on the right side of the land where he can go left with that hook. We just haven't given him the ball when he has those match-ups to at least draw fouls. The problem is that the opportunity cost of giving Bosh thd ball is that Bron and Wade aren't getting it. Now he's not even rebounding.

DWadeno3 · Post #17 » by **DWadeno3** » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:41 am

We're the Cavs now? Those LeBron fans don't hold anything back to prop their boy up. The Cavs were never in our league talent wise. They were a good regular season team with their very good roleplayers to surround LeBron, but they never had the talent which could turn it on in the playoffs the way we did. The problem in the playoffs for them was, they depended so much on LeBron initiating their offense that it was too much for one guy to handle it all against teams with several star caliber players on their team. When it comes down to it, talent will beat you in a close game.

The reason we beat teams now isn't necessarily because we play better basketball. It's because we have players on our team who are above the rest. That's the reason Indiana couldn't beat us despite Bosh being out. That's the reason we've beaten Boston two years in a row even though they probably executed better than us. That's something those Cavs teams never could do. Mo Williams, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, JJ Hickson etc. were all very good role players, some even borderline all-stars at some point, but they weren't game changers a la Wade or Bosh.

With that being said, don't come in here and blow little problems out of proportion by pretending we're in deep s***. We're the defending champs, we've been to the Finals two years in a row and we have one of the best records in the league.

RexBoyWonder · Post #18 » by **RexBoyWonder** » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:51 am

Part of the problem is that we play players that can't create anything at all. Miller, Haslem, Joel, Battier - those guys couldn't score on a college team if LBJ isn't there to set them up for open shots and layups. We need more complete players that can make things happen. all we have right now is Wade, Bosh isn't good at creating action either.

Even Harris, which isn't a very talented player..but at least he can drive to the rim, play 1 on 1, create a shot.

CablexDeadpool · Post #19 » by **CablexDeadpool** » Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:14 am

Because Lebron is the offense

nbhadja · Post #20 » by **nbhadja** » Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:00 am

This is because we have no center. Get a f'in center it is by far the most important position!!!!!!!!! Our team has to work 3 times harder even with Lebron Bosh and Wade because we have no center. Lebron had to go in god mode last playoffs and lead us back from 3 series deficits because we have no center. Get us a center and we get 66+ wins easily.