RGM's Top 25 Most Valuable Players - Vote for #8

[comingbacktousa]

Harden is definitely more valuable than Love. Love would only be in the conversation because he is a big. Rubio to me is the most valuable player on the Min team. He clearly makes everyone around him better and is only in the 2nd year of a rookie contract.

[Narf]

V: Love
N: Drummond

If Rubio wasn't recovering from a serious injury, I would nominate him. I don't think Drummond is the best player left, but he has that new rookie smell and someone always overpays for potential.

[Narf]

What is up with the Love hate? Do people not pay attention to injuries and circumstance?
Love put up 20.2/15.3/2.5 with a .593 TS% 2 years ago and 26.0/13.3/2.0 with a .568 TS% last year, comes out with the injury bug, and Harden has a stellar month and now Love is not that good?

I LOVE Harden. Love him. But WTF is this you're only as good as your last month garbage. Love is having a bad month dealing with injury, I guarantee GMs didn't downgrade his value because of it.

[DeBlazerRiddem]

Why is thinking Love is less valuable than Harden considered hate? That has been my opinion for a while.


I have always thought Love is overrated by a group here because of his stats. I agree that Love is the second most valuable player on the Wolves. Harden is locked up for longer than Love is, plays at a position with less quality depth, and his contributions are translating into wins - something Love has struggled with. Adding to that, the things Love has said, his lack of defense and his down year, I think there are plenty of reasonable arguments for his value to be depressed.

Sorry, I don't hate Love, I just don't think he is as valuable as others do.

[Narf]

Why is thinking Love is less valuable than Harden considered hate? That has been my opinion for a while.


I have always thought Love is overrated by a group here because of his stats. I agree that Love is the second most valuable player on the Wolves. Harden is locked up for longer than Love is, plays at a position with less quality depth, and his contributions are translating into wins - something Love has struggled with. Adding to that, the things Love has said, his lack of defense and his down year, I think there are plenty of reasonable arguments for his value to be depressed.

Sorry, I don't hate Love, I just don't think he is as valuable as others do.

Resenting Love because he's the consensus best PF in the west and you think your guy should be is fine.
Thinking Harden has more value than Love is fine.
Making posts that say Love is only even in the conversation for value because he is a PF....that's worthy of a little constructive criticism in Narf world.

[DeBlazerRiddem]

Making posts that say Love is only even in the conversation for value because he is a PF....that's worthy of a little constructive criticism in Narf world.

I think the point was that when comparing Love to Harden, the main thing that might have Love in that conversation is that he is a big, and bigs are typically more valuable. I don't see where that is worthy of criticism, as most other arguments swing toward Harden, it is just pointing out the argument that swings Love's direction.

[shrink]

This is going to sound like a homer endorsement of Love because of where I live, but I (and lots of other people in MIN) am not his biggest fan. But I still think he has tremendous trade value for two main reasons.

1. Uniqueness. Last month Flip Saunders said that Love may be the most unique guy to ever play in the NBA -- with the possible exception of Larry Bird. It still sounds preposterous to me, but his point was that nobody in the NBA can do so much work on the boards, and also spread big men away from the basket as well with three-point shooting. If you do one, you generally don't do the others. I understand the NBA is changing, but Love's rebounding numbers have been historic.

Economically, value often comes from uniqueness. When southeby's auctions off James Bond's car, there is only one of them, and if people value that uniqueness, it drives proces through the roof. Now, I'm not saying a team couldn't trade for a different PF, and get one that may be better at defense and athleticism to boot. However, they aren't going to get more rebounds, and at the same time, get all that range.

2. Celebrity. The bottom line for an NBA team isn't just to win games, but to make money. Owners hope that doing the first leads to the second, but that isn't always the case. NBA teams provide entertainment, which they try to sell. This raises the value of players like Blake Griffin, but also, in a stats-driven sports community, the fact that Love could go for 30-30 any night is a big deal. Moreover, Love has been very public and accessable. Griffin gets extra trade value because he gets his face in front of Kia commmercials, and he begins to transcend the sport. Love can be seen everywhere, on the cover of video games, in commericals, sports science, the olympics, specialty events at the all star games. He's very well spoken and has a familiar (dare I say "white") face, which makes him stand out in this sport and makes him easy to market.

[shrink]

While I'm here - let me ask all you guys something that was running through my head this month.

Is there a good way to measure a player's popularity? I think there used to be something called a "queue" that compared celebrities, but I'm unfamiliar if it still exists. I considered looking at jersey sales, but that only applies to hard core NBA fans, and the "Most Valuable Players in the NBA" at this level better have an audience outside of hard core NBA fans. Maybe technology can help? Is there a list of celebrity names that have been twittered, or the most google searches?

It seems like there should be an obvious, universal way to compare these things, that don't involve me asking family members who don't like the NBA (actual conversation):

"Have you heard of Dwayne Wade?"

"No -- wait, isn't he in that song about New York? I bet you're asking because he's a basketball player. I thought the song was talking about "A Different World"

Ugh -- no more of that, please. Can anybody offer me some advice?

[Narf]

Making posts that say Love is only even in the conversation for value because he is a PF....that's worthy of a little constructive criticism in Narf world.

I think the point was that when comparing Love to Harden, the main thing that might have Love in that conversation is that he is a big, and bigs are typically more valuable. I don't see where that is worthy of criticism, as most other arguments swing toward Harden, it is just pointing out the argument that swings Love's direction.

Kevin Love was the #4 scorer in the NBA last year with very, very good efficiency and the #2 Rebounder at age 23. And it was his 2nd year at that level of absurd goodness. Harden is 23 this year, and he doesn't have even 1 year as the #1 scorer under his belt yet.

You are welcome to disagree, but in Narf World if you think "Love is only in the conversation because he's a big" you're doing it wrong. I've got no problem if you think Harden has more value, but Love is in the conversation.

[x-]

2. Celebrity.

James Harden is The Beard. Who is Kevin Love? That white guy who kinda looks like the average joe?

Sorry, but I just don't see how any of your arguments distinctively favor Love. If Rubio and Love are so popular, how come the Rockets were ahead of T-Wolves in road attendance % these last two years? Rockets were #9 last year, #3 this year. Wolves were #22 last year, #13 this year.
http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/sort/awayPct

Harden also has 300k more twitter followers than Love.

[HartfordWhalers]

While I'm here - let me ask all you guys something that was running through my head this month.

Is there a good way to measure a player's popularity? I think there used to be something called a "queue" that compared celebrities, but I'm unfamiliar if it still exists. I considered looking at jersey sales, but that only applies to hard core NBA fans, and the "Most Valuable Players in the NBA" at this level better have an audience outside of hard core NBA fans. Maybe technology can help? Is there a list of celebrity names that have been twittered, or the most google searches?

It seems like there should be an obvious, universal way to compare these things, that don't involve me asking family members who don't like the NBA (actual conversation):

"Have you heard of Dwayne Wade?"

"No -- wait, isn't he in that song about New York? I bet you're asking because he's a basketball player. I thought the song was talking about "A Different World"

Ugh -- no more of that, please. Can anybody offer me some advice?

Q scores are still around -- http://www.qscores.com/Web/Index.aspx

For what it sounds like what you are looking for, i.e. something more general and not top 5-10 players,there is likes on nba.com. Its a far cry from perfect, but not terrible?

(Twitter isn't great since that is interactive, and with some players much more so then with others.)

[HartfordWhalers]

Making posts that say Love is only even in the conversation for value because he is a PF....that's worthy of a little constructive criticism in Narf world.

I think the point was that when comparing Love to Harden, the main thing that might have Love in that conversation is that he is a big, and bigs are typically more valuable. I don't see where that is worthy of criticism, as most other arguments swing toward Harden, it is just pointing out the argument that swings Love's direction.

Kevin Love was the #4 scorer in the NBA last year with very, very good efficiency and the #2 Rebounder at age 23. And it was his 2nd year at that level of absurd goodness. Harden is 23 this year, and he doesn't have even 1 year as the #1 scorer under his belt yet.

You are welcome to disagree, but in Narf World if you think "Love is only in the conversation because he's a big" you're doing it wrong. I've got no problem if you think Harden has more value, but Love is in the conversation.

If Love wear signed to 4.5 remaining years guaranteed, I think he has a great case for leading this tier. But 2.5 years of Love locked in, or 5.5 of Harden, 4.5 of Blake? To me contract is the thing that makes him not belong at this level. His play this season has been off, (his attitude questionable), but those aren't going to make that much of a dent unless they remain/get worse. But for the same reason Chris Paul and Dwight are seriously dragged down, Love is as well -- at this level the more years you have a player locked up the better.

And I'm just not seeing the difference in on the court talent and marketability between Love and Blake soo big that it overcomes having Blake locked up for 2 extra years. Considering Blake is younger, having a better season, (offending his own fans less) and I would say possibly more marketable, even ignoring contracts it would look pretty close if not Blake already to me. But including contracts I don't see how someone concludes that Love wins out. Which isn't hating on Love, its still putting him what, top 10-12? and isn't even saying that he is a worse player.

[shrink]

2. Celebrity.

James Harden is The Beard. Who is Kevin Love? That white guy who kinda looks like the average joe?

Sorry, but I just don't see how any of your arguments distinctively favor Love. If Rubio and Love are so popular, how come the Rockets were ahead of T-Wolves in road attendance % these last two years? Rockets were #9 last year, #3 this year. Wolves were #22 last year, #13 this year.
http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/sort/awayPct

Harden also has 300k more twitter followers than Love.

I would imagine that the Wolves don't draw on the road because they have been a pretty bad basketball team, and don't offer a challenge to home teams on a given night. Harden being on TV all the time with OKC may account for more twitter - but maybe you're right.

Outside ways others can see them: Harden has the foot locker commercials (Love also in it on the 6-year inflatable yacht), Harden was a star in the NBA All Star game -- no that was Love. Harden was a star in the Olympics -- again, also Love. And has everyone seen that Sports Science show (not Love's Guiness book Three-Point record .. the one where he slams into a sumo wrestler?)? That's made for TV stuff.

You may be right though, that Harden's association with OKC has made him more popular .. at least with NBA fans. But like I said, at this level, I think you got to do better than just appeal to NBA fans. Meh.

[Guy986]

While I'm here - let me ask all you guys something that was running through my head this month.

Is there a good way to measure a player's popularity? I think there used to be something called a "queue" that compared celebrities, but I'm unfamiliar if it still exists. I considered looking at jersey sales, but that only applies to hard core NBA fans, and the "Most Valuable Players in the NBA" at this level better have an audience outside of hard core NBA fans. Maybe technology can help? Is there a list of celebrity names that have been twittered, or the most google searches?

It seems like there should be an obvious, universal way to compare these things, that don't involve me asking family members who don't like the NBA (actual conversation):

"Have you heard of Dwayne Wade?"

"No -- wait, isn't he in that song about New York? I bet you're asking because he's a basketball player. I thought the song was talking about "A Different World"

Ugh -- no more of that, please. Can anybody offer me some advice?

Allstar vote is a good indicator.

Harden is 4th among Guard in the West, behind Kobe, Paul, Lin.(rubio is 8th despite playing very few games)

Love is 6th among big in the West.

[shrink]

Allstar vote is a good indicator.

Harden is 4th among Guard in the West, behind Kobe, Paul, Lin.(rubio is 8th despite playing very few games)

Love is 6th among big in the West.

I don't know how people can't believe Lin has a lot of trade value.

Love's been hurt most of this year - the time when Harden progressed. Last year, Love had 373,000. Harden didn't even get a third that many. :: shrug ::

http://www.basketball-reference.com/allstar/NBA_2012_voting.html

[I Am Awesome-O]

Vote: Rajon Rondo
Nominate: Marc Gasol

[Bee-Fense]

V: Harden
N: Noah