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Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
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Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
I really don't understand how you guys are just seeing some of these things for the first time this year. He's been going from bad to terrible in the aforementioned areas for literally 3 seasons now.
What is even more perplexing is the people who actually believe these problems are new to this year. Did Dwight cause in influx of Laker fandom I am unaware of?
What is even more perplexing is the people who actually believe these problems are new to this year. Did Dwight cause in influx of Laker fandom I am unaware of?
Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
- AcecardZ
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Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
D Nice wrote:I really don't understand how you guys are just seeing some of these things for the first time this year. He's been going from bad to terrible in the aforementioned areas for literally 3 seasons now.
What is even more perplexing is the people who actually believe these problems are new to this year. Did Dwight cause in influx of Laker fandom I am unaware of?
Speaking of perplexing who was that guy in the Pau Gasol jersey playing for Spain during the 2012 Olympics?
Sometimes being wrong is awesome!!!
Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
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Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
A guy playing the center position who actually cared.AcecardZ wrote:D Nice wrote:I really don't understand how you guys are just seeing some of these things for the first time this year. He's been going from bad to terrible in the aforementioned areas for literally 3 seasons now.
What is even more perplexing is the people who actually believe these problems are new to this year. Did Dwight cause in influx of Laker fandom I am unaware of?
Speaking of perplexing who was that guy in the Pau Gasol jersey playing for Spain during the 2012 Olympics?
Pau hasn't cared about being a Laker since he came back from injury in 2011. Why the hell fans and management have ignored this ad nauseum is beyond me. Oh, and who called that his Olympic forray would ruin his season, as brittle as he's been in recent memory? Me, Cuban, and a bunch of people powerless when it comes to Lakers transactional discretion. So sad.
Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
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Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
I don't think it's been ignored. Pau has been heavily criticized since his meltdown in the 2011 playoffs.
It's obviously picked up as he's gotten progressively worse and especially since he's now consistently bad (whereas he had more good than bad even last season), but it hasn't gone unnoticed by most of the board.
It's obviously picked up as he's gotten progressively worse and especially since he's now consistently bad (whereas he had more good than bad even last season), but it hasn't gone unnoticed by most of the board.
"Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere." - Carl Sagan
Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
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Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
Perhaps by a small portion of Laker fans, but on the genera/PC board here, and even the popular Laker Forums (Lakersground and Clublakers) it has gone mostly unnoticed and un-criticized. People would rather harp on Kobe shooting 25 times or Andrew parking in handicap spots, partying late, and asking for more touches, than Pau's piss-poor performance since then. In fact, many posters on those sites and other boards here STILL believe him to be an all-star. It is flabergasting.
I understand giving him a slight pass for 2011 due to tired legs and the fact that, at the end of the year/against Dallas, Kobe was arguably just as bad as Gasol, but there is NO excuse for the 2012 and 2013 campaigns. NONE.
EDIT: I can only hope opposing NBA talent scouts & GMs are paying this little attention. And "more good than bad" is something we'll have to agree to disagree on.
I understand giving him a slight pass for 2011 due to tired legs and the fact that, at the end of the year/against Dallas, Kobe was arguably just as bad as Gasol, but there is NO excuse for the 2012 and 2013 campaigns. NONE.
EDIT: I can only hope opposing NBA talent scouts & GMs are paying this little attention. And "more good than bad" is something we'll have to agree to disagree on.
Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
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Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
In 65 games last season Pau had only:
- 10 games where he scored 12 or less (he's averaging 12.7 this season), which is really good for a 3rd option player
- 18 games where he had less than 3 assists, and only 1 game where he had 0 assists
- 23 games where he didn't crack 10 rebounds to go along with 7 games where he pulled in 9
- 25 games where he had more than 2 turnovers
- 26 games where he was below league average scoring efficiency
Anyway, the point is that he was still a really good offensive player last season. His defense was definitely not all that hot, but he was certainly an above average player. He also had to play 37.4 mpg which was the 2nd highest in his career, and ultimately I think that wore him out the same way that he was worn out the prior season.
I don't want to sit here and defend him too much because he's had his worst games at the worst time (the playoffs), but he hasn't been THE reason that we've been getting bounced in the playoffs. Our guard play outside of Kobe as well as having no shooters coupled with one of the worst benches in the league is what really did us in the past two seasons.
- 10 games where he scored 12 or less (he's averaging 12.7 this season), which is really good for a 3rd option player
- 18 games where he had less than 3 assists, and only 1 game where he had 0 assists
- 23 games where he didn't crack 10 rebounds to go along with 7 games where he pulled in 9
- 25 games where he had more than 2 turnovers
- 26 games where he was below league average scoring efficiency
Anyway, the point is that he was still a really good offensive player last season. His defense was definitely not all that hot, but he was certainly an above average player. He also had to play 37.4 mpg which was the 2nd highest in his career, and ultimately I think that wore him out the same way that he was worn out the prior season.
I don't want to sit here and defend him too much because he's had his worst games at the worst time (the playoffs), but he hasn't been THE reason that we've been getting bounced in the playoffs. Our guard play outside of Kobe as well as having no shooters coupled with one of the worst benches in the league is what really did us in the past two seasons.
"Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere." - Carl Sagan
Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
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Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
You're underselling how terrible a defender at the 4 he was, and I didn't go through his game-logs before I made my post, these are observations coming strictly from watching him play. I don't care about his volume scoring. His playmaking stayed elite-by-position, Andrew owes Pau a lot for his offensive his success last year. He was an absolute liability at a position of great defensive significance. The only time I remember complaining about Pau's rebounding was when he allowed himself to be embarrassed by a 6-freaking-6 ROOKIE on a consistent basis.
His efficiency-duress paradigm (AKA his conversion rate based on the relative ease of his looks at the basket) was terrible, there was no reason for his efficiency to drop the way it did from the title runs. Yes, he worked less in the post, but he also was awarded far more uncontested short jumpers and offensive putbacks thanks to the attention Andrew commanded on the offensive glass.
OGL hit me with a similar statistical breakdown of Pau's performance last season on LG. You aren't going to find most of his shortcomings in simple box-score analysis. Maybe that's why realgm seems to still believe he's some great player. The turnovers were an arbitrary addition though, nothing about Pau's role lends itself to being that of a high-TO player. And 40% of your games at below league average efficiency given his role and looks at the basket is actually an indictment of his play, not support.
He was merely adequate, slightly above average, which does NOT hack it when you're a L.A. LAKER playing with KOBE BRYANT getting paid 18+ million a year. Not. At. All. And I reiterate, 75% of what has been wrong with Pau's play the last 2+ seasons have been defensive issues, not offensive. Jordan Hill has been a higher-impact player since joining this team. That's friggin embarrassing.
His efficiency-duress paradigm (AKA his conversion rate based on the relative ease of his looks at the basket) was terrible, there was no reason for his efficiency to drop the way it did from the title runs. Yes, he worked less in the post, but he also was awarded far more uncontested short jumpers and offensive putbacks thanks to the attention Andrew commanded on the offensive glass.
OGL hit me with a similar statistical breakdown of Pau's performance last season on LG. You aren't going to find most of his shortcomings in simple box-score analysis. Maybe that's why realgm seems to still believe he's some great player. The turnovers were an arbitrary addition though, nothing about Pau's role lends itself to being that of a high-TO player. And 40% of your games at below league average efficiency given his role and looks at the basket is actually an indictment of his play, not support.
He was merely adequate, slightly above average, which does NOT hack it when you're a L.A. LAKER playing with KOBE BRYANT getting paid 18+ million a year. Not. At. All. And I reiterate, 75% of what has been wrong with Pau's play the last 2+ seasons have been defensive issues, not offensive. Jordan Hill has been a higher-impact player since joining this team. That's friggin embarrassing.
Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
- EnigmaticProblem
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Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
semi-sentient wrote:Indeed.
Gasol is 12-52 (23%) in the paint this season (outside of the restricted area). Last season he was 97-209 (46%).
He's 42-111 (38%) from mid-range, whereas last season he was 157-370 (42%).
Just a quick question-- Is the drop in percentage more concerning, or is it the fact that he's only averaging 2.2 FGA in the paint this season (outside the restricted area)? In contrast, last season, he was averaging 5.6 FGA in the paint (outside the restricted area), which is still not enough in my personal opinion.
I'm not defending Pau, and there's something definitely wrong with him. I don't know if it's physical or psychological, but he's not completely there. However, it's rather apparent that he was grossly misused last year, and he's being grossly misused now. When the Mavericks demolished the Lakers, a brunt of the condemnation was attributed to Pau; every deteriorating kingdom needs a scapegoat, right? In actuality, that year was simply the year of the Mavericks. No one could do anything to slow down Dirk; the diamond amoeba defense was absolutely suffocating; the offense, specifically the three-point shooting, was clicking on all cylinders. Pau was scapegoated despite the inevitable conclusion of the 2011 NBA Playoffs, and has sporadically recovered, since.
I believe his decline on the defensive end is a marginal decline; Pau Gasol was never good on the defensive end. Lamar Odom was an absolute beast for the Lakers during their remarkable playoff runs. He allowed Gasol to move to center, and had the speed and agility to cover everyone's defensive lapses. Moreover, he is exceedingly underrated in his ability to not only rebound the ball, but seal out rebounders to allow his teammates to get rebounds. Sure, there is a decline in Pau's defensive capabilities, but I believe it to be a marginal one.
Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
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Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
It really is quite simple, Pau is battling multiple injuries, is tired (played a ton of minutes last year in the compacted season, followed by the Olympics), and is battling normal age related issues. None of us can know how much each of those is hindering him as a player. Then on top of all of that he is forced to play PF in a system that demands a perimiter oriented stretch 4 for over 65% of his minutes. With so many variables in play, it is impossible for anybody to know how good Pau could play in the correct role, if you guarantee he is done, or guarantee he will resume being an 18/11 player you are equally dumb. However you are absolutely ignoring the facts if you don't see that Pau can no longer be successful as a PF on the defensive end, and is twice the offensive player at center as he is at PF, at least in this system. Pau needs to be a full time center, so it really makes no sense for the Lakers to keep him (unless they plan on trading Dwight). Pau should stop playing PF at all, and 48 minutes are simply not enough for Dwight and Pau to share. Pau's trade value has to be at an all time low, but I think that we can still get more useful parts in return for him. The one luxury that we have is that we can trade him without needing any specific position back due to our roster make up. We could trade Pau without even receiving any bigs back. MWP/Hill/Jamison at PF and Howard/Hill at center is probably better than what we have now with Pau in there (needing so many PF minutes, where he is abysmal), and it would be assumed that we would get much stronger at the 1-3 with the return from trading Gasol. It is time to pull the trigger on trading Gasol, but it also time to accept that none of us know what Gasol will be after the trade, and more importantly after an off season to rest and recover.
Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
- EnigmaticProblem
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Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
What I don't understand is why we can't post Pau up. If you post him up, while keeping Dwight on the opposite side of the key, where is the double going to come from? It won't be Dwight's man, 'cause that's an alley-oop waiting to happen; it won't be Nash or Kobe, 'cause those guys'll make you pay; that double is going to come from whomever is playing the SF.
There's no reason for us to be stretching the floor by throwing Pau at the the three-point line. We can easily have a very dominant offensive game with two post players, especially once you consider the fact that Kobe is barely posting up this year.
There's no reason for us to be stretching the floor by throwing Pau at the the three-point line. We can easily have a very dominant offensive game with two post players, especially once you consider the fact that Kobe is barely posting up this year.
Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
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Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
EnigmaticProblem wrote:Just a quick question-- Is the drop in percentage more concerning, or is it the fact that he's only averaging 2.2 FGA in the paint this season (outside the restricted area)? In contrast, last season, he was averaging 5.6 FGA in the paint (outside the restricted area), which is still not enough in my personal opinion.
I think both have to be concerns, but I don't really see how it can be addressed. The only thing Gasol really has working for him is his height. The guy doesn't have much lift nor does he seem to handle contact particularly well so that's affected his shots in the paint more than anything. If we featured him more in the post I'm not sure that it would make a huge difference, although his percentages would definitely improve overall.
His mid-range shooting has also been abysmal.
I don't really know how to solve his offensive woes. We have 2 guys that need to be in the post to be effective and one of them is going to struggle because of it, especially since we have a coach that historically doesn't like to post players up.
EnigmaticProblem wrote:I believe his decline on the defensive end is a marginal decline; Pau Gasol was never good on the defensive end. Lamar Odom was an absolute beast for the Lakers during their remarkable playoff runs. He allowed Gasol to move to center, and had the speed and agility to cover everyone's defensive lapses. Moreover, he is exceedingly underrated in his ability to not only rebound the ball, but seal out rebounders to allow his teammates to get rebounds. Sure, there is a decline in Pau's defensive capabilities, but I believe it to be a marginal one.
I would generally agree with that which is why I've petitioned to have Pau's minutes at the 4 and 5 split equally. I've even gone as far as suggesting that Howard defend 4's while he and Gasol are on the floor.
"Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere." - Carl Sagan
Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
- dockingsched
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Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
pau is done. god damn it hurts, i've been trying to hold on to hope for him.
"We must try not to sink beneath our anguish, Harry, but battle on." - Dumbledore
Can we put Pau back on the injured list?
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Can we put Pau back on the injured list?
2 points
4 rebounds
terrible game.
The guy has no lift in his shots. It is obvious he is not himself. His foot speed is slow on defense, can't jump anymore, looks like Luke Walton out there.
I think he needs to go back to injure list to rest his knees/foot. He is hurting the team playing.
Maybe bring in Kenyon Martin
4 rebounds
terrible game.
The guy has no lift in his shots. It is obvious he is not himself. His foot speed is slow on defense, can't jump anymore, looks like Luke Walton out there.
I think he needs to go back to injure list to rest his knees/foot. He is hurting the team playing.
Maybe bring in Kenyon Martin
Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
- Mamba Mentality
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Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
Off the top of my head I can think of atleast three opportunities that Pau got in the post tonight. They were a disaster to say the least. And oh yeh Blake Griffin just got out of his three game slump, wonder why.
1-6, 4 points, 4 rebounds in 28 minutes (-20). Not sure how much more proof you guys need to prove that he's washed up like no other. Cant wait till we trade him, its going to happen before the end of this season.
1-6, 4 points, 4 rebounds in 28 minutes (-20). Not sure how much more proof you guys need to prove that he's washed up like no other. Cant wait till we trade him, its going to happen before the end of this season.
1-800-SAVE-PAU
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1-800-SAVE-PAU
Other teams do this, and i think we have enough traffic here to make it work, particularly after big games.
what's next for this team? jordan hill was outstanding tonight, as was Kobe. Jodie Meeks should never, ever drive the ball to the hoop - though, fortunately, he's a an excellent FT shooter. Pau was, well, Pau, but at least, tonight, Antoni took notice.
We played some great defence down the stretch, but it kind of came apart once Dwight made that stupid foul and had to sit.
Not sure what to think of Ron guarding quicker 4's, certainly didn't look like he had the advantage that i (we) thought he would have against blake tonight, as he consistently put it on the floor and drove with success in the 4th - fortunately, they went away from that match-up down the stretch, which allowed us to get back into, IMO.
i'd like to see us start nash, kobe, ron, hill, dwight. and have pau play centre (w/ nash at PG) whenever dwight sits.
TL;DR
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCNUZnFcycQ#![/youtube]
Edit: Slava for the lolz
what's next for this team? jordan hill was outstanding tonight, as was Kobe. Jodie Meeks should never, ever drive the ball to the hoop - though, fortunately, he's a an excellent FT shooter. Pau was, well, Pau, but at least, tonight, Antoni took notice.
We played some great defence down the stretch, but it kind of came apart once Dwight made that stupid foul and had to sit.
Not sure what to think of Ron guarding quicker 4's, certainly didn't look like he had the advantage that i (we) thought he would have against blake tonight, as he consistently put it on the floor and drove with success in the 4th - fortunately, they went away from that match-up down the stretch, which allowed us to get back into, IMO.
i'd like to see us start nash, kobe, ron, hill, dwight. and have pau play centre (w/ nash at PG) whenever dwight sits.
TL;DR
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCNUZnFcycQ#![/youtube]
Edit: Slava for the lolz
Re: Lakers @ Clips PG Thread - Trade Pau pt. 3
- TylersLakers
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Re: Lakers @ Clips PG Thread - Trade Pau pt. 3
Trade Gasol that's it. Replace him for someone with some skills offensively who can get up and down the court. Whenever we need defense and rebounding (because Paus not giving it anyways) then put Jordan Hill in.
Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
- nashill
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Re: Pau couldn't start for any team
Pau for Cunningham and Budinger ???
and sign kenyon martin
and sign kenyon martin
Spurs.Grizzlies.Hawks.Bulls.Wizards.
Re: Lakers @ Clips PG Thread - Trade Pau pt. 3
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Re: Lakers @ Clips PG Thread - Trade Pau pt. 3
Trade Pau for the best deal,don't really care what we get back as long as they bring energy effort it should be a upgrade over Pau.
Dwight/Hill can start,and whatever we can get for Gasol in a trade would be a + for the bench.
Dwight/Hill can start,and whatever we can get for Gasol in a trade would be a + for the bench.
Re: Lakers @ Clips PG Thread - Trade Pau pt. 3
- dockingsched
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Re: Lakers @ Clips PG Thread - Trade Pau pt. 3
probably trade pau for anything right now
EXCEPT BARG OR AMARE
EXCEPT BARG OR AMARE
"We must try not to sink beneath our anguish, Harry, but battle on." - Dumbledore
Re: Lakers @ Clips PG Thread - Trade Pau pt. 3
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Re: Lakers @ Clips PG Thread - Trade Pau pt. 3
@Tyler - which is every possession... haha
i guess you move him for a PF, but i'm not sure who's attainable there that helps us right now. we need a 6th man desperately, IMO. more than we need a starting PF. we have enough offence to start, w/ Dwight, Kob, Ron, Nash and Hill - w/ his average 6.5 offensive rebounds per 36
i guess you move him for a PF, but i'm not sure who's attainable there that helps us right now. we need a 6th man desperately, IMO. more than we need a starting PF. we have enough offence to start, w/ Dwight, Kob, Ron, Nash and Hill - w/ his average 6.5 offensive rebounds per 36