Around the NBA part 2

[Falstaffxx]

Still don't see why this is a Lin v Felton debate when we could and should have had both. You can't really compare the two statistically because Lin plays off-ball like half the time for the Rockets, so of course his assists numbers are going to be lower and his TO numbers will be higher because they're not pace adjusted. But you're all forgetting that Lin is still basically a rookie based on the number of games he's played. If we drafted a PG in the first round and he averaged 12/6 (which is basically what Felton averaged his rookie year), we'd all be pretty happy about that, and extremely angry if Dolan gave him away to some team for free. Look how much guys like Holiday, Rondo, Westbrook improved since their rookie seasons. Lin still has the potential to be very, very good so I don't understand how anyone can be happy he's not on the team anymore, especially considering we only have one young player.

1. We couldn't have had both since Dolan wasn't willing to pay $50M in luxury tax.

2. Lin is 24.5. That's a player in his prime. He will not get much better.

3. Lin doesn't give this Knicks team anything it needs. The Knicks have thrived by taking care of the ball, shooting well and playing great defense. Lin can't do any of those things and that's why we would have had no use for him.

Lin has less than 2 seasons in the league, this "he will not get better" stuff is crap.

[ibraheim718]

I am partial on 3 but not with 2.

Lin is currently a 12/6/4 guy w/ 2 stls a pop and that's not bad for a 3rd year player. He definitely has room to grow and become better since Harden is his backcourt mate and he's definitely not a scrub. Many young players tend to develop much better when their team isn't saddled with a losing culture (Bobcats) or boneheaded teammates (WAS). Houston is littered with young talent and they are a winning ballclub - which is an ideal environment for personal growth. The same applies to rookies on a veteran winning team, where they can be mentored and groomed.

Boston had the big three and a developing Rondo, Knicks have Melo/Kidd/Tyson keeping Shumpert under their wing, Clippers with CP3/Billups and BG/DeAndre, the San Antonio Spurs, OKC, etc. When practices are tough, spirited and the team has ambitions and set goals it brings out the best in players. What this does is it also effectively puts everybody in line - otherwise you'll end up like DeMarcus Cousins. Like the old saying goes, "when you're winning, EVERYTHING tastes better."

With that said, I'm not delusional enough to think Lin is a superstar-calibur talent. But he certainly has room to become better then what he is currently.

You have to be given the chance to play to get better. It's not just looking at a guys age and slotting him into his prime as a player... Physically? Yes you can put a number on that. But he's definitely not saying that.

[Falstaffxx]

And Lin had a stretch of games as a rookie that Felton has never come close to.

[ibraheim718]

And Lin had a stretch of games as a rookie that Felton has never come close to.

What I love is how they compare the guy to 7 and 8 year vets... one of whom was a top 5 draft pick, as if it's some sort of insult to Lin.

[Falstaffxx]

And Lin had a stretch of games as a rookie that Felton has never come close to.

What I love is how they compare the guy to 7 and 8 year vets... one of whom was a top 5 draft pick, as if it's some sort of insult to Lin.

Yeah like Lin vs. Dragic...having similar years, yet Dragic has been in the league for 6 years.

[Falstaffxx]

And look at Kyle Lowry...been in the league for 8 years now. Didn't even reach 10/5 until his 6th year. Also shot under 30% on 3-pointers 4 out of his first 5 years in the league.

[Bravery]

You have to be given the chance to play to get better. It's not just looking at a guys age and slotting him into his prime as a player... Physically? Yes you can put a number on that. But he's definitely not saying that.

Sure.

I am well aware he is a troll. But yes, you do need to be given an opportunity to get better. Basically what I'm implying is, youth need the right mixture of talent and a healthy environment to thrive in, otherwise you'll end up like the batch of young Wizard players.

[Thugger HBC]

1. We couldn't have had both since Dolan wasn't willing to pay $50M in luxury tax.

2. Lin is 24.5. That's a player in his prime. He will not get much better.

3. Lin doesn't give this Knicks team anything it needs. The Knicks have thrived by taking care of the ball, shooting well and playing great defense. Lin can't do any of those things and that's why we would have had no use for him.

Heaping piles of garbage in this post.

This taking care of the ball is way overplayed also.. take the combined record of the 10 teams in the bottom of the league in turnovers and then take the combined record of the teams in the top of the league of turnovers and compare them and then tell me limiting turnovers is a straight shot to success. It's isn't.

Then mosey on over to Synergy and take a look at Lin's defensive numbers and compare them to the Knicks current starting PG and then come back and look stupid.

And then try and come in here and with a straight face tell me this team doesn't struggle to get easy buckets at the rim..

The point i agree with the above poster with is mainly the point #3, and really see no reason to compare him to Felton.

Our bread and butter is protecting the ball and making that open three, and getting stops late in games.

Two of those three things Lin just would not helps us in.

I've watched quite a few Rockets games as well, and in most cases, I can't truthfully say Lin's play is a reason why the Rockets win a game, and the fact he isn't either 1 or 2 in WS for his team cement that, is he even in the top 3?

His shooting has regressed, honestly can't hit a shot outside of a layup, and that isn't something that benefits any team.

Lin's strength is driving to the hoop, and making great things happen when doing so, and i seriously question if he can survive crashing into players all game long, he's got to learn how to play at different paces, like a player i do think he can be similar to in Tony Parker.

And for the most part he is not the primary facilitator or ball handler.

But overall, I actually put Lin in the same category as Felton, their teams are winning quite a bit DESPITE either player, and i like both of them.

The comparison between both players are quite silly at this point...neither are the definition of efficiency in their position when looking at their total body of work.

Statistically, they are their teams worst starters.

[Falstaffxx]

1. We couldn't have had both since Dolan wasn't willing to pay $50M in luxury tax.

2. Lin is 24.5. That's a player in his prime. He will not get much better.

3. Lin doesn't give this Knicks team anything it needs. The Knicks have thrived by taking care of the ball, shooting well and playing great defense. Lin can't do any of those things and that's why we would have had no use for him.

Heaping piles of garbage in this post.

This taking care of the ball is way overplayed also.. take the combined record of the 10 teams in the bottom of the league in turnovers and then take the combined record of the teams in the top of the league of turnovers and compare them and then tell me limiting turnovers is a straight shot to success. It's isn't.

Then mosey on over to Synergy and take a look at Lin's defensive numbers and compare them to the Knicks current starting PG and then come back and look stupid.

And then try and come in here and with a straight face tell me this team doesn't struggle to get easy buckets at the rim..

The point i agree with the above poster with is mainly the point #3, and really see no reason to compare him to Felton.

Our bread and butter is protecting the ball and making that open three, and getting stops late in games.

Two of those three things Lin just would not helps us in.

I've watched quite a few Rockets games as well, and in most cases, I can't truthfully say Lin's play is a reason why the Rockets win a game, and the fact he isn't either 1 or 2 in WS for his team cement that, is he even in the top 3?

His shooting has regressed, honestly can't hit a shot outside of a layup, and that isn't something that benefits any team.

Lin's strength is driving to the hoop, and making great things happen when doing so, and i seriously question if he can survive crashing into players all game long, he's got to learn how to play at different paces, like a player i do think he can be similar to in Tony Parker.

And for the most part he is not the primary facilitator or ball handler.

But overall, I actually put Lin in the same category as Felton, their teams are winning quite a bit DESPITE either player, and i like both of them.

The comparison between both players are quite silly at this point...neither are the definition of efficiency in their position when looking at their total body of work.

Statistically, they are their teams worst starters.

I don't see that when I watch Rockets games. I think Lin contributes a lot to their wins, even more so during the team's recent good stretch. I also don't get your statistical criticism of him, when his stats are good across the board except for 3-point %. I guess you can throw turnovers in there but I don't think that's significant.

[ibraheim718]

You have to be given the chance to play to get better. It's not just looking at a guys age and slotting him into his prime as a player... Physically? Yes you can put a number on that. But he's definitely not saying that.

Sure.

I am well aware he is a troll. But yes, you do need to be given an opportunity to get better. Basically what I'm implying is, youth need the right mixture of talent and a healthy environment to thrive in, otherwise you'll end up like the batch of young Wizard players.

I've seen where you're coming from the whole time. There is a level of rationality in the content of your posts that I have no problem understanding.

As for myself before the Harden trade I had him slated for a couple more assists a game.. around the same amount of points... 12-14ish... me personally I love the story, I like the person, and I like the way the kid plays... he entertains me. One thing about his overall passing and court vision that I like that goes unnoticed and I also see it with Rubio to a larger extent is the way he creates passing angles. If he peaked out at 15 and 8 at some point in his career I would call it, considering where he came from and the odds he faced a remarkable success.

[ibraheim718]

1. We couldn't have had both since Dolan wasn't willing to pay $50M in luxury tax.

2. Lin is 24.5. That's a player in his prime. He will not get much better.

3. Lin doesn't give this Knicks team anything it needs. The Knicks have thrived by taking care of the ball, shooting well and playing great defense. Lin can't do any of those things and that's why we would have had no use for him.

Heaping piles of garbage in this post.

This taking care of the ball is way overplayed also.. take the combined record of the 10 teams in the bottom of the league in turnovers and then take the combined record of the teams in the top of the league of turnovers and compare them and then tell me limiting turnovers is a straight shot to success. It's isn't.

Then mosey on over to Synergy and take a look at Lin's defensive numbers and compare them to the Knicks current starting PG and then come back and look stupid.

And then try and come in here and with a straight face tell me this team doesn't struggle to get easy buckets at the rim..

The point i agree with the above poster with is mainly the point #3, and really see no reason to compare him to Felton.

Our bread and butter is protecting the ball and making that open three, and getting stops late in games.

Two of those three things Lin just would not helps us in.

I've watched quite a few Rockets games as well, and in most cases, I can't truthfully say Lin's play is a reason why the Rockets win a game, and the fact he isn't either 1 or 2 in WS for his team cement that, is he even in the top 3?

His shooting has regressed, honestly can't hit a shot outside of a layup, and that isn't something that benefits any team.

Lin's strength is driving to the hoop, and making great things happen when doing so, and i seriously question if he can survive crashing into players all game long, he's got to learn how to play at different paces, like a player i do think he can be similar to in Tony Parker.

And for the most part he is not the primary facilitator or ball handler.

But overall, I actually put Lin in the same category as Felton, their teams are winning quite a bit DESPITE either player, and i like both of them.

The comparison between both players are quite silly at this point...neither are the definition of efficiency in their position when looking at their total body of work.

Statistically, they are their teams worst starters.

I don't agree at all. Just last night he was a big part of why they won... Nash went off in the first half.. Lin didn't and the Rockets were losing.. second half.. Lin went off and he shut down Nash and the Rockets won easily.

In the Bulls game on Xmas... sure they were hammering Chicago but Lin's ability to get to the cup so easily forced Chicago to sag and help which opened up the perimeter for the shooters. But like I've said before there is only one player that can unequivocally be pointed to as "the reason" Houston has been winning, if considering basketball is a team game, you wanted to do that, and that's Harden.

Against the Cavs it was Lin who made it a rough shooting night for their best player.

He hit the big three and got the big stop against New Orleans... these are just off the top of my head... contribute to wins he has.

As far as what he could've done for NY you're just focusing in on what NY does well and not what Ny doesn't do well. NY is a notoriously bad rebounding team... Lin would help there... NY is also a team that is reliant on jump shots.. not just threes... but overall the team takes a ton of perimeter shots and when those shots don't fall the team reverts to 1 on 1 play with Smith, Felton and Melo... Lin's ability to get to the rim and his ability to pass off of penetration to the paint (when Felton tends to get myopic on penetrations) would've helped Ny get a lot more easier buckets.

Lin is also a player that doesn't lose his composure... another area where NY is extremely lacking. But overall any GOOD player is going to be able to help any GOOD team. That's just common sense to me...

[Thugger HBC]

I don't see that when I watch Rockets games. I think Lin contributes a lot to their wins, even more so during the team's recent good stretch. I also don't get your statistical criticism of him, when his stats are good across the board except for 3-point %. I guess you can throw turnovers in there but I don't think that's significant.

How many Rockets games have you watched? I can honestly say I've watched over 25.

And I did say statistically, and the one's I value the most is PER TS and WS.

Harden's WS is 3x higher than Lin...currently.

Harden's PER is currently a few % points of being TWICE as much as Lin's....and one of the best in the league at his position.

Harden TS% is off the charts as well.

And this is just Harden, in these same categories Lin isn't in the top three in the other areas as a starter for his team.

The turnovers really isn't a discussion in truthfulness, he doesn't have the ball like he used to, but it definitely has improved.

[blumatic]

This Lin love is god awful. Its gagging. Those who bait are just as bad. I moved on. SO has Lin.

[Falstaffxx]

I don't see that when I watch Rockets games. I think Lin contributes a lot to their wins, even more so during the team's recent good stretch. I also don't get your statistical criticism of him, when his stats are good across the board except for 3-point %. I guess you can throw turnovers in there but I don't think that's significant.

How many Rockets games have you watched? I can honestly say I've watched over 25.

And I did say statistically, and the one's I value the most is PER TS and WS.

Harden's WS is 3x higher than Lin...currently.

Harden's PER is currently a few % points of being TWICE as much as Lin's....and one of the best in the league at his position.

Harden TS% is off the charts as well.

And this is just Harden, in these same categories Lin isn't in the top three in the other areas as a starter for his team.

The turnovers really isn't a discussion in truthfulness, he doesn't have the ball like he used to, but it definitely has improved.

Ibraheim made a much smarter post than I did, you should respond to him.

[ibraheim718]

I don't see that when I watch Rockets games. I think Lin contributes a lot to their wins, even more so during the team's recent good stretch. I also don't get your statistical criticism of him, when his stats are good across the board except for 3-point %. I guess you can throw turnovers in there but I don't think that's significant.

How many Rockets games have you watched? I can honestly say I've watched over 25.

And I did say statistically, and the one's I value the most is PER TS and WS.

Harden's WS is 3x higher than Lin...currently.

Harden's PER is currently a few % points of being TWICE as much as Lin's....and one of the best in the league at his position.

Harden TS% is off the charts as well.

And this is just Harden, in these same categories Lin isn't in the top three in the other areas as a starter for his team.

The turnovers really isn't a discussion in truthfulness, he doesn't have the ball like he used to, but it definitely has improved.

Where did he say Lin was contributing to ROX wins more than Harden has though?

[ibraheim718]

This Lin love is god awful. Its gagging. Those who bait are just as bad. I moved on. SO has Lin.

Bro let us have a conversation man!

[ibraheim718]

The truth is you want to get contributions to wins from all your players in the rotation.. especially your starting 5. Saying that he's not a big part of the reason why they're winning just doesn't do anything for me. The team is Harden-centric... but when they're not they're definitely Lin-Centric... the offense runs through him after Harden.. that's for sure. And the offense has been running through him a whole lot more than it was in the beginning of the season.

[Thugger HBC]

As far as what he could've done for NY you're just focusing in on what NY does well and not what Ny doesn't do well. NY is a notoriously bad rebounding team... Lin would help there... NY is also a team that is reliant on jump shots.. not just threes... but overall the team takes a ton of perimeter shots and when those shots don't fall the team reverts to 1 on 1 play with Smith, Felton and Melo... Lin's ability to get to the rim and his ability to pass off of penetration to the paint (when Felton tends to get myopic on penetrations) would've helped Ny get a lot more easier buckets.

Lin is also a player that doesn't lose his composure... another area where NY is extremely lacking. But overall any GOOD player is going to be able to help any GOOD team. That's just common sense to me...

I cut off part of your post because I just cannot gauge a player on a a game by game basis.

All players have great games, Lin has had some as well.

Our guards rebounding the ball isn't an issue at all, so no, he would help in an area that doesn't need it, our rebounding issues are up front.

And no, we rely on threes, not just jumpers, and how does Lin help that when he is dismal in that area?

Driving into the paint I've addressed as a huge strength, but he has to make a shot himself outside of the the paint as well in this system, which currently he doesn't.

He gets steals but I don't view that as defense, but merely an aspect of, we've had guys average alot of steals when D'antoni coached.

I also can't totally agree with the good player concept, lots of good players are bad fits on certain teams.

I'm not saying Lin doesn't help them at all, I'm saying they win games and he is not a main piece why.

Statistically like I have just said.....I take PER TS and WS to heart, Lin isn't close to leading his team in any of those.

My comments on Lin hasn't changed from the onset, I wanted the Knicks to match, by virtue of being a tradeable asset, not because of how I felt he'd be as a player, and I still feel that way today.

It does remind me alot of the Gallo convo's, I see this story going that same course, a good player, but not that guy.

[Thugger HBC]

I don't see that when I watch Rockets games. I think Lin contributes a lot to their wins, even more so during the team's recent good stretch. I also don't get your statistical criticism of him, when his stats are good across the board except for 3-point %. I guess you can throw turnovers in there but I don't think that's significant.

How many Rockets games have you watched? I can honestly say I've watched over 25.

And I did say statistically, and the one's I value the most is PER TS and WS.

Harden's WS is 3x higher than Lin...currently.

Harden's PER is currently a few % points of being TWICE as much as Lin's....and one of the best in the league at his position.

Harden TS% is off the charts as well.

And this is just Harden, in these same categories Lin isn't in the top three in the other areas as a starter for his team.

The turnovers really isn't a discussion in truthfulness, he doesn't have the ball like he used to, but it definitely has improved.

Ibraheim made a much smarter post than I did, you should respond to him.

As i have, but you commented so I engaged you as well, I am curious how many Rockets games you have honestly watched, you should be able to answer that part.

[Capn'O]

People really need a better grasp of probabilities. You just took on a very bad bet. Lucky for you, there's nothing real at stake, but I'm hoping you're a lot less overconfident when you make real life decisions.

Not at all a bad bet.

You are hedging that his poor early season showing is statistically relevant and I'm saying that's a load of crap. His current trend - being better integrated and more comfortable with the offense - is a better sample. Early season was an outlier. 14+ ppg on 45% is what we can reasonably expect from him going forward. That's a damn good bet. There is nothing to suggest his current production is a fluke and that 14 on 45% will pull up both averages.

The only one of the three stats where he has been fairly constant since November is assists. I'm a little bit nervous those might drop to 6.1 or 6.2. That would be so sad for me. Such remarkable regression

We're 50-50 at best for you.