RGM's Top 25 Most Valuable Players - Vote for #12

[vincecarter4pres]

Thats really reductive reasoning. I think what I actually said was pretty clear.

Well it was the 2nd or 3rd post you made in this thread wondering aloud about Aldridge's lofty rankings and though of course that was a touch sarcastic, it also seems to be where a bit of it is subliminally where it's coming from.

LMA?

He's young, about to go in his prime without any severe injury issues. He's on a super great value contract and is in the conversation for best power forward in the league. He's a very good 2 way player and is expanding into a truly gifted passer you can run an offense through. He can play the 4 or the 5, is about as clean a player as you'll find off the court and is supposedly a great guy in the locker room and solid leader. He's got 2 and a half seasons left on his deal with re-sign value and isn't the type of guy who seems to care too much about market as long as the team looks like a winner with upside. He's not super marketable from what we've seen, but he's also in Portland where he gets little national attention. He is becoming a household name. He has proven to be capable of leading a winner and winners simply sell tickets.

Personally I had him as the best 4 in the league last year and 2nd to only Dirk the season before that.

He's having something of a disappointing season this year and taking entirely too many jumpers even for a player who has such an absolutely elite one. But for the long term he's still an incredible player to build around if you have the means to pair him with another top player and a good supporting cast.

In comparison, I'd say a healthy Love is close actually on court with an obvious argument for being better and by marketability would have a lot more value, but his injury and my beliefs that he will be handpicking his next team by the next deadline, probably giving the Wolves a 2 to 4 team list severely limits his value to me.

[HartfordWhalers]

I found the LMA versus Love and LMA versus Lillard each interesting. Ditto for Love versus LMA and Love versus Rubio. Just broke off 2 topics with polls comparing their trade values, as I think almost any ordering of the four is justifiable but was curious to see how in a bigger poll environment it breaks out.

So... not to steal from the debate here... but ... take a look and vote. And feel free to debate them all there as well.

[comingbacktousa]

i would go rubio because i value the rookie scale and potential more than most voting but its pointless to keep voting for him every round until he wins.
V: Love
N:Ibaka

[FNQ]

Part of the reason I do not have a poll in this thread, but rather ask people to write in their votes is so that there is discussion. Some people give reasons and some people don't. But at least we get to see who is voting for who and if you want to ask them why, feel free.

Also, I don't think we are just "random people on the internet", we're pretty much a bunch of regulars on there that know each other pretty well. Using your logic, why are you even here on RealGM if you don't care about the opinions of us "random people"?

I realize this thread is rather meaningless in the grand scheme of things (as is pretty much any message board or post we put on here), but there is a market for it, and if it brings in even slightly more traffic to the board I think it's worth doing and worth us patronizing.

Also.. thinking back.. there's been plenty of discussion in these threads.. maybe not so much this particular one at #12, but I think there has been healthy discussion along the way.

It is still random people on the internet. What I mean is, its not like someone I can go up to IRL and ask. I dunno if I'm talking to a 10 y/o kid, or a 90 y/o elderly lady.

All I'm saying is that I would like to see a sacrifice in quantity for quality. Every single board I've bounced around to has just dropped a crazy amount in the quality of posts. And it matters to me because online forums are where I started learning more advanced things about basketball, and I want to continue to. But if people are just free to leave thoughtless votes and put no meaning behind them, its pointless to me. Like the guy below said, I don't expect people to care about my opinion either just because I have it. What's actually interesting - to me - is why I would have come up with it. Why am I landing on a different player than someone else who's put forth a thoughtful argument.

Isnt that what the trade board is all about? The rule is that you can't post a trade without a trail of reasoning behind it... why not votes? I don't see whats so bad about asking people to put effort forth on their votes and explain themselves.

[FNQ]

Thats really reductive reasoning. I think what I actually said was pretty clear.

Well it was the 2nd or 3rd post you made in this thread wondering aloud about Aldridge's lofty rankings and though of course that was a touch sarcastic, it also seems to be where a bit of it is subliminally where it's coming from.

thanks Doc

Truthfully I have a problem with a ton of the rankings. I'm sure most do, very unlikely that even 1 person is completely happy with the rankings. I think a hobbled Derrick Rose at 4 is a crackup. LMA is just an example - I couldn't even get an explanation out of anyone. 1 person gave reasoning behind it, and it was a comparison to one other player, and vague.

Knowing who has the most fans on here is pointless, a timekiller, something that doesn't result in much thought. Like I said above, its no different than trade threads. Whats wrong with people needing to justify their decisions and raising the bar as far as the quality of the thread goes? I may not agree with your take on LMA (next post), but I can at least see where you're coming from, and I can push my points to you, and the chance of you coming closer to my opinion and vice versa happens. Intellectual growth through idea exchange. Maybe I'm asking for too much, but the basic question, and the basic answer, from random people, just doesn't appeal to me.

[Sasaki]

I do agree with Nellie that more discussion would be nice, and I definitely don't like the Aldridge result either.

That said, I can understand it - most players on this board are either 1. really young and so you're not totally certain they're going to be stars/don't have much value to a winning team (Drummond, Lillard) or 2. more expensive, generally better but older players like Kobe or Wade. LMA is kind of in between. He's not so old that you actually have to worry about him declining anytime soon, he's established himself to a greater degree than the rookies/second-year players, and he's signed for a while. Rondo and Love are pretty similar and have been getting votes, but LMA has the advantage over Rondo due to being a big and the advantage over Love because he's not injured and doesn't seem to be a douche ( A friend of mine knew Love very well at UCLA and basically said that he was a giant prick.)

I still don't like it because I don't think Aldridge has been all that great and I REALLY don't trust the Blazers' record. But it's not that terrible.

[FNQ]

Thats really reductive reasoning. I think what I actually said was pretty clear.

LMA?

He's young, about to go in his prime without any severe injury issues. He's on a super great value contract and is in the conversation for best power forward in the league. He's a very good 2 way player and is expanding into a truly gifted passer you can run an offense through. He can play the 4 or the 5, is about as clean a player as you'll find off the court and is supposedly a great guy in the locker room and solid leader. He's got 2 and a half seasons left on his deal with re-sign value and isn't the type of guy who seems to care too much about market as long as the team looks like a winner with upside. He's not super marketable from what we've seen, but he's also in Portland where he gets little national attention. He is becoming a household name. He has proven to be capable of leading a winner and winners simply sell tickets.

Personally I had him as the best 4 in the league last year and 2nd to only Dirk the season before that.

He's having something of a disappointing season this year and taking entirely too many jumpers even for a player who has such an absolutely elite one. But for the long term he's still an incredible player to build around if you have the means to pair him with another top player and a good supporting cast.

In comparison, I'd say a healthy Love is close actually on court with an obvious argument for being better and by marketability would have a lot more value, but his injury and my beliefs that he will be handpicking his next team by the next deadline, probably giving the Wolves a 2 to 4 team list severely limits his value to me.

I wouldn't call Aldridge young at 27. Entering his prime right about now, and you wouldn't expect him to make the improvements a guy like Serge, or even Love (24) can.

My problem is that the stats don't match up with your description. Here is a guy that's really had one great season and a lot of solid ones. A low TS% for a big, doesn't get to the line much, doesn't board that well... I think I can comfortably name 4-5 PFs I'd take over him on a consistent basis, without a healthy Dirk. RAPM definitely thinks there are much better PFs than him, pretty much all measure of stats, advanced or not, ones that include intangibles or not... they all point to Aldridge being a very good PF, but not great.

For example, Josh Smith, Kevin Love, Blake Griffin, and Marc Gasol (even Millsap and Noah) are all deemed to be consistently higher caliber players via RAPM. Yes Smith is struggling, Love is hurt... but Aldridge is struggling too, so what's the difference to me? Why is a player like Blake, who is younger, more athletic, more versatile, more marketable, and on a better contract less valuable than Aldridge?

[JustinSane]

Vote: Rondo

Point guards are massively important in the modern NBA. Rondo is the best distributer and among the best defensive PGs, a proven winner, and relatively young. If Rubio were healthier, I'd have voted for him. Rondo is also a tremendous competitor. It'd be tough to imagine a team not playing hard with Rondo at PG.

Nominate: MKG

There are better players out there, but absolutely none younger, and his intangibles are outstanding. He also has terrific defensive potential. The rookie contract makes a difference here too - like all premier rookies, he's locked in for years at far below market value. His shot isn't a thing of beauty, but other than that there's not much to dislike about him or his game.

[Quackenboss]

Love
Curry

[Quackenboss]

Seeing as LMA only received 8 of 19 votes in the last round, it would be nice to either:

- Have an instant-runoff balloting system. I don't think it would be too much of a pain if we stuck to just first and second choices.

or

- Encourage people to change their votes once it's clear their choices aren't in the top-2 or 3 in votes.

I think we'd end up with a more accurate assessment and it would spice up the voting/discussion as well.

[9abovetherim]

vote: Curry
nominate: Rondo

[BayWarrior]

V: Rondo
N: Curry

[Quackenboss]

Not only does Kobe's giant salary make trades difficult, but the only teams who'd be looking to trade for him would be contenders and near-contenders who aren't going to have the hot prospects the Lakers would want. Plus Kobe's 34 years old. I just don't see how Kobe would bring back a trade package nearly as valuable as what guys like Westbrook, Griffin, Harden, Love, etc. would.

[Swimmer]

Not only does Kobe's giant salary make trades difficult, but the only teams who'd be looking to trade for him would be contenders and near-contenders who aren't going to have the hot prospects the Lakers would want. Plus Kobe's 34 years old. I just don't see how Kobe would bring back a trade package nearly as valuable as what guys like Westbrook, Griffin, Harden, Love, etc. would.

Everyone would trade for Kobe. Even for a couple years, even with his ginormous salary, marketing would be insane. However, he does have a trade block, so that kills some value..

V: Dwight Howard

Best center in the league. Friendly, fun, marketable. Injuries drop him a bit (down from maybe 3-5 range), to around here.

N: J. Lin.

Cheap(ish). Crazy marketable.

[Texas Chuck]

Everyone would trade for Kobe. Even for a couple years, even with his ginormous salary, marketing would be insane. However, he does have a trade block, so that kills some value..

.

No. Everyone would want Kobe sure. But how many teams can realistically trade enough salary and remain a good enough team that Kobe would even consider leaving the only franchise he's ever played for which also happens to be the league's marquee franchise? So that right there probably ends discussion. But lets say Kobe decides he justs wants to go for another ring to catch Jordan and hes willing to move. Still what team could trade for him and still be a contender? Maybe NYK(Amare,Camby,something) or GSW(Beans,RJ,Rush) or SAS(Manu,Capt Jack,Diaw)? But LAL would never take back those contracts and those teams dont have enough sweetner to make it happen.

Everyone would love to have him, but his contract, his legacy and NTC, and the Lakers needing return make trading him basically impossible.

[Sasaki]

Everyone would trade for Kobe. Even for a couple years, even with his ginormous salary, marketing would be insane. However, he does have a trade block, so that kills some value..

.

No. Everyone would want Kobe sure. But how many teams can realistically trade enough salary and remain a good enough team that Kobe would even consider leaving the only franchise he's ever played for which also happens to be the league's marquee franchise? So that right there probably ends discussion. But lets say Kobe decides he justs wants to go for another ring to catch Jordan and hes willing to move. Still what team could trade for him and still be a contender? Maybe NYK(Amare,Camby,something) or GSW(Beans,RJ,Rush) or SAS(Manu,Capt Jack,Diaw)? But LAL would never take back those contracts and those teams dont have enough sweetner to make it happen.

Everyone would love to have him, but his contract, his legacy and NTC, and the Lakers needing return make trading him basically impossible.

Except the same applies for everyone else. If Lebron James tomorrow decided that he wanted out of Miami, pretty much no team in the league could assemble enough value to trade for him and remain a contender in the process beyond 'I'm a contender now because I have Lebron". Determining these rankings by "Can a team realistically get this guy" is from my perspective simply ridiculous. And while Kobe's paid a lot, he'll make a lot for you and if you're that concerned, he's only paid for one more season after this. That short length is to me why I'm nominating him over Wade, who to me is pretty similar, and who I will vote for after Kobe's done, but is signed to a contract for longer and there's a greater chance that Wade declines over the next 3 years as opposed to Kobe declining over 1.

[Texas Chuck]

Not every player in the league has a NTC clause. Teams would still trade for elite players without remaining a contender because that player cant block it. The NTC changes things. Im not sure why dont understand this concept.