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Miami Heat @ Utah Jazz, Monday 01/14 9:00pm ET

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Re: Miami Heat @ Utah Jazz, Monday 01/14 9:00pm ET 

Post#701 » by LBJ-ITALY » Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:04 am

Panty Raider wrote:
LBJ-ITALY wrote:My godness! again with this stupid discussions about Wade vs Lebron?! This team needs both Wade and Lebron to win, and as a Lebron fan I think that Wade needs to be more involved in the offensive and he needs to have more touches!
We need, also, Bosh ! he has to move his lazy ass to grab more rebounds!
We need our role players and our bench to win! This is Wade team, because he was here before Lebron and I'm saying this as a Lebron fan! Yes, Lebron is the best player in the world, but Wade is the capitan of this team and we need him if we want to repeat this year!


Tell tale signs of the skilled troll.

An individual that prefaces his statements by claiming affiliation to one party (not once but twice), typically in a one against one comparison, while showering support on the other. It is a disingenuous attempt to mask true intent.

- What is really being said is… Listen to me. I am a card carrying member of this particular group or individual, so my support against that group or individual makes my opinion more valid somehow.
- What’s being omitted is... I am actually not being truthful about my affiliation, but I want you (reader on the fence) to side with me.

For added effect, the screen name tends to accentuate the claimed group/ individual affiliation.

Verdict: Bogus

-------

Gets me every time.


:lol:

No, I'm not a skilled troll! I have 37 years and I know what am talking about! Im a big Lebron fan, and I want him to win more and more, but Lebron can't do it alone like MJ couldn't do it alone !
Basketball as Football isn't an individual sport!
Great players win games, Great teams win championships !
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Re: Miami Heat @ Utah Jazz, Monday 01/14 9:00pm ET 

Post#702 » by DWadeno3 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:02 am

Mutnt wrote:
Panty Raider wrote:-------

In a perfect world Lebron would be the primary decision maker and ball handler while Wade functioned as the focal point of the offence. This would free up Lebron to do more damage on defense and make Wade feel more involved.

-------



This paragraph's thesis is somewhat contradictory because Wade can't be the focal point of an offense. Well, he can but would that really work better for Miami? If this took place, I'd imagine him mirroring Kobe's body of work for the Lakers. That's 48% shooting on high volume getting about 24 ppg clairvoyantly speaking. Would that really be better than what LeBron is doing right now? Who's shooting 53% by being the primary scorer. Bear in mind, Wade needs to have the ball and operate of the dribble because he can't score any either way apart from a few flashy jumpers here and there and he's not particularly good off-ball. Post play would also be an option. With that said, Wade would stagnant the offense with him carefully choosing his spots like he always does and more importantly, keep the ball away from LeBron who needs it to facilitate in your view.

I don't like this switch up. LeBron is definitely more dangerous with the ball, because he's a better, more versatile and more consistent scorer and also a better playmaker. He proves this every time on the court. The last thing I want is the Dallas series all over again where LeBron was disengaged and misused. Although Wade tore it up but that was 11' Wade who averaged 25 ppg on the season and was much better/healthier then current Wade.

I don't even think Wade & James are the problem. Miller, UD, Rio (apart from the last 2 games) and Battier are obviously not doing enough on offense, not the Big Three, who are obviously scoring at a career high FG%... Perhaps Wade should get a couple of shots more but absolutely not at LeBron's expense. We could push the tempo and get a few more shots up rather than milking the clock every time. I don't know, offense is one of my lesser concerns right now...


Do you even watch games claiming Wade isn't good off the ball and "post play would also be an option"? 43% of his shots are assisted according to 82games.com, 49% of his close range shots are assisted, do you think defenses just leave him open down there without him deceiving his defender with off ball cuts? Other than maybe Ray, we don't have a player on the team who cuts along the baseline and uses screens to shake off defenders as well as Wade does. Wade has never been assisted on that many shots, which is a result of him moving well and his teammates finding him. Either way it shows that he actually is good off the ball and doesn't necessarily need the ball in his hands to score. It's more so LeBron who actually needs the ball in his hands and is better than Wade with it because he's more of a Magic Johnson type of player who runs the offense, rather than a scorer who receives his assists off of the defense helping on him the way Wade plays.

Speaking of the post-game, somebody brought a stat last season that Wade was more efficient in the post than Dwight Howard. His post game is probably his biggest strength right now, he just doesn't use it often enough.

Overall I agree that LeBron on the ball and Wade off the ball is better for us because James is the better playmaker and D-Wade is the better slasher/cutter(blaming LeBron's finals struggles on Wade is ridiculous though). I also agree that we don't need to take shots away from LeBron but rather from our inefficient roleplayers, who don't appear to be capable of producing on a consistent basis. If a roleplayer is hot a la Rio in Sacto, feed him, but otherwise stick to the Big Three as your primary offensive weapons. The defense can't help on all three of them at all times, so there'll always be open looks for one of the three. I've said this several times this season, we like the three ball too much so we tend to get away from the Big Three.
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Re: Miami Heat @ Utah Jazz, Monday 01/14 9:00pm ET 

Post#703 » by Mutnt » Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:34 pm

DWadeno3 wrote:Do you even watch games claiming Wade isn't good off the ball and "post play would also be an option"? 43% of his shots are assisted according to 82games.com, 49% of his close range shots are assisted, do you think defenses just leave him open down there without him deceiving his defender with off ball cuts? Other than maybe Ray, we don't have a player on the team who cuts along the baseline and uses screens to shake off defenders as well as Wade does. Wade has never been assisted on that many shots, which is a result of him moving well and his teammates finding him. Either way it shows that he actually is good off the ball and doesn't necessarily need the ball in his hands to score. It's more so LeBron who actually needs the ball in his hands and is better than Wade with it because he's more of a Magic Johnson type of player who runs the offense, rather than a scorer who receives his assists off of the defense helping on him the way Wade plays.

Speaking of the post-game, somebody brought a stat last season that Wade was more efficient in the post than Dwight Howard. His post game is probably his biggest strength right now, he just doesn't use it often enough.

Overall I agree that LeBron on the ball and Wade off the ball is better for us because James is the better playmaker and D-Wade is the better slasher/cutter(blaming LeBron's finals struggles on Wade is ridiculous though). I also agree that we don't need to take shots away from LeBron but rather from our inefficient roleplayers, who don't appear to be capable of producing on a consistent basis. If a roleplayer is hot a la Rio in Sacto, feed him, but otherwise stick to the Big Three as your primary offensive weapons. The defense can't help on all three of them at all times, so there'll always be open looks for one of the three. I've said this several times this season, we like the three ball too much so we tend to get away from the Big Three.


Every single one of them FYI.

Well no **** Wade is having a career high in percentage of shots assisted on, is that surprising to you? Before LeBron & Bosh came he was basically THE offense, having the ball in his hands the whole time. Now it's different. We gotta distribute the ball between the Big Three and the shooters.

LeBron's a better offensive player and Wade needs to learn to play off him. Since his jump shot is broken (apart from every 6th,7th game when he hits a couple) all he can do if LeBron/others have the ball is cut or get in post position (which doesn't count as an off-ball play). Granted, Wade is a good cutter when he wants to be, I'd like him cutting more rather than shooting off-balanced floaties in the lane, but oh wel...Also, i don't know how you can say Wade is a better off-ball player than LeBron lmao. Just because LeBron has the ball and is the facilitator, thus making his off-ball play and % Ast'd less possible than Wades for example, doesn't mean he's a worse off-ball player. LeBron is probably the most rounded and efficient scorer in this league, sans Kevin Durant.

Again, I have no problem with how Wade is used in the offense. He showed that in the current scheme he had the most efficient FG% in his career (and that includes a couple of early season stinkers where he played injured). Should he get the ball more? Probably. But at who's expense? The Heat knew (or they should've) that by bringing Ray Allen this year he was gonna take a couple of shots away from the Big Three. That's what you get when you want an equal and evenly distributed versatile offense. You can't have have great wide open shooters on the perimeter being useful while LeBron, Wade and Bosh take 20 shots each. It doesn't work like that. Somebody has got to sacrifice some shots and seeing how LeBron is the best scorer on this team and Bosh is probably the best mid-range/spread the floor threat we have, Wade is the one. If anyone, Bosh should be bitching about the lack of shots on this team. He's having a career shooting year (by far) with 56FG% and he gets 12 shots a game lol. He doesn't even get plays called for him anymore but just floats around in the mid-range area and waits for the ball to shoot. The games are like a shooting drill for him on offense.

Wade can't bitch, it's his fault he couldn't develop a consistent shot in his career while Bron and Bosh could. Now Bosh was relegated to a jump shooting role player so that Wade can have the ball more and be more effective with his style of offense... On top of that, he gets lazy far to often. So stop babying Wade, I'm fine with him averaging 14 shots and 20 pts. He needs to get to the line more too (so does everybody else but ok).

Your Big Three should get more shots theory is also flawed. By this, you put more pressure on our three best players to create for themselves and go the distance. We already have to many instances where we play 3 on 5 offense... Isn't the point getting less pressure on the Big Three? I'm fine with ball distribution and finding the open player tactic, but the problem is the open player misses the ball far too often.
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Re: Miami Heat @ Utah Jazz, Monday 01/14 9:00pm ET 

Post#704 » by WiseOwlWins » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:35 pm

Mutnt wrote:
Panty Raider wrote:-------

In a perfect world Lebron would be the primary decision maker and ball handler while Wade functioned as the focal point of the offence. This would free up Lebron to do more damage on defense and make Wade feel more involved.

-------



This paragraph's thesis is somewhat contradictory because Wade can't be the focal point of an offense. Well, he can but would that really work better for Miami? If this took place, I'd imagine him mirroring Kobe's body of work for the Lakers. That's 48% shooting on high volume getting about 24 ppg clairvoyantly speaking. Would that really be better than what LeBron is doing right now? Who's shooting 53% by being the primary scorer. Bear in mind, Wade needs to have the ball and operate of the dribble because he can't score any either way apart from a few flashy jumpers here and there and he's not particularly good off-ball. Post play would also be an option. With that said, Wade would stagnant the offense with him carefully choosing his spots like he always does and more importantly, keep the ball away from LeBron who needs it to facilitate in your view.

I don't like this switch up. LeBron is definitely more dangerous with the ball, because he's a better, more versatile and more consistent scorer and also a better playmaker. He proves this every time on the court. The last thing I want is the Dallas series all over again where LeBron was disengaged and misused. Although Wade tore it up but that was 11' Wade who averaged 25 ppg on the season and was much better/healthier then current Wade.

I don't even think Wade & James are the problem. Miller, UD, Rio (apart from the last 2 games) and Battier are obviously not doing enough on offense, not the Big Three, who are obviously scoring at a career high FG%... Perhaps Wade should get a couple of shots more but absolutely not at LeBron's expense. We could push the tempo and get a few more shots up rather than milking the clock every time. I don't know, offense is one of my lesser concerns right now...



both lebron and wade are career 48% fg shooters.......just a fyi
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Re: Miami Heat @ Utah Jazz, Monday 01/14 9:00pm ET 

Post#705 » by ERRDAY3 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:23 pm

Mutnt wrote:
Panty Raider wrote:-------

In a perfect world Lebron would be the primary decision maker and ball handler while Wade functioned as the focal point of the offence. This would free up Lebron to do more damage on defense and make Wade feel more involved.

-------



This paragraph's thesis is somewhat contradictory because Wade can't be the focal point of an offense. Well, he can but would that really work better for Miami? If this took place, I'd imagine him mirroring Kobe's body of work for the Lakers. That's 48% shooting on high volume getting about 24 ppg clairvoyantly speaking. Would that really be better than what LeBron is doing right now? Who's shooting 53% by being the primary scorer. Bear in mind, Wade needs to have the ball and operate of the dribble because he can't score any either way apart from a few flashy jumpers here and there and he's not particularly good off-ball. Post play would also be an option. With that said, Wade would stagnant the offense with him carefully choosing his spots like he always does and more importantly, keep the ball away from LeBron who needs it to facilitate in your view.

I don't like this switch up. LeBron is definitely more dangerous with the ball, because he's a better, more versatile and more consistent scorer and also a better playmaker. He proves this every time on the court. The last thing I want is the Dallas series all over again where LeBron was disengaged and misused. Although Wade tore it up but that was 11' Wade who averaged 25 ppg on the season and was much better/healthier then current Wade.

I don't even think Wade & James are the problem. Miller, UD, Rio (apart from the last 2 games) and Battier are obviously not doing enough on offense, not the Big Three, who are obviously scoring at a career high FG%... Perhaps Wade should get a couple of shots more but absolutely not at LeBron's expense. We could push the tempo and get a few more shots up rather than milking the clock every time. I don't know, offense is one of my lesser concerns right now...

I get that Lebron is better at scoring and running the offence but if Lebron gave up on one of those to become much better in the other area the Heat would improve. If Wade focused just on playmaking and running the offence it might be better than having Lebron only put half of his focus on running the offence and the half on being the offence. Another way to look at it the Heat are getting 100% out of Lebrons talent and 20% out of Wades talent if they could get 60% of Wades talent and 80% of Lebrons they would end up being better.

I don't know why your saying Wade would stagnate the offence he's never been a guy that holds the ball and over dribbles it. When he was the main ball handler back in 09 and 2010 he always made quick decisions, stayed aggressive, and kept the ball moving. Which is why i think if they made Wade run the offence while making Lebron the main scorer both would be able stay in rhythm and get their touches.
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Re: Miami Heat @ Utah Jazz, Monday 01/14 9:00pm ET 

Post#706 » by DWadeno3 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:02 pm

Mutnt wrote:Every single one of them FYI.

Well no **** Wade is having a career high in percentage of shots assisted on, is that surprising to you? Before LeBron & Bosh came he was basically THE offense, having the ball in his hands the whole time. Now it's different. We gotta distribute the ball between the Big Three and the shooters.

LeBron's a better offensive player and Wade needs to learn to play off him. Since his jump shot is broken (apart from every 6th,7th game when he hits a couple) all he can do if LeBron/others have the ball is cut or get in post position (which doesn't count as an off-ball play). Granted, Wade is a good cutter when he wants to be, I'd like him cutting more rather than shooting off-balanced floaties in the lane, but oh wel...Also, i don't know how you can say Wade is a better off-ball player than LeBron lmao. Just because LeBron has the ball and is the facilitator, thus making his off-ball play and % Ast'd less possible than Wades for example, doesn't mean he's a worse off-ball player. LeBron is probably the most rounded and efficient scorer in this league, sans Kevin Durant.


Yes and the number of assisted shots shows he's far from the ball-dominant player he used to be and uses his off the ball skills more to score. Of course should it be higher, but you claimed he wasn't moving/playing well off the ball, which I countered with this statistic.

Regarding his shooting statistic, Wade is 41.2% from 10-15 feet on 1.6 attempts per game while LeBron is 41.3% on 1.3 attempts, does that mean his jumper is broken too? Wade's 39% from 16-23 feet are an area that can be improved, but hardly screams broken, given that this is the most inefficient shot in basketball.

Also, what does cutting have to do with off-balanced floaters? You can cut to the basket, receive a shot and still shoot an off-balanced floater, one thing has little to do with the other. What you're really trying to say is, you wanna get Wade off the ball more and not have him create anything. Given how he's still vicious on high screen and rolls, that'd just take a huge strength away from him and the team. If you purely want him to be an off-the-ball player, we might as well trade him for the likes of Kevin Martin, because that's something he'll never be. The question I have, however, is what did LeBron leave Cleveland for then? Mo Williams was an excellent off the ball player and so were Danny Green, Daniel Gibson, Jamario Moon etc. The reason those guys came together is to have multiple ball handlers/facilitators which can take the pressure off of one another. They all had the role of being the lone ball handler and they all failed (we played a fair amount off of Shaq when he was here).

Mutnt wrote:Again, I have no problem with how Wade is used in the offense. He showed that in the current scheme he had the most efficient FG% in his career (and that includes a couple of early season stinkers where he played injured). Should he get the ball more? Probably. But at who's expense? The Heat knew (or they should've) that by bringing Ray Allen this year he was gonna take a couple of shots away from the Big Three. That's what you get when you want an equal and evenly distributed versatile offense. You can't have have great wide open shooters on the perimeter being useful while LeBron, Wade and Bosh take 20 shots each. It doesn't work like that. Somebody has got to sacrifice some shots and seeing how LeBron is the best scorer on this team and Bosh is probably the best mid-range/spread the floor threat we have, Wade is the one. If anyone, Bosh should be bitching about the lack of shots on this team. He's having a career shooting year (by far) with 56FG% and he gets 12 shots a game lol. He doesn't even get plays called for him anymore but just floats around in the mid-range area and waits for the ball to shoot. The games are like a shooting drill for him on offense.


Well, given that he attempts much less shots a game, it's easy to have a higher FG% and given that we're only 32 games in, it's not an fitting comparison to other full season statistics. In 10/11, both his TS% (which takes free throw shooting into account) and his eFG% (which adjust for the fact that a 3FG is worth one more point than a 2FG) were higher than this year despite him attempting more shots. All those statistics can be found at hoopdata.com.

I was campaigning for both Wade and Bosh to receive more shot attempts. I'm tired of having inefficient players a la Chalmers, Cole and Battier attempt as many shots as they do while hitting them at the percentages they have. The solution to it is involving the Big Three more in plays with one another. Neither of them should be degraded to standing in the corner and watching, which happens all too often. You can use Wade, James and Bosh in screen and roll situation all game long with one another while presenting the other team with a pick-your-poison situation. The three point shot by one of the role players on the court should be our last resort. You even named Bosh yourself. Why is it that we often use him for spacing purposes instead of using him in multiple pick-and-roll/pick-and-pop scenarios?

This also takes me to Spoelstra's substitution patterns. I don't see any reason for him to leave one of the members of the Big Three out there by himself for several minutes. Those are the times when the other team can force us into outside shots and when they're not falling, our offense is stagnant.

Mutnt wrote:Wade can't bitch, it's his fault he couldn't develop a consistent shot in his career while Bron and Bosh could. Now Bosh was relegated to a jump shooting role player so that Wade can have the ball more and be more effective with his style of offense... On top of that, he gets lazy far to often. So stop babying Wade, I'm fine with him averaging 14 shots and 20 pts. He needs to get to the line more too (so does everybody else but ok).

Your Big Three should get more shots theory is also flawed. By this, you put more pressure on our three best players to create for themselves and go the distance. We already have to many instances where we play 3 on 5 offense... Isn't the point getting less pressure on the Big Three? I'm fine with ball distribution and finding the open player tactic, but the problem is the open player misses the ball far too often.


And when exactly did Wade bitch? When he took a step back to make LeBron more comfortable so that the offense would be more fluid (which it oddly isn't)? I'm not babying Wade (read other posts, I call him out more often than others do, but on better grounds), I'm just saying we're not using our offensive talent to full potential, including Bosh. Somehow, this game became another Wade bashing instance however.

You're contradicting yourself in your last paragraph. On one hand you say we have to find the open man to take pressure off the Big Three, but then claim the open player misses his shots too often? So your solution is to just pray for our shooters, who have been very inconsistent all season long, to just wake up and take pressure off of the Big Three? The pressure is there either way, whether we force-feed our shooters who don't hit their shots or whether the Big Three attempt more shots. I'd rather have more shot attempts for our star players than continue to feed players who've been very inconsistent all year long.

EDIT: One thing I forgot. The area that pisses me off about Wade is getting to the line/finishing within the paint. His shooting percentage from 3-9 feet is at 43.1% and was at 43.7% last year, whereas he shot 50.7% in 2010/11 from that distance and has only been under 50% once (47% in 2009/2010) in previous years. Often times, he'll drive and then attempt to draw a foul from that distance instead of focussing on making the shot and then receiving a foul as a bonus. You're much less likely to draw a foul when you attempt to do so because referees will swallow their whistle more often than not if you exaggerate the foul contact. That, and his laziness in certain games, are my problem with him.
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Re: Miami Heat @ Utah Jazz, Monday 01/14 9:00pm ET 

Post#707 » by jagz » Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:58 pm

Couldn't have said it better. Our 2010-2011 iso offense at least gave Wade and Bosh a chance to showcase their talents even though it wasn't a good style of play.


The best team in this era was the 2011 team. Here are the win/ loss records over the last three years.

2011: 58 - 22; 2012: 46 - 20 ; 2013: 24 - 11

In order to merely equal 2011's total, the Heat will have to go 34 - 11 the rest of the way on a team that has far more on-paper talent.

But, wait, didn't they win the championship last year? How was the 2011 team better then?

Well, first, pre-Decision Heat fans (probably less than half of you) can tell you without hesitation that the 2005 team was better than the 2006 title team. Second, look at the 2011 playoff series record-- until the Finals, they went 4 -1, 4 - 1, 4 - 1, and I would argue that the 2011 draw was tougher-- it took historic series from Wade/James to beat an injured Celtics team in the semis, which was then followed by Rose and the Bulls.

The Heat won last year, primarily due to an easier draw (although you could make the case that injuries to Bosh and Wade evened things out) and the big one-- because rather than savvy veterans like the Mavs, the Thunder were an inexperienced team who simply imploded.

What made the 2011 team the best so far, until the Finals collapse? My recollection is because they had two players, on opposite sides of the court, who could absolutely wreck teams. The distribution wasn't 1/2 or even 1a/1b. It was 1/1. That was what made them unstoppable until James froze against Dallas.

I still don't understand what prompted Wade to just step aside last year (unless physically, he knew he couldn't do it anymore). The championship ended up validating the decision, and ESPN and the rest of the media got what they always wanted all along. But, in my view, the title was merely a flukey product of the playoff draw and Finals opponent.

Meanwhile, I don't think Wade thought through the implications of his decision. He probably thought (correctly) at the time that he was makng the team-first choice. But, making arguably one of the largest sacrifices by a prime superstar in sports history, got him what?

1. diminshed current stature/ respect (compared to contemporary peers)
2. diminished place in history/legacy
3. diminished endorsement potential (when's the last time you saw a Wade commercial?; the deals aren't so plenty when you're not the face of a frachise anymore)
4. his own (professional) hometown fans turning on him
5. a team that at in least in terms of absolute wins/losses is now worse
6. a championship that should've been won a year earlier but wasn't due to the failure of the guy to whom he gave everything up
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Re: Miami Heat @ Utah Jazz, Monday 01/14 9:00pm ET 

Post#708 » by TheDon008 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:15 pm

jagz wrote:
Couldn't have said it better. Our 2010-2011 iso offense at least gave Wade and Bosh a chance to showcase their talents even though it wasn't a good style of play.


The best team in this era was the 2011 team. Here are the win/ loss records over the last three years.

2011: 58 - 22; 2012: 46 - 20 ; 2013: 24 - 11

In order to merely equal 2011's total, the Heat will have to go 34 - 11 the rest of the way on a team that has far more on-paper talent.

But, wait, didn't they win the championship last year? How was the 2011 team better then?

Well, first, pre-Decision Heat fans (probably less than half of you) can tell you without hesitation that the 2005 team was better than the 2006 title team. Second, look at the 2011 playoff series record-- until the Finals, they went 4 -1, 4 - 1, 4 - 1, and I would argue that the 2011 draw was tougher-- it took historic series from Wade/James to beat an injured Celtics team in the semis, which was then followed by Rose and the Bulls.

The Heat won last year, primarily due to an easier draw (although you could make the case that injuries to Bosh and Wade evened things out) and the big one-- because rather than savvy veterans like the Mavs, the Thunder were an inexperienced team who simply imploded.

What made the 2011 team the best so far, until the Finals collapse? My recollection is because they had two players, on opposite sides of the court, who could absolutely wreck teams. The distribution wasn't 1/2 or even 1a/1b. It was 1/1. That was what made them unstoppable until James froze against Dallas.

I still don't understand what prompted Wade to just step aside last year (unless physically, he knew he couldn't do it anymore). The championship ended up validating the decision, and ESPN and the rest of the media got what they always wanted all along. But, in my view, the title was merely a flukey product of the playoff draw and Finals opponent.

Meanwhile, I don't think Wade thought through the implications of his decision. He probably thought (correctly) at the time that he was makng the team-first choice. But, making arguably one of the largest sacrifices by a prime superstar in sports history, got him what?

1. diminshed current stature/ respect (compared to contemporary peers)
2. diminished place in history/legacy
3. diminished endorsement potential (when's the last time you saw a Wade commercial?; the deals aren't so plenty when you're not the face of a frachise anymore)
4. his own (professional) hometown fans turning on him
5. a team that at in least in terms of absolute wins/losses is now worse
6. a championship that should've been won a year earlier but wasn't due to the failure of the guy to whom he gave everything up



I swear to GOD!

This is the GOAT POST! Hit it right on the head!
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Re: Miami Heat @ Utah Jazz, Monday 01/14 9:00pm ET 

Post#709 » by fast-break » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:28 pm

jagz wrote:
Couldn't have said it better. Our 2010-2011 iso offense at least gave Wade and Bosh a chance to showcase their talents even though it wasn't a good style of play.


The best team in this era was the 2011 team. Here are the win/ loss records over the last three years.

2011: 58 - 22; 2012: 46 - 20 ; 2013: 24 - 11

In order to merely equal 2011's total, the Heat will have to go 34 - 11 the rest of the way on a team that has far more on-paper talent.

But, wait, didn't they win the championship last year? How was the 2011 team better then?

Well, first, pre-Decision Heat fans (probably less than half of you) can tell you without hesitation that the 2005 team was better than the 2006 title team. Second, look at the 2011 playoff series record-- until the Finals, they went 4 -1, 4 - 1, 4 - 1, and I would argue that the 2011 draw was tougher-- it took historic series from Wade/James to beat an injured Celtics team in the semis, which was then followed by Rose and the Bulls.

The Heat won last year, primarily due to an easier draw (although you could make the case that injuries to Bosh and Wade evened things out) and the big one-- because rather than savvy veterans like the Mavs, the Thunder were an inexperienced team who simply imploded.

What made the 2011 team the best so far, until the Finals collapse? My recollection is because they had two players, on opposite sides of the court, who could absolutely wreck teams. The distribution wasn't 1/2 or even 1a/1b. It was 1/1. That was what made them unstoppable until James froze against Dallas.

I still don't understand what prompted Wade to just step aside last year (unless physically, he knew he couldn't do it anymore). The championship ended up validating the decision, and ESPN and the rest of the media got what they always wanted all along. But, in my view, the title was merely a flukey product of the playoff draw and Finals opponent.

Meanwhile, I don't think Wade thought through the implications of his decision. He probably thought (correctly) at the time that he was makng the team-first choice. But, making arguably one of the largest sacrifices by a prime superstar in sports history, got him what?

1. diminshed current stature/ respect (compared to contemporary peers)
2. diminished place in history/legacy
3. diminished endorsement potential (when's the last time you saw a Wade commercial?; the deals aren't so plenty when you're not the face of a frachise anymore)
4. his own (professional) hometown fans turning on him
5. a team that at in least in terms of absolute wins/losses is now worse
6. a championship that should've been won a year earlier but wasn't due to the failure of the guy to whom he gave everything up

Up until 2010, Wade has failed to get out of the 1st round of the playoffs since 2006. Wade now has two championships. Wade has not "given up" anything asides ego. Not to mention he doesn't even carry the load anymore, he's added years (hopefully) to his career thanks to Lebron literally putting the team on his back night in and out. 2012 wasn't a championship that "should have been won in 2011", it doesn't work that way. 2012 was a championship that was earned. You can give cute stats about the def 2 years ago but the fact of the matter is they failed that year and now they are 2 years older, with new additions to the roster. What was before is not now.
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Re: Miami Heat @ Utah Jazz, Monday 01/14 9:00pm ET 

Post#710 » by GreenHat » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:49 pm

kevin2323 wrote:
Mutnt wrote:
Panty Raider wrote:-------

In a perfect world Lebron would be the primary decision maker and ball handler while Wade functioned as the focal point of the offence. This would free up Lebron to do more damage on defense and make Wade feel more involved.

-------



This paragraph's thesis is somewhat contradictory because Wade can't be the focal point of an offense. Well, he can but would that really work better for Miami? If this took place, I'd imagine him mirroring Kobe's body of work for the Lakers. That's 48% shooting on high volume getting about 24 ppg clairvoyantly speaking. Would that really be better than what LeBron is doing right now? Who's shooting 53% by being the primary scorer. Bear in mind, Wade needs to have the ball and operate of the dribble because he can't score any either way apart from a few flashy jumpers here and there and he's not particularly good off-ball. Post play would also be an option. With that said, Wade would stagnant the offense with him carefully choosing his spots like he always does and more importantly, keep the ball away from LeBron who needs it to facilitate in your view.

I don't like this switch up. LeBron is definitely more dangerous with the ball, because he's a better, more versatile and more consistent scorer and also a better playmaker. He proves this every time on the court. The last thing I want is the Dallas series all over again where LeBron was disengaged and misused. Although Wade tore it up but that was 11' Wade who averaged 25 ppg on the season and was much better/healthier then current Wade.

I don't even think Wade & James are the problem. Miller, UD, Rio (apart from the last 2 games) and Battier are obviously not doing enough on offense, not the Big Three, who are obviously scoring at a career high FG%... Perhaps Wade should get a couple of shots more but absolutely not at LeBron's expense. We could push the tempo and get a few more shots up rather than milking the clock every time. I don't know, offense is one of my lesser concerns right now...



both lebron and wade are career 48% fg shooters.......just a fyi


Fg% is pretty useless when one player has shot 1700+ more 3s.

Additionally one player came out of high school and one player came into the league at 22. Those college aged years really drag down Lebron's career efficiency.

If we just look at the last few years, which are the most relevant, Lebron has a sizeable gap in TS% and efg%

Not that it matters much. Offense isn't the problem so I don't know why the Wade/Lebron offensive role argument is coming out.

Our defense and rebounding need to improve.
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Re: Miami Heat @ Utah Jazz, Monday 01/14 9:00pm ET 

Post#711 » by GreenHat » Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:01 pm

jagz wrote:
Couldn't have said it better. Our 2010-2011 iso offense at least gave Wade and Bosh a chance to showcase their talents even though it wasn't a good style of play.


The best team in this era was the 2011 team. Here are the win/ loss records over the last three years.

2011: 58 - 22; 2012: 46 - 20 ; 2013: 24 - 11

In order to merely equal 2011's total, the Heat will have to go 34 - 11 the rest of the way on a team that has far more on-paper talent.

But, wait, didn't they win the championship last year? How was the 2011 team better then?

Well, first, pre-Decision Heat fans (probably less than half of you) can tell you without hesitation that the 2005 team was better than the 2006 title team. Second, look at the 2011 playoff series record-- until the Finals, they went 4 -1, 4 - 1, 4 - 1, and I would argue that the 2011 draw was tougher-- it took historic series from Wade/James to beat an injured Celtics team in the semis, which was then followed by Rose and the Bulls.

The Heat won last year, primarily due to an easier draw (although you could make the case that injuries to Bosh and Wade evened things out) and the big one-- because rather than savvy veterans like the Mavs, the Thunder were an inexperienced team who simply imploded.

What made the 2011 team the best so far, until the Finals collapse? My recollection is because they had two players, on opposite sides of the court, who could absolutely wreck teams. The distribution wasn't 1/2 or even 1a/1b. It was 1/1. That was what made them unstoppable until James froze against Dallas.

I still don't understand what prompted Wade to just step aside last year (unless physically, he knew he couldn't do it anymore). The championship ended up validating the decision, and ESPN and the rest of the media got what they always wanted all along. But, in my view, the title was merely a flukey product of the playoff draw and Finals opponent.

Meanwhile, I don't think Wade thought through the implications of his decision. He probably thought (correctly) at the time that he was makng the team-first choice. But, making arguably one of the largest sacrifices by a prime superstar in sports history, got him what?

1. diminshed current stature/ respect (compared to contemporary peers)
2. diminished place in history/legacy
3. diminished endorsement potential (when's the last time you saw a Wade commercial?; the deals aren't so plenty when you're not the face of a frachise anymore)
4. his own (professional) hometown fans turning on him
5. a team that at in least in terms of absolute wins/losses is now worse
6. a championship that should've been won a year earlier but wasn't due to the failure of the guy to whom he gave everything up


I agree with a lot of your points. 2011 and 2005 were better than 2012 and 2006 but people cling to their winner's bias.

I disagree with your assessment that we beat the Thunder because they were green and we lost to the Mavs because they had "veteran savvy". If you look those series swung on fluctuations on open three point shots. In 2011 we shot poorly from three and the Mavs shot amazingly. In 2012 we shot great on open threes and the Thunder shot poorly. If those things are switched we win in 2011 and lose in 2012. Saying it was experience is inaccurate.

Once again though the offense isn't the problem. We were third in offense in 2011 when we had that 1-1 offense you liked so much. We are third in offense this year.

Its the defense and rebounding that have fallen off. Should have nothing to do with offensive roles of Wade/Lebron.
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Re: Miami Heat @ Utah Jazz, Monday 01/14 9:00pm ET 

Post#712 » by jagz » Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:01 pm

fast-break wrote:
jagz wrote:
Couldn't have said it better. Our 2010-2011 iso offense at least gave Wade and Bosh a chance to showcase their talents even though it wasn't a good style of play.


The best team in this era was the 2011 team. Here are the win/ loss records over the last three years.

2011: 58 - 22; 2012: 46 - 20 ; 2013: 24 - 11

In order to merely equal 2011's total, the Heat will have to go 34 - 11 the rest of the way on a team that has far more on-paper talent.

But, wait, didn't they win the championship last year? How was the 2011 team better then?

Well, first, pre-Decision Heat fans (probably less than half of you) can tell you without hesitation that the 2005 team was better than the 2006 title team. Second, look at the 2011 playoff series record-- until the Finals, they went 4 -1, 4 - 1, 4 - 1, and I would argue that the 2011 draw was tougher-- it took historic series from Wade/James to beat an injured Celtics team in the semis, which was then followed by Rose and the Bulls.

The Heat won last year, primarily due to an easier draw (although you could make the case that injuries to Bosh and Wade evened things out) and the big one-- because rather than savvy veterans like the Mavs, the Thunder were an inexperienced team who simply imploded.

What made the 2011 team the best so far, until the Finals collapse? My recollection is because they had two players, on opposite sides of the court, who could absolutely wreck teams. The distribution wasn't 1/2 or even 1a/1b. It was 1/1. That was what made them unstoppable until James froze against Dallas.

I still don't understand what prompted Wade to just step aside last year (unless physically, he knew he couldn't do it anymore). The championship ended up validating the decision, and ESPN and the rest of the media got what they always wanted all along. But, in my view, the title was merely a flukey product of the playoff draw and Finals opponent.

Meanwhile, I don't think Wade thought through the implications of his decision. He probably thought (correctly) at the time that he was makng the team-first choice. But, making arguably one of the largest sacrifices by a prime superstar in sports history, got him what?

1. diminshed current stature/ respect (compared to contemporary peers)
2. diminished place in history/legacy
3. diminished endorsement potential (when's the last time you saw a Wade commercial?; the deals aren't so plenty when you're not the face of a frachise anymore)
4. his own (professional) hometown fans turning on him
5. a team that at in least in terms of absolute wins/losses is now worse
6. a championship that should've been won a year earlier but wasn't due to the failure of the guy to whom he gave everything up

Up until 2010, Wade has failed to get out of the 1st round of the playoffs since 2006. Wade now has two championships. Wade has not "given up" anything asides ego. Not to mention he doesn't even carry the load anymore, he's added years (hopefully) to his career thanks to Lebron literally putting the team on his back night in and out. 2012 wasn't a championship that "should have been won in 2011", it doesn't work that way. 2012 was a championship that was earned. You can give cute stats about the def 2 years ago but the fact of the matter is they failed that year and now they are 2 years older, with new additions to the roster. What was before is not now.


Ok, first of all, even the distribution now does not constitute LeBron "literally putting the team on his back". I think you better refresh your memory as to what life was like for both Wade and James before they started playing with each other to remember what putting a team on your back looks like.

Second, what you reduce to Wade not giving up anything aside from "ego," actually incorporates everything I mentioned in my post. Wade, because he's a side-kick, is now subjected to comparisons to the likes of Westbrook, Harden, and, God, some people even gave the Monta Ellis thing some credibility.

Wade was once a lock to go down as the third best shooting guard ever. Now, it's debatable whether they'll even consider him top five.

Wade once rivaled Marino as the most beloved sports figure in Miami. Now the "new Heat fans" wouldn't seem to think much of tossing him over the side (for his sake, part of me hopes it happens-- if Miami doesn't appreciate him anymore, you can be damn sure that plenty of other cities would, and the minute he goes back to #1 option, the MVP #s will return).

Wade is also sacrificing real dollars, because, like I said, he's not on the same plane of endorsement figures that he once was.

And once again, why? Because it made the team better? Not unless you discount W/L and go purely by the title. And then you're discounting the reality that the Heat had the 2011 Finals cinched but for the play of LeBron. So James costs Wade a legacy-cementing 2nd FMVP, but in 2012, he gets the redemption narrative, and the "goat" of the 2011 Finals is now in consideration for "GOAT" status. While the guy he shafted in 2011 steps aside-- so the goat can have a chance to become the GOAT-- and instead of earning respect for his selflessness, gets hated on and actually loses respect for it.

It's good to be King, I guess.
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Re: Miami Heat @ Utah Jazz, Monday 01/14 9:00pm ET 

Post#713 » by RexBoyWonder » Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:06 pm

GreenHat wrote:
Once again though the offense isn't the problem. We were third in offense in 2011 when we had that 1-1 offense you liked so much. We are third in offense this year.

Its the defense and rebounding that have fallen off. Should have nothing to do with offensive roles of Wade/Lebron.


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Re: Miami Heat @ Utah Jazz, Monday 01/14 9:00pm ET 

Post#714 » by TRG » Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:32 pm

jagz wrote:Ok, first of all, even the distribution now does not constitute LeBron "literally putting the team on his back". I think you better refresh your memory as to what life was like for both Wade and James before they started playing with each other to remember what putting a team on your back looks like.

Second, what you reduce to Wade not giving up anything aside from "ego," actually incorporates everything I mentioned in my post. Wade, because he's a side-kick, is now subjected to comparisons to the likes of Westbrook, Harden, and, God, some people even gave the Monta Ellis thing some credibility.

Wade was once a lock to go down as the third best shooting guard ever. Now, it's debatable whether they'll even consider him top five.

Wade once rivaled Marino as the most beloved sports figure in Miami. Now the "new Heat fans" wouldn't seem to think much of tossing him over the side (for his sake, part of me hopes it happens-- if Miami doesn't appreciate him anymore, you can be damn sure that plenty of other cities would, and the minute he goes back to #1 option, the MVP #s will return).

Wade is also sacrificing real dollars, because, like I said, he's not on the same plane of endorsement figures that he once was.

And once again, why? Because it made the team better? Not unless you discount W/L and go purely by the title. And then you're discounting the reality that the Heat had the 2011 Finals cinched but for the play of LeBron. So James costs Wade a legacy-cementing 2nd FMVP, but in 2012, he gets the redemption narrative, and the "goat" of the 2011 Finals is now in consideration for "GOAT" status. While the guy he shafted in 2011 steps aside-- so the goat can have a chance to become the GOAT-- and instead of earning respect for his selflessness, gets hated on and actually loses respect for it.

It's good to be King, I guess.


You're letting the media/bandwagoners get to your head man. The real Heat fans know Wade's true value to this franchise.

And overall I don't think Wade regrets forming the Big 3 at all. He knew what he was getting himself into when he decided to become the 2nd option. He gave up his own legacy for the sake of the MIAMI HEAT... Not for LeBron James.

And I as well as many other Heat fans will be forever grateful for that.
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Re: Miami Heat @ Utah Jazz, Monday 01/14 9:00pm ET 

Post#715 » by fast-break » Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:04 pm

jagz wrote:Ok, first of all, even the distribution now does not constitute LeBron "literally putting the team on his back". I think you better refresh your memory as to what life was like for both Wade and James before they started playing with each other to remember what putting a team on your back looks like.

Second, what you reduce to Wade not giving up anything aside from "ego," actually incorporates everything I mentioned in my post. Wade, because he's a side-kick, is now subjected to comparisons to the likes of Westbrook, Harden, and, God, some people even gave the Monta Ellis thing some credibility.

Wade was once a lock to go down as the third best shooting guard ever. Now, it's debatable whether they'll even consider him top five.

Wade once rivaled Marino as the most beloved sports figure in Miami. Now the "new Heat fans" wouldn't seem to think much of tossing him over the side (for his sake, part of me hopes it happens-- if Miami doesn't appreciate him anymore, you can be damn sure that plenty of other cities would, and the minute he goes back to #1 option, the MVP #s will return).

Wade is also sacrificing real dollars, because, like I said, he's not on the same plane of endorsement figures that he once was.

And once again, why? Because it made the team better? Not unless you discount W/L and go purely by the title. And then you're discounting the reality that the Heat had the 2011 Finals cinched but for the play of LeBron. So James costs Wade a legacy-cementing 2nd FMVP, but in 2012, he gets the redemption narrative, and the "goat" of the 2011 Finals is now in consideration for "GOAT" status. While the guy he shafted in 2011 steps aside-- so the goat can have a chance to become the GOAT-- and instead of earning respect for his selflessness, gets hated on and actually loses respect for it.

It's good to be King, I guess.

lol...You seem bitter and way too concerned with Wade. What about the other guys on the team that year who didn't win a ring? Speaking of other guys, what did they do that they couldn't have done better or were the role players awesome that year? If so, maybe we saw two different Finals because I recall a much different story. And yes, Lebron played nowhere up to his standards or style and it WAS costly...but not for JUST Wade but the entire team. A lot of guys on that roster could have played better and Coach Spoelstra could have done some things differently too but that was the result, Dallas as a team just flat out played better and won.

2011
Lebron did not perform to his standards...poor outing.
Bosh did not make much of an impact
Role players were non-existent

2012
Lebron was a complete beast...BUT
Bosh made a significant impact on the defensive end (so strange saying that now at his current state lol)
Role players stepped up and knocked down their shots (Battier and Miller were HUGE)

Again you're really way too concerned with Wade and what people think instead of the positives such as him being a 2time champion now. Wades comment of missing 25 shots was a little strange but I don't think he really values chucking over rings.
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Re: Miami Heat @ Utah Jazz, Monday 01/14 9:00pm ET 

Post#716 » by Grumpy Heat Fan » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:32 am

You guys are analyzing this too much.

Our problem is, we have no big man to rebound and play defense. That's it. That is a huge weakness for us. If we can solve that problem, a Center who is a scrub on offense but is a big body that can outrebound and play defense... the team will put up big regular season numbers.

AND to the guy who said 2005 team was better than 2006....... I completely disagree.

James Posey of 2006 was easily a better roleplayer than anyone we had in 2005 not named Alonzo.

JWILL was a better PG than Damon Jones. Or did you forget we used to call him Amon Ones ? Because he had no D or no J in the playoffs? Or how this little punk would call himself the best shooter, yet he tried to hero ball in clutch situations and cost us crucial games in the playoffs? You don't remember this huh? and you want to talk about real heat fans..?

Alonzo was still Alonzo.

I take veteran Gary Payton over Keyon Dooling ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. Gary provided experience, advice, leadership and CLUTCH play in the playofs, or did you forget his amazing play in the Finals?

GTOH with that "pre-decision heat fans will tell you 2005 team was better than 2006" No freaking way. 2005 team, without wade's freak injury, would have won the title, yes, but the 2006 team was better.
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