Harden who?

wiff · Post #1 » by **wiff** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:52 am

Is it safe to say that this team hasn't missed Harden at all? I know he is killing it in Houston. But the Thunder just keep rolling.

Maybe some advanced stat guys can compare this Thunders offense compared to last years Thunders offense and tell me which one is better.

Pretty sure Slick, Sonictecture, and bbms all thought I was crazy for wanting to keep Ibaka over Harden. Looks like the proof is in the pudding fella's.

Go bust out those advanced stats and tell me how much this team misses Harden.

PROVE to me this team is worse off.

bbms · Post #2 » by **bbms** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:21 am

The fact that this team improved doesn't exclude the possibility of the Thunder being better with Harden. There are a lot of more factors involving Thunder's improvement. Everybody is a bit improved individually. Westbrook, Sefolosha, Ibaka, Durant... That made up for Harden's departure. Does not change the fact that Harden's simply a clerly better player and talent than Ibaka and Martin. Harden getting traded pretty much tie Durant at the SF position.

Everytime I see this guy on the floor this season, just dominating in the post, it makes me think his future is on the post, anihillating heavier PFs with a face up game, dwarfing smaller forwards with his back to basket game... He could be something else...

Ibaka's improvement came out of nowhere too, did you really expect Ibaka could raise both volume and efficiency of his game at once? That he would be able score some unassisted baskets often?

Also, Brooks lose his unbelievable LeBron stopper in Harden. :lol:

Yet, this new Thunder team has to prove itself on the playoffs.

Durant 35 · Post #3 » by **Durant 35** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:59 pm

The improvements of Westbrook, KD and Ibaka are why.

wiff · Post #4 » by **wiff** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:33 pm

bbms wrote: did you really expect Ibaka could raise both volume and efficiency of his game at once? That he would be able score some unassisted baskets often?

Yes I did. He's a kid. He has a crazy high ceiling. Why wouldn't you think a 6'10" 21yrd old kid who spends most his days in a gym would get better?

Bigs don't really hit their prime until they are 25ish. Ibaka can be soooo good if he wants to.

I have been saying that for years.

bbms · Post #5 » by **bbms** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:58 pm

I expected it, but not so quickly. Last season he wasn't able to make a simple pick for Harden, now he has a legit pick and pop game with Westbrook, who isn't the best pick and roll guy...

wiff · Post #6 » by **wiff** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:39 pm

What about you Slick and you Tecture any comment?

wiff · Post #7 » by **wiff** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:57 pm

bbms wrote:The fact that this team improved doesn't exclude the possibility of the Thunder being better with Harden.

This is what I "KNOW". Harden left the Thunder got better.

You saying the Thunder might be better if Harden was still here is pure speculation.

I like to deal in things that are real. The Thunder getting better after Hardens departure is very real.

But at least you got more balls than Slick and Tecture, who apparently have no comment on something they were, at one point, trumpeting.

bbms · Post #8 » by **bbms** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:39 pm

Harden was much more valuable than Ibaka, and Martin have been together, this is not a speculation, this is a fact. Harden is now playing a top15 player in the league at worse. This is not speculation. Players like Taj Gibson and Kenneth Faried play better defense than Ibaka. This is not speculation. Might not be in terms of potential, but there are a ton of guys that could defend better than Ibaka. Al Horford is paid less than Ibaka to play better offense and defense. This is not speculation too.

wiff · Post #9 » by **wiff** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:18 pm

bbms wrote:Harden was much more valuable than Ibaka, and Martin have been together, this is not a speculation, this is a fact. Harden is now playing a top15 player in the league at worse. This is not speculation. Players like Taj Gibson and Kenneth Faried play better defense than Ibaka. This is not speculation. Might not be in terms of potential, but there are a ton of guys that could defend better than Ibaka. Al Horford is paid less than Ibaka to play better offense and defense. This is not speculation too.

Just tell me this, has OKC's offense improved this season compared to last?

bbms · Post #10 » by **bbms** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:19 pm

Come on, you're comparing a totally different environment... Sefolosha hasn't been an offensive liability, he's hittin threes on a significant amount of shots per game. Ibaka too. Our starting lineup is actually being good offensively, where it used to stink last season.

wiff · Post #11 » by **wiff** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:58 pm

bbms wrote:Come on, you're comparing a totally different environment... Sefolosha hasn't been an offensive liability, he's hittin threes on a significant amount of shots per game. Ibaka too. Our starting lineup is actually being good offensively, where it used to stink last season.

Totally different? The only thing that is different is that Harden is gone. How is that "Totally" different?

And you still didn't answer my question.

bbms · Post #12 » by **bbms** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:35 pm

Okay, nothing changed, we're better without Harden. Ibaka is the same, Sefolosha the same, Duant same, Westbrook, same old, Harden is not better than Ibaka... Harden was holding us back... Satisfied?

wiff · Post #13 » by **wiff** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:30 pm

bbms wrote:Okay, nothing changed, we're better without Harden. Ibaka is the same, Sefolosha the same, Duant same, Westbrook, same old, Harden is not better than Ibaka... Harden was holding us back... Satisfied?

That's better, but I was hoping for a "you were right" but that works.

bbms · Post #14 » by **bbms** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:41 pm

If that pleases you ears... :roll:

BirdmanPresents · Post #15 » by **BirdmanPresents** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:15 pm

I still think Harden > Ibaka, and don't necessarily agree that the Thunder are better without him but I agree that the team hasn't missed him. Martin was able to step into his role as a scorer off the bench. They do miss a secondary ball handler a bit, but I think they might address that at the deadline. The one thing Harden did very well was bring Westbrook under control by handling the ball during late game possessions.

In the offseason, Miami made moves and got Ray Allen/Rashard Lewis. L.A got Steve Nash and Dwight Howard. People where writing OKC off for a championship against these teams because Miami and LA had gotten better (ON PAPER we now know) and OKC hadn't made any big moves to get better (We will classify Martin as a lateral move). The advantage OKC had over LA and Mia that many people overlooked is every year that passes, OKC will improve due to their young core. Every year Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka improve and mature, Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Bosh, Nash are getting older, making it more important for them to improve from outtside the team.

To sum up:
Do I think OKC is better this season? Yes.
Do I think they miss Harden? No.
Do I think they are better without Harden? We will never know we can only speculate.

So Wiff you can use advanced stats all you want, but we will never know

wiff · Post #16 » by **wiff** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:34 pm

BirdmanPresents wrote:I still think Harden > Ibaka, and don't necessarily agree that the Thunder are better without him but I agree that the team hasn't missed him.

And that is exactly what I have been saying all last season.

It's much easier to replace Harden a 6th man than a starting PF who has a nice stroke is 6'10" and is a shot blocking machine.

And this OKC team has proven my point.

You can't give up your best big to keep your third best wing player.

I have never said Ibaka is the over all better player, I have always said he's much harder to replace.

But just about everyone thought I was crazy. Well who's crazy now Slick and Tecture? WHO'S CRAZY NOW??

Post #17 » by **slick_watts** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:21 pm

wiff wrote:
BirdmanPresents wrote:I have never said Ibaka is the over all better player, I have always said he's much harder to replace.

But just about everyone thought I was crazy. Well who's crazy now Slick and Tecture? WHO'S CRAZY NOW??

I still think this is crazy. Ibaka still hasn't exploded like everyone is waiting for, and Harden may even be taking another leap in Houston as the #1. How often does a team possess three top 15 players at once? Thunder could have. At least for one season.

The Thunder are playing very well and haven't missed Harden thanks to improvements from Durant, and the team trusting Sefolosha and Ibaka more to make shots they are capable of making. These changes could have occurred with Harden on the team, though, so I'll always wonder how good of a team we sacrificed by trading him away.

Post #18 » by **sonictecture** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:42 am

wiff wrote: I have never said Ibaka is the over all better player, I have always said he's much harder to replace.

And this OKC team has proven my point.

But just about everyone thought I was crazy. Well who's crazy now Slick and Tecture? WHO'S CRAZY NOW??

I have to consider you a little crazy for being so pleased with yourself.

OKC has proven they could trade Harden and that Durant and Westbrook and Martin could fill in the gap left by Harden during the regular season. Martin has a decent scoring average but a closer look reveals a lack of consistency and some big game disappointments. After last season this team should be measured by what they do in the playoffs.

I'm not convinced that this team would be any worse if they had kept Harden and traded Ibaka, but Presti certainly has earned the right to make the call he thought was right.

wiff · Post #19 » by **wiff** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:57 am

sonictecture wrote:Martin has a decent scoring average but a closer look reveals a lack of consistency and some big game disappointments. After last season this team should be measured by what they do in the playoffs.

Really Martin has had some big game disappointments and should be measured by what he does in the playoffs?

Lets call a spade a spade here Harden didn't exactly tear up the finals. Not really sure if a game can be much bigger than that?

If we are measuring by performances in the playoffs I think Martin has much smaller shoes to fill.

wiff · Post #20 » by **wiff** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:09 am

slick_watts wrote:I still think this is crazy. Ibaka still hasn't exploded like everyone is waiting for,

What is this explosion that you talk of?

I think my highest expectation for Serge were 16pts, 8rebs and 3blks. Unless they are going to give him like 38minutes a night.

I don't ever and have never seen him being a ten rebound guy because he tries to block everything in sight and it takes him out of position for boards. And I said this off season that I can see him getting a few more points with more touches on a team like the Bobcats but never saw him as a first or second option.

But if I'm not mistaken, even if others have been expecting an "explosion" from Serge, they still preferred to keep Harden over Serge.

So I think this explosion is something you have made up to defend your point which is all a myth. And if you think it's not a myth prove it. Who is the poster that was expecting this "explosion" from Serge that preferred to keep him over Harden?

Because it was pretty lonely in here when I was saying they should trade Harden and keep Serge.