Pick and Roll questions

[Penberthy]

1. Why don't we do it more often?
2. When we do it, why do we suck so bad?

[nashill]

1. Why don't we do it more often?
2. When we do it, why do we suck so bad?

almost all teams are using pick n roll. imo, the hardest offense play to defend.
nash/howard has been doing it but it doesnt work for them. howard need to roll hard.

[moonpie]

Our bigs set terrible screens.

[rsavaj]

Not trolling, just thought I'd share a video that shows how we ran the pick and roll in the 09/10 season

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPSpvdpnxUw[/youtube]

Thought it might give you guys some insight.

[gotokyo]

Our bigs set terrible screens.

This.

Dwight slips the screen before the defender even gets to him which results in absolutely nothing.

[Kilroy]

From that video, the Suns were all great shooters, spread the floor to the point that the only one even close to the paint was Amare, and Nash could hit anyone from anywhere.
Amare wasn't that much better than Dwight at setting screens though, or maybe more correctly, Nash never really goes hard at the screen.

We don't have the shooters to spread the floor, every player in our starting 5 aside from Nash is best in the paint offensively, and Nash isn't the player he was.

We can't play like those Suns.

One other thing of note, is that they were more of a half-court team than people give them credit for.

If that's how the FO wants us to play, we have to get rid of Pau and get shooters... A lot of them.

Dwight might be able to be Amare, but Amare had a mid range shot. Maybe Pau's a better fit at that, and Dwight needs to go...

Either way, it's going to require some trading.

[Penberthy]

From that video, the Suns were all great shooters, spread the floor to the point that the only one even close to the paint was Amare, and Nash could hit anyone from anywhere.
Amare wasn't that much better than Dwight at setting screens though, or maybe more correctly, Nash never really goes hard at the screen.

We don't have the shooters to spread the floor, every player in our starting 5 aside from Nash is best in the paint offensively, and Nash isn't the player he was.

We can't play like those Suns.

One other thing of note, is that they were more of a half-court team than people give them credit for.

If that's how the FO wants us to play, we have to get rid of Pau and get shooters... A lot of them.

Dwight might be able to be Amare, but Amare had a mid range shot. Maybe Pau's a better fit at that, and Dwight needs to go...

Either way, it's going to require some trading.

The other thing is that you never see the ball stop on those PHX teams. With us, the ball dies when it gets to Kobe, and when the guards pick it up to try to dump it in low.

[DEEP3CL]

Get off that it's the hardest play to defend. You can shut that sh*t down with crisp rotations and strong traps on the guard. For example if you blitz the guard hard, the weak side has to be watching. The roll man needs to be picked up by the closes weak side defender to keep him from going straight to the basket. If the back side of the defense is paying attention, you can set the roller up for charges all day.

[Minge]

Not trolling, just thought I'd share a video that shows how we ran the pick and roll in the 09/10 season

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPSpvdpnxUw[/youtube]

Thought it might give you guys some insight.

Just look at how little penetration Nash makes off the dribble. Everything is a pass, and for much of that video, not even into the post. Tex Winter, now in the Hall of Fame, said that post-entry can be achieved via: dribble-drive, entry-pass, or missed-shot (offensive-rebound).

In that regard, Nash is one-dimensional.

[rsavaj]

Not trolling, just thought I'd share a video that shows how we ran the pick and roll in the 09/10 season

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPSpvdpnxUw[/youtube]

Thought it might give you guys some insight.

Just look at how little penetration Nash makes off the dribble. Everything is a pass, and for much of that video, not even into the post. Tex Winter, now in the Hall of Fame, said that post-entry can be achieved via: dribble-drive, entry-pass, or missed-shot (offensive-rebound).

In that regard, Nash is one-dimensional.

He hasn't been able to get to the rim effectively(consistently) since like...08 or 09.

[JustAwesome]

Get off that it's the hardest play to defend. You can shut that sh*t down with crisp rotations and strong traps on the guard. For example if you blitz the guard hard, the weak side has to be watching. The roll man needs to be picked up by the closes weak side defender to keep him from going straight to the basket. If the back side of the defense is paying attention, you can set the roller up for charges all day.

What play do you consider to be harder to defend?

[DEEP3CL]

Get off that it's the hardest play to defend. You can shut that sh*t down with crisp rotations and strong traps on the guard. For example if you blitz the guard hard, the weak side has to be watching. The roll man needs to be picked up by the closes weak side defender to keep him from going straight to the basket. If the back side of the defense is paying attention, you can set the roller up for charges all day.

What play do you consider to be harder to defend?

Counters off ball reversals are more difficult. Once a defense is put in scramble mode it's a wrap.

It's ok for guys to think the pick and roll is hard to defend. But I've played enough and coached enough organized ball to know it can be stopped. It can be stopped at the pro level also, players have to be willing to trust and rotate well.

[hazy_01]

Those Amare screens looks very similar to the screens Dwight is setting, perhaps, he is doing what he is asked to do? I hate to defend Dwight but I really think is a matter of both the right mix of players and the coach's inability to make adjustments. As shown in the video, Suns have all 3 legit 3pt shooters surrounding Amare and Nash, Lakers don't have that kind of spacing with Pau, Clark or Jamison.

If you watch the Knicks offensive sets, Woodson uses Tyson Chandler primarily as a screener and rarely in 1 on 1 post-up situations. If you are going to run the D'antoni style offense, Dwight has to limit his role to become like Tyson Chandler as bad as that sounds. You just can't have 2 centers in this fast-paced system.

Overall, Lakers need to decide what they need to do in terms of ether ditching D'antoni (implementing a half-court offense) or trading for more perimeter-oriented players (ex. Monta/Dunleavy/Ilysova for Pau/Duhon).

[TheFix]

Dwight thinks he's better posting up than in the pick and roll, which he's not.

Kobe thinks the team is better off with him hoisting mid-range jumpers than going to a Nash-big pick and roll, which the team is not.

Egos are getting in the way of success.

[milesfides]

Lakers aren't running the pick and roll well at all.

Why?

Because key to the pick and roll is creating indecision and hesitation that frees up a high percentage shot.

1) Nash is hesitant to shoot his jumper off the screen
2) Nash doesn't have the footspeed to get past the opponent big man on the screen
3) Howard cannot pick and pop for the jumper
4) Howard has been just average at rolling to the basket, because he hasn't shown the kind of athleticism that we've seen in the past, and he's getting stripped at a career-high rate, and defenses have immunity because Dwight is a liability on the free throw line.
5) Dwight has also been called for a lot of moving picks

So the pick and roll loses it's potency with Nash's current physical state (old and/or hurt) and Dwight (hurt and/or limited offensive game).

The Lakers have tried to run this. It's not working well at all.

[supaflash]

Miami destroyed our pick and roll with all those hard hedges, which has been one thing we have been either unwilling or unable to do. I personally thought that's what Dwight would be able to do. With Dwight, Clark, and Metta out there teams should not be able to pick and roll us very well if they were coached properly.

As far as us doing it I almost think we should go back to Kobe running it with Gasol, with Nash and Metta at the spacing spots and Dwight on that baseline flash ala Lamar. Kobe is the only real threat to both pull up on the screen or get to the bucket and score, Pau can pop and roll better then Dwight and both he and Kobe are good at getting the lob or touch pass to Dwight cutting in as the defense adjusts. We ran that pretty effectively all last year with Blake, **** MWP, and drew, you would think we could run it way better with this group.

[semi-sentient]

Get off that it's the hardest play to defend. You can shut that sh*t down with crisp rotations and strong traps on the guard. For example if you blitz the guard hard, the weak side has to be watching. The roll man needs to be picked up by the closes weak side defender to keep him from going straight to the basket. If the back side of the defense is paying attention, you can set the roller up for charges all day.

Yep, and that's exactly how the Heat played us. They trapped Nash every time and there was always a guy ready to pick up the roll man. Hell Nash couldn't even get it to the roll man because their traps were so damn good.

[IamBBAnalysis]

Lakers aren't running the pick and roll well at all.

Why?

Because key to the pick and roll is creating indecision and hesitation that frees up a high percentage shot.

1) Nash is hesitant to shoot his jumper off the screen
2) Nash doesn't have the footspeed to get past the opponent big man on the screen
3) Howard cannot pick and pop for the jumper
4) Howard has been just average at rolling to the basket, because he hasn't shown the kind of athleticism that we've seen in the past, and he's getting stripped at a career-high rate, and defenses have immunity because Dwight is a liability on the free throw line.
5) Dwight has also been called for a lot of moving picks

So the pick and roll loses it's potency with Nash's current physical state (old and/or hurt) and Dwight (hurt and/or limited offensive game).

The Lakers have tried to run this. It's not working well at all.

That's correct but its the shooters and spacing too. When Nash does find guys for clean mid looks (this seems to happen most often off the pick and roll) the guys are either not shooting or missing. Clark, Kobe, Artest, and Gasol do not catch and shoot with confidence.

And in general the catch and shoot players on this team are not catching and/or rotating the ball properly. So basically everything that can be done poorly in the pick and roll is being done by this Lakers team. Pretty impressive really.

[Kilroy]

Yeah...
Pau catches, looks for a pass, and shoots as a last recourse.
Kobe catches, dribbles, posts up, and shoots.
Artest only catches and shoots rarely. Most of the time he catches, dribbles and shoots.
Clark catches, drives and shoots.

The only real catch and shooter on the team is Meeks, but he's a black-hole and an inefficient one at that.

It sure seems like for Nash to be truly effective, he needs guys to catch and shoot and make at a high clip. It not only spreads the floor for guys like Dwight, but it keeps the defense from collapsing on Nash as well.

[IamBBAnalysis]

Get off that it's the hardest play to defend. You can shut that sh*t down with crisp rotations and strong traps on the guard. For example if you blitz the guard hard, the weak side has to be watching. The roll man needs to be picked up by the closes weak side defender to keep him from going straight to the basket. If the back side of the defense is paying attention, you can set the roller up for charges all day.

Yep, and that's exactly how the Heat played us. They trapped Nash every time and there was always a guy ready to pick up the roll man. Hell Nash couldn't even get it to the roll man because their traps were so damn good.

Lol, and its a simple thing to counter when you plan for it. You have to put two players on offense in the right position to catch a pass when the guard is trapped hard off the pick. You put the first guy top of the key and then the guy in the close corner has to get in a position to catch a pass in the close corner or elbow.

Nash knows how to deal with this. Teams have been doing this to him for years. The most common way out of it is to hit the big that flares around the top of the key (or closer to Nash). Then the defense rotates to that player and that player should have an easy pass to a wide open player for a three or inside to the guy who was rolling.

You just have to practice it and not act like a bunch of retards out there like the Lakers are. Slow decisions, too much ball holding, etc.

The pick and roll definitely cannot be defended if done right and if players make the right decisions. You can't hold the ball, you have to catch and shoot quickly, and you have to be in the right position. Occasionally a hard trap will catch you off guard but it does not work consistently against a team doing it right. Just last year the Suns were the #1 offense in the league when Nash was in the game.

Now you can argue that the Lakers don't have the personnel. That is a valid argument. But you can also argue the players are just not buying in and making good decisions. Kobe never catches and shoots in the pick and roll for one. Dwight cannot pop. Artest hesitates. Gasol and Dwight do not roll hard. Nash doesn't look to shoot off the unless he is wide open.