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The Trade Thread

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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1081 » by Bassman » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:29 pm

dmutombo321 wrote:I know MKG is beloved and alot of people have visions of sugar plumbs when they think about his potential. But you cant acquire quality without giving up quality.

If this teams stays the course and doesnt overspend this offseason to become mediocre, the top franchise caliber SFs in next years draft which we should have a shot at will relegate MKG to the bench.


Completely agree. Paint me with tar, feathers and ride me outta here on a rail in 5 years if I'm wrong, but I think MKG is fools gold. He will be a good addition to do the grimy things down the road, but that's not what you pick someone at #2 to become. Great description of his shot from an earlier post ("..as bad as Barkley's golf swing"). People expect that to just "get fixed", but it's too far gone.

I'd deal MKG & Biz for Kanter & filler, which allows us to keep and use our picks while going after a quality free agent.
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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1082 » by James Gatz » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:50 pm

It's amazing how many people are turning their backs on MKG after barely playing half a season. This after everyone loved him during our initial winning streak.
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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1083 » by SWedd523 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:52 pm

James Gatz wrote:It's amazing how many people are turning their backs on MKG after barely playing half a season. This after everyone loved him during our initial winning streak.

You forget how many "experts" there are around these parts
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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1084 » by Liver_Pooty » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:59 pm

James Gatz wrote:It's amazing how many people are turning their backs on MKG after barely playing half a season. This after everyone loved him during our initial winning streak.


I try to ignore such talk. Seeing trade ideas like MKG and Biyombo for Kanter just makes me giggle if anything.

Reminds me of people despising Walker last year and now they worship everything he does.
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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1085 » by countryboi » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:11 pm

Bassman wrote:
dmutombo321 wrote:I know MKG is beloved and alot of people have visions of sugar plumbs when they think about his potential. But you cant acquire quality without giving up quality.

If this teams stays the course and doesnt overspend this offseason to become mediocre, the top franchise caliber SFs in next years draft which we should have a shot at will relegate MKG to the bench.


Completely agree. Paint me with tar, feathers and ride me outta here on a rail in 5 years if I'm wrong, but I think MKG is fools gold. He will be a good addition to do the grimy things down the road, but that's not what you pick someone at #2 to become. Great description of his shot from an earlier post ("..as bad as Barkley's golf swing"). People expect that to just "get fixed", but it's too far gone.

I'd deal MKG & Biz for Kanter & filler, which allows us to keep and use our picks while going after a quality free agent.


how in the world can you give up on the two youngest players in the draft two years in a row just because they are not progress the way you think they should be and then trade them for a guy that is statistically worse than both of them... the bobcats made this bed they are going to lie in and continue to develop these players. i think kemba has every one thinking it always going to happen that fast these things take time.
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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1086 » by BigSlam » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:14 pm

James Gatz wrote:It's amazing how many people are turning their backs on MKG after barely playing half a season. This after everyone loved him during our initial winning streak.

I wouldn't trade MKG for Kanter but I would trade Biz for him in a nano second.
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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1087 » by _tijo_ » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:47 pm

Bassman wrote:Completely agree. Paint me with tar, feathers and ride me outta here on a rail in 5 years if I'm wrong, but I think MKG is fools gold. He will be a good addition to do the grimy things down the road, but that's not what you pick someone at #2 to become. Great description of his shot from an earlier post ("..as bad as Barkley's golf swing"). People expect that to just "get fixed", but it's too far gone.

I'd deal MKG & Biz for Kanter & filler, which allows us to keep and use our picks while going after a quality free agent.


This is the exact kind of knee jerk short-sightedness that Cho is trying to work against, that Larry Brown and Co in the past had. Let's see what happens with the 19 year olds on our team. You know who else needed work his first year in the league when he was really young? Two dudes named KG and Kobe. Chill dude, rebuilding takes time. OKC sucked four years ago too.
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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1088 » by amcoolio » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:48 pm

I'm pretty sure a lot of people here would have traded Kemba Walker for Isaiah Thomas, Brandon Knight, Rodney Stuckey and the like after last season. I'd wait at least a few seasons before thinking about trading MKG.
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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1089 » by thruthefire » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:13 pm

Kanter's per-minute numbers are solid, but he's incredibly turnover-prone, less productive on the defensive glass than Biz, and not a shot-blocker. I'd rather have Favors, but would be willing to move Biz and Portland's first for Kanter.
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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1090 » by dmutombo321 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:26 pm

A couple of points in response to the posts above.

First, people speak of "giving up" on our top three pick as if we're waiving him. We're not. The suggested Kanter inquiry would involve us trading our top 3 pick for another top 3 pick who is roughly the same age, has shown greater sign of fulfilling his potential at this albeit early stage and plays a position of need that is much harder to fill. And I would of course start discussions with Biz and the Port 1st before putting MKG on the negotiating table.

I suspect a number of Kanter's naysayers have hardly watched him play for Utah. As noted, his numbers are pedestrian because he only sees 15 mpg as he is buried behind two allstar post men and another top pick in Favors. When he plays, he produces. Had some monster games in the preseason and an 18/9 outing in a rare start earlier this year with Jefferson and millsap injured. The rest of the time, he is usually playing sporadic minutes riding the pine.

Kanter is 3x the player Biyombo is and apart from raw shot blocking, is vastly superior to him in every facet of the game. Utah wouldnt have interest in Biyombo alone. Once Kanter is getting starters minutes in Utah or elsewhere, just like the James Harden doubters from a couple years ago, people are going to eat their words.

To the frequent point brought up about how MKG and Biyombo are still young and need more time - I dont disagree at all. Its waayy too early to tell for certain how each player will ultimately turn out.

However, if the FO makes an educated guess early on and suspects theres a higher than avg liklihood a player will NOT reach their potential, the team can still parlay that player, in whom they have a valuable pick invested, into another valuable young player. Conversely, if the FO gives instead gives a player every benefit of the doubt to develop, by that player's 3rd or 4th year, once everyone is finally willing to concede that said player probably wont fullfill his potential, the rest of the league sees the same thing and said player's trade value has gone down the toilet. Its all about taking calculated risks

A good example of this is Derrick Williams. By many accounts, the Wolves' FO privately had internal concerns about his development and effectiveness as a pro player early on. As late as mid way through last season, when Williams was still shiney and new, there was serious talk about Minny possibly bailing on him for another top 3 protected pick. Minny should have struck while the iron was hot because his value has plummeted, everyone knows he's only a so-so PF and nobody's going to be offering that now.

Now, I happen to think the MKG will definitely be a better pro than Derrick Williams. He belongs in the league and I'm not insinuating that he was a poor selection in last year's weak draft. But the principal remains the same. As Bass points out, MKG is a flawed player who we dont see ever becoming anything more than a medicore shooter. Yes- it would be foolish to deal him just for the sake of dealing him. But its even more foolish to overvalue him and not examine possibilities to improve the team in the long run.

Nobody on this roster, even Kemba, should be completely untouchable if the right return can be had.
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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1091 » by Kembastockton » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:28 pm

dmutombo321 wrote:
I know MKG is beloved and alot of people have visions of sugar plumbs when they think about his potential. But you cant acquire quality without giving up quality.

If this teams stays the course and doesnt overspend this offseason to become mediocre, the top franchise caliber SFs in next years draft which we should have a shot at will relegate MKG to the bench.


We haven't drafted any of those guys yet. How about let's draft one of those guys, and let him out play MKG before we trade our potential loaded young forward. Then once we have a three who has proven to be better than Kidd we can decide whether to bench or trade him.

Completely agree. Paint me with tar, feathers and ride me outta here on a rail in 5 years if I'm wrong, but I think MKG is fools gold. He will be a good addition to do the grimy things down the road, but that's not what you pick someone at #2 to become. Great description of his shot from an earlier post ("..as bad as Barkley's golf swing"). People expect that to just "get fixed", but it's too far gone.


MKG is only 19 years old, and has proven to be mentally strong. He could fix a crack habit if he had the problem. It is ridiculous to suggest a kid as fundametally sound as MKG can never overcome a problem as small as a hitch in his shot. His jumper doesn't have to be picture perfact he just needs to adjust it enough to consistently hit it. :roll:
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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1092 » by SWedd523 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:39 pm

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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1093 » by misterglover » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:25 pm

Bassman I guess its me & you out on that island alone then, but nothing about MKG impresses me except his effort. The kid plays hard I will give him that, but I said it before the draft and I feel the same way now and as I talk to others at the arena during games and just other bobcats fans not on Realgm there are others that are also having buyers remorse. MKG is a role player that would have been better on a team where he could've played a role but he is not what we needed, dress it up however you want. I think once again the 'cats made the wrong pick cuz I personally think Beal, Barnes & Drummond are all gonna be better.

_tijo_ wrote: You know who else needed work his first year in the league when he was really young? Two dudes named KG and Kobe. Chill dude, rebuilding takes time. OKC sucked four years ago too.


Please dont make that argument becuz each of those guys had skills already that set them apart from MKG and other players of the same age. KG was a skilled 6'11 - 7ft kid that played SF his rookie year, he had good low post skills already just not the body to bang and he had the length to make it hard on other SF's during that time.... Kobe was thought to be crazy when he came out becuz he was a wing player, but he had a scorers mentality from the jump. Everyone remembers Kobe airballing those 2 shots during the playoffs during his early years but he was already offensive minded aka ball hog.

Look im not trying to verbally kill MKG or even saying we need to trade him but he doesnt have on skill set where you can say "well if he adds to that....". He's a hustle player he has no particular skill set, so yes he's 19 and has plenty of room for development but his whole game/skill set basically needs improvement.
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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1094 » by Eoghan » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:43 pm

dmutombo321 wrote:
Kanter is 3x the player Biyombo is and apart from raw shot blocking, is vastly superior to him in every facet of the game.

LOL, not really. Biz is already a floor general on defense and all he needs to do is keep improving his offensive fundamentals which is a lot more likely than Kanter magically becoming the athlete Biz is. Kanter in no way shape or form has the same physical gifts as Biz which vastly limits his potential. The only thing Kanter is vastly superior to Biz is post moves, touch, and lower body strength. I doubt Biz ever develops comparative touch since that is something you're more or less born with but another couple years of development and Biz can easily be as productive as Kanter who is not likely to get much better as a player than he is now.

I'm glad some of you aren't GMs, y'all's patience for projects is akin to being upset over how long it takes a microwave to cook your food.
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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1095 » by Bassman » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:44 pm

misterglover wrote:Bassman I guess its me & you out on that island alone then, but nothing about MKG impresses me except his effort. The kid plays hard I will give him that, but I said it before the draft and I feel the same way now and as I talk to others at the arena during games and just other bobcats fans not on Realgm there are others that are also having buyers remorse. MKG is a role player that would have been better on a team where he could've played a role but he is not what we needed, dress it up however you want. I think once again the 'cats made the wrong pick cuz I personally think Beal, Barnes & Drummond are all gonna be better.


I have no problem hanging out on that island with you and anyone else. I was adamently against picking him, but not because he's a bad player. I felt he would never reach the level of player that Beal or Robinson could (or Lillard for that matter but we already had a PG). Robinson started very slow also, and while he may yet prove to be an underachiever, he is making progress. Hyphen is young, and he will be much better next season, but I just don't see his ceiling as anything close to a borderline star. His offensive limitations will forever haunt the team he plays for. DMutumbo made excellent reasoned points, as has Mr. Glover. In the NBA, you gotta put the ball in the basket! Michael is an athlete no doubt, but just not as special as we all hoped he would be.
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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1096 » by HornetJail » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:48 pm

Good lord. Are we really having this conversation? We're like 40 games into his rookie season on a team in free fall and you guys are writing off his ability to be an elite player?
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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1097 » by misterglover » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:52 pm

^ I never thought he had the ability to be an elite player and nothing about that has changed....now im just confused as hell as to what some of you are watching that im not seeing that makes you feel that way, other than just hope and love of the team....
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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1098 » by pickIBL » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:07 pm

Has there been any talk of taking advantage of the boston situation and sending Sessions to Boston. Could be worth discussing if you can dump Tyrus Thomas on them.
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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1099 » by Badd_Intentions » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:56 pm

Would be a tough sell seeing as they have Terry, Barbosa, Lee, and Bradley all fighting for minutes in the backcourt.
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Re: The Trade Thread 

Post#1100 » by dmutombo321 » Fri Feb 1, 2013 12:16 am

BrotherDave wrote:
dmutombo321 wrote:
Kanter is 3x the player Biyombo is and apart from raw shot blocking, is vastly superior to him in every facet of the game.


LOL, not really. Biz is already a floor general on defense and all he needs to do is keep improving his offensive fundamentals which is a lot more likely than Kanter magically becoming the athlete Biz is. Kanter in no way shape or form has the same physical gifts as Biz which vastly limits his potential. The only thing Kanter is vastly superior to Biz is post moves, touch, and lower body strength. I doubt Biz ever develops comparative touch since that is something you're more or less born with but another couple years of development and Biz can easily be as productive as Kanter who is not likely to get much better as a player than he is now.


I certainly wont argue that Biz has a definite future in this league as a shot blocker/defender.

However, I think your assertion that Biyombo will be considered the better bigman than Kanter a couple years from now is going to look silly in retrospect.

Much like Vucevic, who Bass as I lobbied for a couple drafts back, and who is now averaging a double double for Orlando, all Kanter needs are the minutes. Put him on the Bobcats right now @ 36 mins per night and Kanter is conservatively a 15/10 player on 50% shooting, maybe even better.

Biyombo has the absolute worst hands and offensive awareness of any player I've seen in along time. Even Diop looks like Hakeem in comparison. The fact the he shoots 45% when his only shot attempts are point blank put backs at the rim speaks to his ineptitude on offense. His rebounding is terribly inconsistent. As you point out, he is physically gifted but so is DJ Mbenga and a number of other athletic players who happen to have low talent levels and poor hands.

In a few years, I expect that Kanter will have a well deserved reputation as a nightly double double threat while Biyombo will widely be accepted to be a Bo Outlaw or Bulls Era Ben Wallace type utility player.

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