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Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I

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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#841 » by Ruzious » Sun Feb 3, 2013 6:42 pm

Dat2U wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
Dat2U wrote:Yeah, Smart is #1 on my Gs list at the moment, and that was before today's game! Smart reminds me a bit Deron Williams. He is a big linebacker type guard CCJ.

Burke looks good. A little small. I don't think he's the next Chris Paul tho... maybe Devin Harris at his best.

His PG skills are so far ahead of Harris', you can't reasonably compare the 2.

I'm not sure I get the comparisons, but Smart is a unique player and a unique person for an 18 year old. If he develops a consistent jump shot, the sky is the limit - as I said much earlier in this thread. And I'm still not sure he's a PG in the NBA.


Burke reminds me of Harris at his best because he's a jitterbug, very quick and decisive with the ball. But he's also small and frail looking. While he may have more PG in him than Devin Harris he strikes me as a scorer that can create as opposed to a creator with scoring ability.

Watching Smart, he reminded me of Deron Williams because he's built like a tank and while he isn't necessarily explosive off the bounce, he's quick, agile and strong so he's a handful. Smart like Deron... had a ways to go before he was good pro. Deron was a bit overweight and needed some seasoning and didn't earn how to change speeds until his 2nd year in the NBA. I could see Smart similarly being a high pick and taking a year or two to develop and end up being a very good NBA player in time.

How is Burke frail-looking? He's close to 200 lbs. He's already stronger looking than Chris Paul - the best PG in the NBA. Short doesn't mean frail. Otherwise, we wouldn't be watching Ray Rice tonight.

Deron is like a pudgy 205 lber. Smart, at still 18 years old goes 225 of muscle. Deron was always a pure PG. Smart is a hybrid type guard who is learning to play the point. I think he has outstanding potential (I rated him 3rd best prospect early in this thread.), but I'm not sure he'll end up as a PG.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#842 » by Dat2U » Sun Feb 3, 2013 6:47 pm

Question, I like Oladipo... Is he another Mickael Pietrus or Thabo Sefolosha? I.E. a solid rotation player but likely because of his offense, a fringe NBA starter/key reserve? I think in the late lottery/mid 1st round is probably where his value is.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#843 » by Ruzious » Sun Feb 3, 2013 6:53 pm

Dat2U wrote:Question, I like Oladipo... Is he another Mickael Pietrus or Thabo Sefolosha? I.E. a solid rotation player but likely because of his offense, a fringe NBA starter/key reserve? I think in the late lottery/mid 1st round is probably where his value is.

I'd compare him to Wesley Matthews. Physically and skill-wise, they're very similar. But Oladipo puts more effort into defense than any college guard I've ever seen.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#844 » by mhd » Sun Feb 3, 2013 6:56 pm

Ruz, as a psudeo Bucks fan, is Oladipo like Mbah a Moute?
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#845 » by kirubel94 » Sun Feb 3, 2013 8:05 pm

Ricky Ledo( 6-7 SG/SF) says he might come out this year despite the fact that he is not going to play a single game for Providence. He can practice but not play and scouts have been watching the practices. He has all the skills that can make him a top-5 pick. It would really be interesting to see where he goes if he declares.

Some highlights here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH8stctEEYQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a8hf5gKmKA
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#846 » by Dat2U » Sun Feb 3, 2013 8:08 pm

Ruzious wrote:How is Burke frail-looking? He's close to 200 lbs. He's already stronger looking than Chris Paul - the best PG in the NBA. Short doesn't mean frail. Otherwise, we wouldn't be watching Ray Rice tonight.

Deron is like a pudgy 205 lber. Smart, at still 18 years old goes 225 of muscle. Deron was always a pure PG. Smart is a hybrid type guard who is learning to play the point. I think he has outstanding potential (I rated him 3rd best prospect early in this thread.), but I'm not sure he'll end up as a PG.


Well maybe the eyes lie but I've always thought of Deron as a big guard. I think were not far apart on Smart in that we both like his potential but I think he will eventually be a PG but he does have a large learning curve so expecting immediate success might be unrealistic.

Burke doesn't look 200. If he is, I'd be surprised. He looks tiny to me. He's got a slight frame. I think he's about 180 but again the eyes may lie.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#847 » by hands11 » Sun Feb 3, 2013 8:18 pm

Dat2U wrote:Question, I like Oladipo... Is he another Mickael Pietrus or Thabo Sefolosha? I.E. a solid rotation player but likely because of his offense, a fringe NBA starter/key reserve? I think in the late lottery/mid 1st round is probably where his value is.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1514 ... ody-zeller

Both players have had exceptional seasons, but Oladipo is playing better than perhaps anyone in the country. While Zeller was the Player of the Year before the season started, Oladipo has a chance to be the Player of the Year when the season ends.

I called him a mini L Deng.

Oladipo is shooting 64.4 percent from the field, making anything from big slam dunks to long jump shots.

He has also been deadly from behind the arc, making 51.4 percent of his three-point attempts.

Image

What makes Oladipo such an incredible player is his incredible defense. He is able to trick players into making passes that he intercepts and consistently brings back for big dunks.

A sure sign that he gets it and is smart and active

The numbers don't lie. He has become a better player in nearly every aspect, and his development is truly surprising. After shooting 47.1 percent and 20.8 percent behind the arc last year, his numbers improved to 64.4 and 51.4 percent respectively.

His ability to shoot from anywhere on the floor drives coaches insane when planning for him.

Intensity
When there's a loose ball, fans are surprised by how hard Oladipo will fight for the ball. What makes Oladipo one of the most intense player in the country is his aggressiveness when throwing down big slam dunks. Simply put, it's hard to find another player as intense as Victor Oladipo.

He is a difference maker.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHPyalUAAng[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naFPlrzw2FI[/youtube]
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#848 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Feb 3, 2013 8:35 pm

stevemcqueen1 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:His PG skills are so far ahead of Harris', you can't reasonably compare the 2.

I'm not sure I get the comparisons, but Smart is a unique player and a unique person for an 18 year old. If he develops a consistent jump shot, the sky is the limit - as I said much earlier in this thread. And I'm still not sure he's a PG in the NBA.


Smart is really compelling. Not a burner, but a tremendous leaper and he's got a ton of strength. The intangibles look special. I think you're right that he's a unique player and he might not be an NBA PG. I'm getting a James Harden-like jack of all trades feeling from him. That kind of creativity and versatility would be great at any of the perimeter spots. I think his strength and his leaping ability could even allow you to go small and play him at SF from time to time despite his height.

It'd be nice to have a secondary playmaker in the half court to expand the potential of the offense.
But given how poor a shooting team we are, I'm not sure we can take another player under 6'6 that isn't already a great shooter.


Smart is a much better defender than Wall. Smart is a natural leader and a fierce competitor. He is a lot different from Wall in that he relies on physical contact a lot. He is a Ron Artest of PGs.

Instead of looking to draft a stud offensive player, Smart could be the best player available. He is extremely competitive.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#849 » by nate33 » Sun Feb 3, 2013 9:57 pm

hands11 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:Question, I like Oladipo... Is he another Mickael Pietrus or Thabo Sefolosha? I.E. a solid rotation player but likely because of his offense, a fringe NBA starter/key reserve? I think in the late lottery/mid 1st round is probably where his value is.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1514 ... ody-zeller

Both players have had exceptional seasons, but Oladipo is playing better than perhaps anyone in the country. While Zeller was the Player of the Year before the season started, Oladipo has a chance to be the Player of the Year when the season ends.

I called him a mini L Deng.

Oladipo is shooting 64.4 percent from the field, making anything from big slam dunks to long jump shots.

He has also been deadly from behind the arc, making 51.4 percent of his three-point attempts.

Image

What makes Oladipo such an incredible player is his incredible defense. He is able to trick players into making passes that he intercepts and consistently brings back for big dunks.

A sure sign that he gets it and is smart and active

The numbers don't lie. He has become a better player in nearly every aspect, and his development is truly surprising. After shooting 47.1 percent and 20.8 percent behind the arc last year, his numbers improved to 64.4 and 51.4 percent respectively.

His ability to shoot from anywhere on the floor drives coaches insane when planning for him.

Intensity
When there's a loose ball, fans are surprised by how hard Oladipo will fight for the ball. What makes Oladipo one of the most intense player in the country is his aggressiveness when throwing down big slam dunks. Simply put, it's hard to find another player as intense as Victor Oladipo.

He is a difference maker.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHPyalUAAng[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naFPlrzw2FI[/youtube]

His numbers so far this season are indeed eye-opening. I'm not yet convinced about his shooting though. It's usually pretty rare for a player to make that dramatic of an improvement in shooting in such a short period of time. And his number of 3 point attempts per game is pretty low, so it may just be a low sample size fluke. But if Oladipo maintains that shooting efficiency from the arc for the entire season, that would be a big plus in my book. It would show that his shot isn't broken at all, and is likely to continue to improve as a pro. It'll also mean that his draft status will skyrocket. He'll probably go in the lottery by the time it's all said and done.

I'll be curious to see his measurements this summer. Hopefully, he has grown some. He's listed at 6-5, which isn't long enough to play SF unless he has a freakish wingspan. Would be tough to find enough minutes for him and Beal.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#850 » by Dat2U » Sun Feb 3, 2013 10:24 pm

I'm fine with drafting a guard behind Wall & Beal. However it should be a guard that's versatile enough to slide between the 1 & 2. More than likely a point guard with scoring ability and solid 3 pt range. McCollum fits those characteristics. McLemore doesn't. Oladipo doesn't. Shabazz doesn't but maybe he's a 3 anyways.

I guess Burke would fit those characteristics as well so he should be under consideration too.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#851 » by hands11 » Mon Feb 4, 2013 1:08 am

Dat2U wrote:I'm fine with drafting a guard behind Wall & Beal. However it should be a guard that's versatile enough to slide between the 1 & 2. More than likely a point guard with scoring ability and solid 3 pt range. McCollum fits those characteristics. McLemore doesn't. Oladipo doesn't. Shabazz doesn't but maybe he's a 3 anyways.

I guess Burke would fit those characteristics as well so he should be under consideration too.


You draft the best talent and best value of talent whenever you can.

McCollum
Victor Oladipo
Otto

As of right now, they are all talented and good value. And I like the motors.

My value big is Plumlee

If we could find a way to get them all I would.

If any or all of them are good enough to push out other existing players young or old, then that is a quality problem I would like to have.

No one is a lock on this team just yet. They are just assets.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#852 » by DANNYLANDOVER » Mon Feb 4, 2013 2:30 am

Beal hasn't really done anything to make the SG spot his. If Oladipo or Shabazz or Mclemore is better, draft him...same goes for the PG spot with Wall.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#853 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:07 am

DANNYLANDOVER wrote:Beal hasn't really done anything to make the SG spot his. If Oladipo or Shabazz or Mclemore is better, draft him...same goes for the PG spot with Wall.


I agree, 100%.

Marcus Smart, C.J. McCollum, Trey Burke, Michael Carter Williams, and Lorenzo Brown are all guys I would not hesitate to draft.

People never want to see things that might be risky as the way to go, but trading Wall just might be the way to go. If you can get two top 7 picks, you would be dumb not to in this draft IMO.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#854 » by MDStar » Mon Feb 4, 2013 1:00 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
DANNYLANDOVER wrote:Beal hasn't really done anything to make the SG spot his. If Oladipo or Shabazz or Mclemore is better, draft him...same goes for the PG spot with Wall.


I agree, 100%.

Marcus Smart, C.J. McCollum, Trey Burke, Michael Carter Williams, and Lorenzo Brown are all guys I would not hesitate to draft.

People never want to see things that might be risky as the way to go, but trading Wall just might be the way to go. If you can get two top 7 picks, you would be dumb not to in this draft IMO.


I disagree 100%. This team has a severe lack of talent right now. And while I am a strong advocate of taking the best player available, you don't go out of your way to just replace one of the two really talented players that we actually do have.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#855 » by Ruzious » Mon Feb 4, 2013 1:44 pm

mhd wrote:Ruz, as a psudeo Bucks fan, is Oladipo like Mbah a Moute?

That's an interesting question - and a good description of me. :) They have the same fierceness on defense - they're both players Scott Skiles would love to coach. a Moute is a bit more limited, because he's a tweener forward, while Olapido is a very good sized shooting guard - fitting that position very well. And Olapido probably has more upside offensively - though he's got questionmarks there.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#856 » by BruceO » Mon Feb 4, 2013 3:07 pm

i like that ricky ledo kid. was looking forward to see him play this season but that hasn't happened. He's the one who outplayed wall sometime but apparently wall was going slow. But i think with an ability to slash and an ability to shoot he'd be a good pickup, and he has good size at 6 7'.

question UCLA, the guards in the past, westbrook and jrue ( both all stars by the way) seem to have been limited by the system. Could shabazz do better numbers elsewhere? can he actually be a much better scorer on the next level? he seems to have all the tools especially for a sg.

id say draft mclemore or shabazz or maybe noel. but a three headed monster guard lineup! imagine like kyrie, waiters and mclemore or shabazz..its scary.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#857 » by pancakes3 » Mon Feb 4, 2013 3:27 pm

I think you have to be careful with drafting wings for their defense. As Nivek likes to recount, he once had a chat with Rick Carlisle about defense and Carlisle said that pretty much any NBA athlete could play good D if in the right (his) system. Now shotblocking, rebounding, instincts, arm length, quickness, hustle all play a part but I think defensive success doesn't translate 1 to 1.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#858 » by nate33 » Mon Feb 4, 2013 3:46 pm

pancakes3 wrote:I think you have to be careful with drafting wings for their defense. As Nivek likes to recount, he once had a chat with Rick Carlisle about defense and Carlisle said that pretty much any NBA athlete could play good D if in the right (his) system. Now shotblocking, rebounding, instincts, arm length, quickness, hustle all play a part but I think defensive success doesn't translate 1 to 1.

I think the corollary to that is that the "right system" usually means "smart big men with length". Any reasonably athletic and disciplined NBA wing player can funnel an opponent to a spot on the floor where a good big man can cut him off. But you have to have the good big man to make it work. This is why our defense sucked with McGee and it is excellent with Okafor.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#859 » by Nivek » Mon Feb 4, 2013 3:55 pm

The "good big man" is an important part of "right system." It's a bit more than that, of course, because it involves teamwork, obeying certain principles (Carlisle called them "rules), and playing with effort.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part I 

Post#860 » by stevemcqueen1 » Mon Feb 4, 2013 3:56 pm

MDStar wrote:I disagree 100%. This team has a severe lack of talent right now. And while I am a strong advocate of taking the best player available, you don't go out of your way to just replace one of the two really talented players that we actually do have.


I agree with you. You go BPA but you also have to build a team, not just randomly collect talent. Then you just end up with a random collection of talent and not a team--which means you've actually got nothing.

I understand these discussions are mostly academic, tossing around scenarios and seeing how they could play out, but the truth is Wall and Beal are the foundation of this build and they aren't going anywhere. The FO is committed to making it work with them and they'll get years to develop.

I think the two biggest problems with this construction are that our big men are unreliable/short term solutions and we've got a team of poor shooters. The only high quality shooter on the team is Beal. When you've got a PG that is not a reliable shooter in Wall, you have to surround him with good shooters.

To make this work, we need to find a good long term big man that rebounds, and get better forwards that can shoot.

Our forward situation is one of the worst in the NBA. Nene is the only above league average forward we have and he's a big man tweener, he's aging, and he has a chronic foot injury. Basketball has become a forward driven game where most of the best teams have excellent forwards that can single-handedly cover up so much of the team's weaknesses. Someone who can shoot from range or score inside and rebound and play defense on multiple positions, switch onto guards and perimeter players or get into the paint, take up space and protect the rim.

When the new salary tax and repeater tax kick in and make it pretty much impossible to field complete teams that go way over the tax, you're going to become even more reliant on a versatile forward that covers up the flaws of other parts of your construction. Eventually all teams will have to start bums and guys who would otherwise be marginal role players because their contracts are cheap. You've got to be able to build a contender for less than 70 million dollars.

So us having arguably the worst group of forwards in the league has been a severe disadvantage. That's what I'd be looking to fix rather than shuffling around our guard situation, which is already very promising. We don't necessarily need stars here, we need to get good players who can shoot and/or facilitate that are at least NBA average. Someone who has enough offensive value to guarantee a 15+ PER and plays good defense on top of that. Someone that can hit open shots...

But again, in the draft, you have to use BPA as the foundation of your drafting. So you have to figure out a way to reconcile your needs with the talent available in the draft without ever forcing it and passing on potential all stars or franchise players for future role players.

And as far as team building goes, big men are ridiculously expensive and the market for them is going to get pretty debilitating when you've basically got a 70 million dollar spending cap. It's going to make the big men that are actually impact players the most valuable and efficient contracts out there. We've got 27-28 million annually locked up in two big men that, while above league average today, are going to decline from here out and can't be long term solutions because of their age. They don't coincide with the window established with Wall and Beal. So it really makes sense for us to take advantage of a deep big man draft and get that future contract settled with a quality long term solution.

But once more, you can't force the draft. If McLemore is the best talent available because you've got him graded as a potential All Star, you take him and try and make a plan to either have him work with Wall and Beal, or you deal him to bring in a good player that will.

Another thing to keep in mind during the delicate process of team building is that no team can successfully develop more than a few young players at once. Keeping a team of young developmental players together is probably the hardest thing to do in the NBA. If you go too young, you will not last long enough to see it mature together. I would never try and develop a class of more than one or two rookies. And if I've got a lot of young raw players, I would deal some of them for finished products to keep only two or three on hand at once. You simply will not be able to get a ton of young players enough attention and minutes to properly develop. And teams need to win some games to start developing and teams that are too young do not win. The Wizards went disastrously young in 2010 and 2011 and now we've got a team with seven players with less than three years of experience and a string of 20 win seasons. Most of those players are undefined and struggling to find a role and only the no brainer high draft picks Wall and Beal--with tons of talent and obvious upside and a host of NBA ready skills--are getting developed.

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