GT#47: Chicago Bulls @ Brooklyn Nets | 2/1| 7:30pm | YES

[enetric]

id put us above all those tier 2 teams if we played with good effort. but we dont. and we have no leader on the court.

talent wise we are as good or better. and im not saying those teams are world beaters. but when talent is relative, effort and execution is what it comes down to. and those are 2 major issues for us right now.

Its really kind of sad that our franchise player is the guy so many tried to convince me was the best floor general in the NBA and at the very least top 2 behind CP3 and we are talking about a lack of leadership on the court. That's the one problem you dont expect to be talking about when you have an elite PG.

So I say again...no matter what our beefs with this team are right now...its on Deron's shoulders first. He needs to be exceptional. Be the guy we thought we had.

im ok with deron not being a leader, because he is playing well, is cohesive, and playing his game for the most part.

lopez is killing me, especially lately. he is playing like the softest player in the league, and has regressed significantly as the year has gone on.

Other than the Knicks game (LOVED the way he played in that game) I would agree he has looked a bit soft the last few weeks in several games.

But I am NOT OK with our superstar the face of our franchise...who is supposed to be an ELITE NBA floor general not doing a dominant job of getting his guys to step up and buy into their roles when things are lagging at any point of a game. You shouldn't be OK with that either. You can praise Deron's improved play of late...but if your big beef is leadership as you say....then how can you NOT put that on Deron first? Think about that. I think even Deron knows its on him. More than anything else..that is what I expect from a superstar PG.

I mean hell even old and not running the point look at JKidd in NY. Have you seen how he affects that team? That is what a leader does. He did it here, in Dallas and now even in a reduced role he still finds a way to impact BBIQ. To make others confident. To sense when he MUST hit a big shot or get someone involved...or talk in their ear.

This absolutely MUST start with Deron Williams.

[enetric]

Still i think Noah is the emotional leader of the Bulls not Rose.

I think you guys are applying leader in too cavalier a fashion. A team cna have several leaders in many different ways. Clfi Robinson was one of the leaders on this team during the Kidd/VC/RJ years. That's two HOF guys and a faily vocal borderline all star type and still Uncle Cliffy was a so called locker room presence or an emotional leader if you will. So sure I get that.

BUT...the TONE setter on the court? Everyone one of those NBA PG's absolutely is expected to be the MAN on their team for that role. And if he is also your best player...he is trully the leader and direction for what the team does. He is the coach on the floor. Your director, your big brother when you need him and your ass kicker if that is what you need as well. Every minute, every play...Deron should be impacting in one form or another.

[SpeedyG]

Still i think Noah is the emotional leader of the Bulls not Rose.

I think you guys are applying leader in too cavalier a fashion. A team cna have several leaders in many different ways. Clfi Robinson was one of the leaders on this team during the Kidd/VC/RJ years. That's two HOF guys and a faily vocal borderline all star type and still Uncle Cliffy was a so called locker room presence or an emotional leader if you will. So sure I get that.

BUT...the TONE setter on the court? Everyone one of those NBA PG's absolutely is expected to be the MAN on their team for that role. And if he is also your best player...he is trully the leader and direction for what the team does. He is the coach on the floor. Your director, your big brother when you need him and your ass kicker if that is what you need as well. Every minute, every play...Deron should be impacting in one form or another.

I agree, man. Kidd had that knack. His IQ is just waaaay off the charts. That's why, even at the prime of Deron/Paul, having watched Kidd in his prime...there's just a difference even if i admit that those other two had more latent talent than Kidd.

Need a clutch basket? Kidd will nail it.

Need an assist to get someone going? Kidd will find him.

Defense in a rut? Kidd takes a charge.

Need a rebound? Kidd goes after it.

He just knew when to take over. He had that same instinct that MJ had, only without the latent ability/athleticism that Jordan had.

[enetric]

Still i think Noah is the emotional leader of the Bulls not Rose.

I think you guys are applying leader in too cavalier a fashion. A team cna have several leaders in many different ways. Clfi Robinson was one of the leaders on this team during the Kidd/VC/RJ years. That's two HOF guys and a faily vocal borderline all star type and still Uncle Cliffy was a so called locker room presence or an emotional leader if you will. So sure I get that.

BUT...the TONE setter on the court? Everyone one of those NBA PG's absolutely is expected to be the MAN on their team for that role. And if he is also your best player...he is trully the leader and direction for what the team does. He is the coach on the floor. Your director, your big brother when you need him and your ass kicker if that is what you need as well. Every minute, every play...Deron should be impacting in one form or another.

I agree, man. Kidd had that knack. His IQ is just waaaay off the charts. That's why, even at the prime of Deron/Paul, having watched Kidd in his prime...there's just a difference even if i admit that those other two had more latent talent than Kidd.

Need a clutch basket? Kidd will nail it.

Need an assist to get someone going? Kidd will find him.

Defense in a rut? Kidd takes a charge.

Need a rebound? Kidd goes after it.

He just knew when to take over. He had that same instinct that MJ had, only without the latent ability/athleticism that Jordan had.

Absolutely.

You know...I think there is this inclination to think if you score 20 per night on top of stuffing other stats you have more all around talent in some way. But you know...for me the only things the scoring point guards have over JKidd is the ability to self create off the dribble. That was Kidd's one weakness. But I maintain he was better in every other facet of the game over any of these guys. And for me...I value those who make others better over those who can take over a game. Always have and I always will. I value that skill set much more in terms of winning.

Kidd compared to these scoring PG's was a better play maker, better rebounder, better defender, higher BBIQ. The guy was an all time great in my book. And as for his offense...we all know that he could hit that dagger shot. And you always knew when he would hit it. And unlike these other guys who will get their 20 points on many a 7-20 night with two three pointers, at least when his fg% was low he hit those pair of threes on few fga's. He got higher % shots for his team in place of that and still provided the deep threat over and over. People say he learned to shoot later in his career. Well I say his 3 point% got better later...but he didnt become third on the all time list for 3's made overnight. He has been sticking it to people for years providing key points wihole creating oh so much more for everyone else. SO who cares how you got the offense so long as it leads to wins?

My point is...so what if he wasnt an elite self creator? He made everyone else on the court around him better. He was a maestro of leadership and team greatness. Everywhere he went he has made that team noticeably better. He never needed a system tailored to him. He stepped right in and everyone thrived. Dallas, Phoenix, NJ, Dallas, NY. A noticeable impact every single time.

For my money all time I rank him as the third greatest PG ever behind Magic and Stockton. And no I didnt see Cousy but I did see Zeke. Nash to me isnt close and while a terrific shooter and passer had he not played for Dantoni in the SSOL offense he wouldnt even be in these conversations. (He still ranks as the worst defensive player I have seen in the last 30 years of this league). CP3 is the best of this era by a country mile. I am still waiting for Deron to be the player so many told me he was before he got here. I was skeptical before although I had him as a top 10 player up until this season on my list. January aside...will the real Deron Williams please stand up?

[MGrand15]

I don't agree with you guys about the effort but leadership definitely needs to take a step up on this team.

We have 4 main guys on our team - Deron, JJ, Brook, Crash.

Sadly, Crash is often a huge part of the problem on the basketball court BUT when we're playing terrible basketball, he's often the only one who doesn't quit. Deron and Brook sulk when things are going badly. JJ tries but his impact is decided only by whether his shot is falling or not. Unlike the rest of the team, Crash noticeably steps it up when the team is falling.

The coaching staff needs to do a better job of realizing that we're pretty weak mentally on the court - they have to call TOs quicker and more often when things are going badly or getting away from us. Ideally, Deron would buckle down and say "F This, we're not getting blown out" but he's proven that he's NOT that guy. He hangs his head and says "Here we go again." Brook does the same thing.

It's a weakness but it's not the end all be all. Did you see how quickly Thibs called a TO in the 4th quarter? 1 minute in after 5 unanswered points. He saw something and wanted it addressed immediately. PJ needs to get better at this because we've had too many quarters where we straight up collapse. We can get away with it against average teams but against the Heat/OKC/Spurs - that's a blow out.

[PetroNet]

anyway you slice it up the reality is still as such:

- we have no leadership on this team, and that isnt going to magically change internally.

we need to add someone to lead this group, to motivate them, to keep them focused, and to get on them when they dont play up to standards.

unfortunetly, the leadership issue pretty much stems all the way up to billy king. from management, to coaching, to assistants, to players there really is no leader.

[Paradise]

And to prove this board overacts to certain things further: The Bulls are in a back and forth tight game against Indiana after blowing out Atlanta....without Noah, Boozer, Hinrich. They play hard. Because it was a tight game against them that has no reflection on our team.

Now, I honestly think this team doesn't have a leader because nobody is comfortable with each other to call each other out. Which is perfectly understandable because this is the first year of this group of players, I don't think nobody takes that into account. You have a 15 man roster of guys who have never played together before until now. Trust, leadership, accountability between players and star players aren't developed in the first year.

Miami had zero leadership in 2010. LeBron/Wade did not know how to co-exist and be leaders together. A year later, they developed it. Last year's Knicks had zero leadership, underachieved and lead to coach turmoil and now a year later, they had tons of leadership from the players and coach.

The logic this is going to happen magically in the first year is the most baffling thing to me. Every team in the league with a above .500 record had to develop success and leadership on a daily basis, It did not just magically appear.


Best way for a new team to develop it is by listening and trusting the coach. That was something Avery sucked at, who seemed to be a coach that could never be an emotional leader. The players responded to PJ's form of coaching but he's not an emotional positive leader, however he does call them out with no regard which is what snaps them out of these funk stretches they go through. That's the difference between him and Avery.

Once this team collectively experiences the ups and downs of a season + the emotional toll that comes with playoff basketball. It creates a drive and hunger for success which then creates it's own leadership and accountability when that level of success isn't being reached.

You think you can walk into an office and call out co-workers after 1 month of working there? That's the equivalent of a season. Best way to fix that is playing passionate basketball and finding a spark that gets the team going.

[PetroNet]

Now, I honestly think this team doesn't have a leader because nobody is comfortable with each other to call each other out. Which is perfectly understandable because this is the first year of this group of players, I don't think nobody takes that into account. You have a 15 man roster of guys who have never played together before until now. Trust, leadership, accountability between players and star players aren't developed in the first year.

thats all well and good until you consider that none of these guys were leaders on previous teams, where they had spent several seasons as the teams top player. furthermore, if you are scared to call guys out, especially when the team is giving a D+ effort for 2 straight weeks, its probably a sign you are a terrible leader to being with.

Miami had zero leadership in 2010. LeBron/Wade did not know how to co-exist and be leaders together. A year later, they developed it. Last year's Knicks had zero leadership, underachieved and lead to coach turmoil and now a year later, they had tons of leadership from the players and coach.

you are confusing chemistry with leadership. wade was a leader from day 1. sure he and lebron took a long time to gel on court, but leadership was never an issue, nor was effort ever an issue. chandler has been a leader for that group since he has gotten there. kidd as well now that he is there, even with all the turnover that team has had.

we dont have any leaders. and it has nothing to do with the newness of it. whats worse, is its not a team playing hard with no leader, its guys not giving a crap with no leader. this team has a ton of talent, but the stink of a losing team.

The logic this is going to happen magically in the first year is the most baffling thing to me. Every team in the league with a above .500 record had to develop success and leadership on a daily basis, It did not just magically appear.

i certainly recall it "mgically" appearing when we got kidd in 2000

[brigadierjerry]

Although not a Nets fan and I posted this before in the Lakers Nets game thread these two articles point out what the discussion is about here:



http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/01/sport ... nnets&_r=0

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baske ... -1.1254122


Also, I do think the Heat had a leader in 2010-2011 season. It was Wade and him and Lebron played well until the Finals until Lebron froze. I would say using the Heat would be a bad example to use as far as lack of leadership. Your other example on my team the Knicks of last year is a good one although the coach had a lot to do with it as well in Dantoni who wasnt a good fit for the team.