Kurtz wrote:Phenomenologist wrote:
Sarcasm and irony are not synonymous. Sarcasm can and often does employ irony; it didn't, however, in this case. An ironic expression is an expression whose literal meaning is the opposite of its intended meaning, i.e. the meaning the speaker intended to convey.
Thus, assuming the stories are made up, and for the reason you say, if what he were saying was said ironically, then his intended meaning would be that Leo (and LeBron etc..) are actually great guys. That clearly wouldn't be the intended meaning of such a display, though; the intended meaning would be, as you say, just that we're morons and need to settle down. In other words, in this case it would be mockery, sarcasm, etc. but not irony.
No, Sakic has it right. Irony is a satirical device. MainEvent's satirical piece employed Irony as it's satirical device. It wasn't mockery, because mockery is explicit...and sarcasm is just a form of Irony.
Main's telling the tale where he describes Leo, etc as the terrible evils, but the implication is that the Fans are the problem, and not these celebs. Brilliant use of Irony.
Nope. For one, my point in saying that it was mockery is that sarcasm is always cutting, mocking, derisive, etc. (whereas irony does not have to be. In fact, irony can be used for the just the opposite purpose: to commiserate with someone). But, more than that, saying that "sarcasm is a form of irony" only supports my point re: the two being distinguishable concepts (which they are). The poster, assuming the stories were made up for that reason, is being satirical, and employing sarcasm in the process.
I actually think that saying, "sarcasm is a form of irony" is misleading. It's more that sarcasm can and often does
employ irony. Distinguishing the concepts in this way prevents the implication of what I think is an incorrect inheritance relationship (i.e. from irony to sarcasm).
The other thing: irony often arises organically, and is simply a way that we, as humans, choose to frame a situation (for dramatic effect). Alternatively, sarcasm is always constructed, in order to express something in a mocking, derisive, cutting, etc. way, i.e. exactly what the poster would have been doing.
Finally: as I said in my last post, irony occurs when the literal meaning of an expression is the
opposite of its intended meaning, BUT it can also occur without respect to expressions at all, and just to states of affair, whereas sarcasm needs language (and, in particular, vocal intonation*) to be conveyed.
It's a subtle distinction, but if you're going to deride others for not picking up on something, you should probably get that something right.
*This is precisely why many readers would not have picked up on it assuming it were sarcasm.
