Around the NBA part 4

[K_ick_God]

He had the best first however many starts to his career of any player ever.

Now people write it off and say it was just a mirage ... never happened ... was just hype ... didn't count. One airball means more than his ridiculously productive career in NY ... because why? Well just because. Because Frank Isola said so!

I prefer to say he actually did those things, they really happened, he did them when he was 23/24, and then factor them in to my evaluation of his talent and skills and ceiling. Crazy talk!

He played 35 games as a Knick and 53 as a Rocket. I'm not going out on a limb by saying the Rocket Lin is the more accurate representation of the real Lin.

The bottom line here is that there's not been many, if any, examples in NBA basketball history of a SG who dominates the ball like Harden (pulling down 26 PPG) alongside a PG who gets 20 and 10 or even 18 and 8.

[fdr2012]

Watched eery Rockets game this season. Lin is not limited because he doesn't have the ball. Lin is limited because he's limited.

i tend to agree with this line of thinking

The sad part is that Lin will be the first to admit this, but his followers will never do that.

[Thugger HBC]

Watched eery Rockets game this season. Lin is not limited because he doesn't have the ball. Lin is limited because he's limited.

Yep, can't say i've watched every game, but i may have missed at most 10.

He is a good player, nothing about him indicates more than that.

I think my 18/8 prediction is a good, yet high scope prediction.

[fdr2012]

The bottom line here is that there's not been many, if any, examples in NBA basketball history of a SG who dominates the ball like Harden alongside a PG who gets 20 and 10 or even 18 and 8.

Didn't the same SG play with a 23/6 PG last season? Did that NOT happen?

[K_ick_God]

And my final piece of evidence here is that head to head, Lin handled Felton with ease. He didn't even have to work that hard to outplay him and put the Knicks away. Felton's numbers in the first game were fine but the Knicks got absolutely killed. The game at MSG, with the pressure again on, Lin came out clearly on top.

It's not the only piece of my case, but it's two other important exhibits.

And nobody is even arguing with me that Felton's defense is a real problem. Lin is third in steals or thereabouts, leaguewide. He's also 9th in initiating drives.

[j4remi]

Melo is not a great fit with Lin either. I've conceded that. But Melo is not Harden, who is more of a playmaker, dribbler, ballhander. It's easier with Melo than Harden.

Melo has a higher USG than Harden...He's also operating in the post a LOT.

My larger point is that we don't get to a title by just letting Melo be Melo. He is an alpha male capable of carrying an offense, I think we all know that, but we need more motion and easier baskets that are the PG's job ... to beat elite teams.

We do need that, and by every statistical measure...Felton is BETTER at doing that and has been better any time he's worn a Knicks uniform.

I don't give Felton a failing grade in these areas. But he leaves a lot to be desired and, more importantly, I think Felton is the kind of player who does more poorly when he's pressured ... which is why he's performed terribly in two playoff outings.

Felton also was one of the best players on a weak team, making him much easier to key on. This post season will be his first time with a good team, so we'll really have to hold off on that. Lin's highest pressure game was a complete melt down against the Heat, but I'm not going to kill him for that either.

I also find it funny that everybody removes Linsanity from their calculation of how good Lin is. Buying the media hype that Lin was just on a completely aberrational run? Why? It's like buying hype that something is hype.

If you don't want to remove Linsanity, that's fine. But then Felton had the first run with the Knicks and a monster of a November with us this year (before getting hurt). He's had about 3 months of absolutely brilliant play that really does go right up against Linsanity. The only difference is with Felton, we gave Amare and Melo the credit. With Linsanity, he got the credit.

For me, I look at Linsanity as a sign of how clutch and capable this kid is. And I see no reason not to. Umm he was actually doing those things and even after Linsanity, he had 18 and 8 type games several times under Woodson.

He wasn't an 18 and 8 player under Woodson, not close. If I recall correctly he was a 16 and 6 player, which coincidentally is very similar to what Felton is giving us but he's giving us less TO's than Lin. There really is no source material to try and claim that Lin is far and away better.

Did Felton ever have a Linsanity run? No. But he did have a fast start to his Knick career, after which he tailed off considerably, and that pattern is pretty similar to this season so far as well.

Yes...yes he did. That fast start and his pre-injury start this year, those periods were just as effective as the Linsanity run. The "tail off" this year happens right after he injures both hands. It's absurd to make that allusion...and if you want to talk about a bad tail off, Linsanity to the Rockets play is a worse tail off and it's been for a longer stint than the Linsanity originally lasted.

[K_ick_God]

The bottom line here is that there's not been many, if any, examples in NBA basketball history of a SG who dominates the ball like Harden alongside a PG who gets 20 and 10 or even 18 and 8.

Didn't the same SG play with a 23/6 PG last season? Did that NOT happen?

He didn't dominate the ball. Westbrook did.

And Harden only averaged 16.8.

Proves my point.

[GONYK]

Watched eery Rockets game this season. Lin is not limited because he doesn't have the ball. Lin is limited because he's limited.

Yep, can't say i've watched every game, but i may have missed at most 10.

He is a good player, nothing about him indicates more than that.

I think my 18/8 prediction is a good, yet high scope prediction.

I'm a Rox season ticket holder. I watch Jeremy Lin in person.

Everyone in Houston agrees that Lin is a solid player with a chance to improve down the road.

Most people here see him as an above average starting PG. Most agree they would flip him for Dragic in a second.

I like Lin a lot, but he would have lost the job to Ray if he were here.

[fdr2012]

The bottom line here is that there's not been many, if any, examples in NBA basketball history of a SG who dominates the ball like Harden alongside a PG who gets 20 and 10 or even 18 and 8.

Didn't the same SG play with a 23/6 PG last season? Did that NOT happen?

He didn't dominate the ball. Westbrook did.

And Harden only averaged 16.8.

Proves my point.

Yes. It proves that the better player handles the ball more and takes more shots. So:

Westbrook > Harden > Lin

[K_ick_God]

Melo is not a great fit with Lin either. I've conceded that. But Melo is not Harden, who is more of a playmaker, dribbler, ballhander. It's easier with Melo than Harden.

Melo has a higher USG than Harden...He's also operating in the post a LOT.

My larger point is that we don't get to a title by just letting Melo be Melo. He is an alpha male capable of carrying an offense, I think we all know that, but we need more motion and easier baskets that are the PG's job ... to beat elite teams.

We do need that, and by every statistical measure...Felton is BETTER at doing that and has been better any time he's worn a Knicks uniform.

I don't give Felton a failing grade in these areas. But he leaves a lot to be desired and, more importantly, I think Felton is the kind of player who does more poorly when he's pressured ... which is why he's performed terribly in two playoff outings.

Felton also was one of the best players on a weak team, making him much easier to key on. This post season will be his first time with a good team, so we'll really have to hold off on that. Lin's highest pressure game was a complete melt down against the Heat, but I'm not going to kill him for that either.

I also find it funny that everybody removes Linsanity from their calculation of how good Lin is. Buying the media hype that Lin was just on a completely aberrational run? Why? It's like buying hype that something is hype.

If you don't want to remove Linsanity, that's fine. But then Felton had the first run with the Knicks and a monster of a November with us this year (before getting hurt). He's had about 3 months of absolutely brilliant play that really does go right up against Linsanity. The only difference is with Felton, we gave Amare and Melo the credit. With Linsanity, he got the credit.

For me, I look at Linsanity as a sign of how clutch and capable this kid is. And I see no reason not to. Umm he was actually doing those things and even after Linsanity, he had 18 and 8 type games several times under Woodson.

He wasn't an 18 and 8 player under Woodson, not close. If I recall correctly he was a 16 and 6 player, which coincidentally is very similar to what Felton is giving us but he's giving us less TO's than Lin. There really is no source material to try and claim that Lin is far and away better.

Did Felton ever have a Linsanity run? No. But he did have a fast start to his Knick career, after which he tailed off considerably, and that pattern is pretty similar to this season so far as well.

Yes...yes he did. That fast start and his pre-injury start this year, those periods were just as effective as the Linsanity run. The "tail off" this year happens right after he injures both hands. It's absurd to make that allusion...and if you want to talk about a bad tail off, Linsanity to the Rockets play is a worse tail off and it's been for a longer stint than the Linsanity originally lasted.

You can't measure the things I'm talking about in statistics. Statistics don't measure leadership or the "creativity" in the literal sense of the term of a playmaker's playmaking.

And I didn't say he averaged 18 and 8 under Woodson but he was a huge part of that team still -- he didn't lose much of anything when MD left -- and had big games. He just didn't have to go 25+ because we had our team back. Linsanity saw some inflated numbers because nobody else was playing. His teammates were the bench mostly.

[GONYK]

I would agree that Lin has more creativity as a passer than Felton.

That doesn't make him a better player overall though.

[Thugger HBC]

Watched eery Rockets game this season. Lin is not limited because he doesn't have the ball. Lin is limited because he's limited.

Yep, can't say i've watched every game, but i may have missed at most 10.

He is a good player, nothing about him indicates more than that.

I think my 18/8 prediction is a good, yet high scope prediction.

I'm a Rox season ticket holder. I watch Jeremy Lin in person.

Everyone in Houston agrees that Lin is a solid player with a chance to improve down the road.

Most people here see him as an above average starting PG. Most agree they would flip him for Dragic in a second.

I like Lin a lot, but he would have lost the job to Ray if he were here.

Voice of reason number 2, shouldn't be much of a debate against someone who see him live.

Even most Rockets fans would rather have Dragic back, no diss to Lin, as he will be a good player.

but he has alot to learn about the position he plays.

[K_ick_God]

Yes. It proves that the better player handles the ball more and takes more shots. So:

Westbrook > Harden > Lin

I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm saying Lin is a Rondo type of player and should've been given that role in NY. I'm not saying he's better than those two guys soooo not sure where you got that.

With Melo approaching the later years of his career, there was no time to waste. Some of you are choosing to stick with Felton and that's fine. But IMO, and I'm not happy about it, he is not enough.

Think of how he played against the Clippers. Hard, well and he gave it his best shot. But Paul is way better. I'm not saying Lin is Paul either, but he is a special player and a special point guard.

Letting him go was tantamount to tossing in the towel on Melo's career.

[AllanHoustonFan]

Voice of reason number 2, shouldn't be much of a debate against someone who see him live.

Even most Rockets fans would rather have Dragic back, no diss to Lin, as he will be a good player.

but he has alot to learn about the position he plays.

It's a shame a lot of people here are emotionally attached to Linsanity. It clouds their judgement for what Lin really is.

[AllanHoustonFan]

Yes. It proves that the better player handles the ball more and takes more shots. So:

Westbrook > Harden > Lin

I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm saying Lin is a Rondo type of player and should've been given that role in NY. I'm not saying he's better than those two guys soooo not sure where you got that.

With Melo approaching the later years of his career, there was no time to waste. Some of you are choosing to stick with Felton and that's fine. But IMO, and I'm not happy about it, he is not enough.

Think of how he played against the Clippers. Hard, well and he gave it his best shot. But Paul is way better. I'm not saying Lin is Paul either, but he is a special player and a special point guard.

Letting him go was tantamount to tossing in the towel on Melo's career.

CP3 would have cooked Lin too. That's why he is Chris Paul.

[K_ick_God]

I would agree that Lin has more creativity as a passer than Felton.

That doesn't make him a better player overall though.

With all due respect, and I like you as a poster, you are flipping big time here. You wanted nothing to do with Felton and viewed Lin as essential to a championship plan. You were right then but not now.

And please don't tell me that Felton has changed your mind. He's playing adequately, sure, but it's quite simple: He's just not good enough. There is nothing about Felton's 40% / 39% field-goal percentage that should've changed your mind ... to be fair.

[j4remi]

You can't measure the things I'm talking about in statistics. Statistics don't measure leadership or the "creativity" in the literal sense of the term of a playmaker's playmaking.

And I didn't say he averaged 18 and 8 under Woodson but he was a huge part of that team still -- he didn't lose much of anything when MD left -- and had big games. He just didn't have to go 25+ because we had our team back. Linsanity saw some inflated numbers because nobody else was playing. His teammates were the bench mostly.

Intangibles is not enough to make a case for a player being better...not when EVERY SINGLE measure says otherwise. If they had the same numbers, or a mixture of better and worse...then we could talk intangibles, but there's no way you take a guy for intangibles over a player who's better across the board.

As for his numbers being inflated by no one else playing...exactly. Since he's started playing with real NBA talent, he's fallen back to Earth and become a decent young PG with plenty good and plenty of flaws...Nothing more than that. In a Knicks system that focuses on wing ISO's and post-ups for Melo/JR...he'd be an after thought and I have plenty of doubts he could even match Felton's output since Felton is better at protecting the ball, dumping into the post and shooting from range. The only example of Lin without being a focal point in the offense is this season and he has been underwhelming.

[fdr2012]

Letting him go was tantamount to tossing in the towel on Melo's career.

Never saw anything last season that implied Lin was a better fit with Melo than Felton is, but this is clearly a waste of time. It's about belief and I can't argue with that.

[GONYK]

Voice of reason number 2, shouldn't be much of a debate against someone who see him live.

Even most Rockets fans would rather have Dragic back, no diss to Lin, as he will be a good player.

but he has alot to learn about the position he plays.

It's a shame a lot of people here are emotionally attached to Linsanity. It clouds their judgement for what Lin really is.

I was one of them over the summer

That changed once I saw the guy play up close every night. He's good, and he has a certain feel for the game, but there is a huge chasm between where he is and where some fans are imagining him to be at this time.

[GONYK]

I would agree that Lin has more creativity as a passer than Felton.

That doesn't make him a better player overall though.

With all due respect, and I like you as a poster, you are flipping big time here. You wanted nothing to do with Felton and viewed Lin as essential to a championship plan. You were right then but not now.

And please don't tell me that Felton has changed your mind. He's playing adequately, sure, but it's quite simple: He's just not good enough. There is nothing about Felton's 40% / 39% field-goal percentage that should've changed your mind ... to be fair.

Felton didn't change my mind.

Lin did.