Around the NBA part 4

[Thugger HBC]

KG, you went a little farther than necessary with that one, Lin is an iso player as well.

[GONYK]

i'll add my two cents to what's happening here. part of me wishes we had lin here as we could use another guard that attacks the paint and opens things up. the problem is what's going on in this thread. his fanbase would be complaining that melo is not giving him the ball enough, he should be playing over felton and the attention he would get might ruin the whole chemistry of what we have. jeremy lin the player is fine. linsanty is the problem.

I get you. But I just don't think you can make decisions for what's best for your team based on fan chatter (that's us) or idiots like Frank Isola. I know you're not saying that but the bottom line is that you have to trust that your players want to win and will do what it takes to win. Melo was always *accused* of being selfish but I think he'd have made it work if Lin could show that he was as good as he seemed to be.

I remember people saying Rondo was the weak link in the Celtics in the summer before they won the title -- too young, not good enough. Then it turned out he was the glue that delivered them a style that won them a championship.

To take what you're saying to its extreme, it's almost like Dolan decided to take Felton because he would be nothing special, certainly not a dominant point guard, and allow Melo and his golfing buddy J.R. to do whatever the heck they wanted.

If you want to win a title, you go through the struggle and pain to adapt and become a team that moves the ball, gets easy baskets, and is hard to defend. For all of Bron's strength and scoring ability, it's actually his IQ and passing that make him really great.

Another bottom line is that iso play, taking tough shots and making tough shots in the regular season, becomes a much different story in the post-season. It makes you way too easy to defend if that's how you try to win come playoff time.

What is Lin, if not an ISO player?

[K_ick_God]

KG, you went a little farther than necessary with that one, Lin is an iso player as well.

He is a good scorer and a very good one taking it at the top in iso. But he is a really good floor general and passer. Potentially elite. (BTW I really don't think of PG's scoring 1-on-1 as iso. That really doesn't apply to PG's getting hoops on their own, not to me anyway.)

His scoring got him notoriety during Linsanity. But his ability to see the floor and run the team were what I noticed most.

[K_ick_God]

i'll add my two cents to what's happening here. part of me wishes we had lin here as we could use another guard that attacks the paint and opens things up. the problem is what's going on in this thread. his fanbase would be complaining that melo is not giving him the ball enough, he should be playing over felton and the attention he would get might ruin the whole chemistry of what we have. jeremy lin the player is fine. linsanty is the problem.

I get you. But I just don't think you can make decisions for what's best for your team based on fan chatter (that's us) or idiots like Frank Isola. I know you're not saying that but the bottom line is that you have to trust that your players want to win and will do what it takes to win. Melo was always *accused* of being selfish but I think he'd have made it work if Lin could show that he was as good as he seemed to be.

I remember people saying Rondo was the weak link in the Celtics in the summer before they won the title -- too young, not good enough. Then it turned out he was the glue that delivered them a style that won them a championship.

To take what you're saying to its extreme, it's almost like Dolan decided to take Felton because he would be nothing special, certainly not a dominant point guard, and allow Melo and his golfing buddy J.R. to do whatever the heck they wanted.

If you want to win a title, you go through the struggle and pain to adapt and become a team that moves the ball, gets easy baskets, and is hard to defend. For all of Bron's strength and scoring ability, it's actually his IQ and passing that make him really great.

Another bottom line is that iso play, taking tough shots and making tough shots in the regular season, becomes a much different story in the post-season. It makes you way too easy to defend if that's how you try to win come playoff time.

What is Lin, if not an ISO player?

See ABOVE. Lin's ability to get 1-on-1 scores is nice. And it's a PG's job to get easy scores on his own when the offense is stalled. But Lin is a ball-mover and a passer, can run PNR, and has a great sense of the game.

If you're trying to say Lin is just a scorer at point, I totally disagree. He is a floor general. And I remember correctly, you agreed that he ran PNR at a high level so not sure why you've changed your mind on that too.

[seren]

Lin is a better defender than Felton is which we could use at the moment.

[Rasho Brezec]

Lin's numbers show that as far as PG duties go, he's average at best.

[Thugger HBC]

KG, you went a little farther than necessary with that one, Lin is an iso player as well.

He is a good scorer and a very good one taking it at the top in iso. But he is a really good floor general and passer. Potentially elite. (BTW I really don't think of PG's scoring 1-on-1 as iso. That really doesn't apply to PG's getting hoops on their own, not to me anyway.)

His scoring got him notoriety during Linsanity. But his ability to see the floor and run the team were what I noticed most.

PG's absolutely iso.....Toronto game winner iso, he waved everyone off on that play.

Squaring up and shooting over Dirk...iso.

Just about any play where the rest of the team freeze in position while you work is iso.

[GONYK]

See ABOVE. Lin's ability to get 1-on-1 scores is nice. And it's a PG's job to get easy scores on his own when the offense is stalled. But Lin is a ball-mover and a passer, can run PNR, and has a great sense of the game.

If you're trying to say Lin is just a scorer at point, I totally disagree. He is a floor general. And I remember correctly, you agreed that he ran PNR at a high level so not sure why you've changed your mind on that too.

I wasn't trying to say that he is just a scorer. He is primarily a scoring PG though, in the mold of what Parker was.

He does have a great feel for the PnR, but it's undeniable that Lin's style of play is a form of ISO.

You just like it better because there are more options with a PG like Lin off the ISO. I agree, that that is an effective way to play with the right player, but we weren't going to play that way with Melo, and Lin is not all the way there yet as a player.

[K_ick_God]

Just a matter of terminology more than anything. PG's going 1 on 1 is not, to me, a form of "iso" in the traditional use of the term. The PG has the ball to begin with. He either makes a play, pulls up for a jumper, or decides to attack. Iso to me is a wing player (2's and 3's mostly but some 4's like Dirk) getting the ball on a clear-out or pick.

I don't know what an iso-PG really is, anyway. Maybe Iverson or Marbury could be considered that?

Whatever the terminology, Lin sees the floor, runs an offense, and finds people for easy baskets or PNR action. He is a very capable point guard in many and most facets of the game already ... at age 24 ... and scoring 1 on 1 at the point is one of those skills by the way.

It just so happens that Felton is a very poor 1 on 1 player. He cannot get away from his defender on "iso" PG plays.

[GONYK]

Just a matter of terminology more than anything. PG's going 1 on 1 is not, to me, a form of "iso" in the traditional use of the term. The PG has the ball to begin with. He either makes a play, pulls up for a jumper, or decides to attack. Iso to me is a wing player (2's and 3's mostly but some 4's like Dirk) getting the ball on a clear-out or pick.

I don't know what an iso-PG really is, anyway. Maybe Iverson or Marbury could be considered that?

Whatever the terminology, Lin sees the floor, runs an offense, and finds people for easy baskets or PNR action. He is a very capable point guard in many and most facets of the game already ... at age 24 ... and scoring 1 on 1 at the point is one of those skills by the way.

It just so happens that Felton is a very poor 1 on 1 player. He cannot get away from his defender on "iso" PG plays.

Lin is a better penetrator than Felton, but it has not translated to consistent effectiveness or efficiency at this point.

Look, I really like Lin, and I want the kid to do well. He just hasn't proven to be the player you are arguing he is, nor has he shown anything more than flashes of the player he was during Linsanity.

You were very down on Gallo for his inconsistency in the past. It's the same story for Lin. Do I think he will be better in 2-3 years? Very much so. Today, he just isn't that player.

[K_ick_God]

Just looking at how isolation is used on a simple Google search, I couldn't find any coaches' talk where a PG taking it to the basket or shooting is considered "isolation." It's not really important but it's an interesting discussion of semantics.

Isolation, in all the instances I could find, is discussed as passing the ball off to a player and clearing the floor. One description (I can link to it) says that it's important for the isolation player not to start his dribble too soon, before the floor is spaced out, and until he's ready to make his move. Obviously PG's have already started their dribble.

Arguably there is no pick involved either since the side is cleared out.

[Thugger HBC]

Just a matter of terminology more than anything. PG's going 1 on 1 is not, to me, a form of "iso" in the traditional use of the term. The PG has the ball to begin with. He either makes a play, pulls up for a jumper, or decides to attack. Iso to me is a wing player (2's and 3's mostly but some 4's like Dirk) getting the ball on a clear-out or pick.

I don't know what an iso-PG really is, anyway. Maybe Iverson or Marbury could be considered that?

Whatever the terminology, Lin sees the floor, runs an offense, and finds people for easy baskets or PNR action. He is a very capable point guard in many and most facets of the game already ... at age 24 ... and scoring 1 on 1 at the point is one of those skills by the way.

It just so happens that Felton is a very poor 1 on 1 player. He cannot get away from his defender on "iso" PG plays.

One guy gets the ball.

His teammates back away, drawing their defenders as far from the ball as possible, and the ball-handler tries to beat his man one-on-one.

A Center could be an iso player, Ewing made a living out of it.

[Thugger HBC]

here's a piece on Lin isolations......

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/51647/lin-struggling-to-create-own-shot


Last season, Lin was one of the best isolation players in the league, according to Synergy Sports. He ranked third in the NBA in points per isolation play among the 91 players with at least 75 plays, just behind his new teammate James Harden.

Most Points per Isolation Play Last Season
Minimum 75 Isolation Plays
Chris Paul 1.08
James Harden 1.04
Jeremy Lin 1.02
Kyrie Irving 1.01
Chris Bosh 0.98

This was last season, Lin was the pure definition of an iso player....his objective was to score.

[K_ick_God]

^
http://www.coachesclipboard.net/Isolation2.html

http://www.weplay.com/youth-basketball/ ... ation-Play

http://www.ehow.com/how_2073938_run-iso ... tball.html

[Thugger HBC]

KG are you suggesting a pg isn't a wing player?

I use Ewing specifically because of his jumper on offense he played alot from outside the paint.

[K_ick_God]

Just a matter of terminology more than anything. PG's going 1 on 1 is not, to me, a form of "iso" in the traditional use of the term. The PG has the ball to begin with. He either makes a play, pulls up for a jumper, or decides to attack. Iso to me is a wing player (2's and 3's mostly but some 4's like Dirk) getting the ball on a clear-out or pick.

I don't know what an iso-PG really is, anyway. Maybe Iverson or Marbury could be considered that?

Whatever the terminology, Lin sees the floor, runs an offense, and finds people for easy baskets or PNR action. He is a very capable point guard in many and most facets of the game already ... at age 24 ... and scoring 1 on 1 at the point is one of those skills by the way.

It just so happens that Felton is a very poor 1 on 1 player. He cannot get away from his defender on "iso" PG plays.

One guy gets the ball.

His teammates back away, drawing their defenders as far from the ball as possible, and the ball-handler tries to beat his man one-on-one.

A Center could be an iso player, Ewing made a living out of it.

I don't see it my friend. That's the first time I've heard Ewing described as an iso player. I think you're stretching. But it's just a word.

If Lin came down, and was handed the ball by a PG to go at his man in isolation, then it makes more sense.

Arguably it only happens on the wings when that whole side is cleared out. Arguably you can't isolate at the top.

[GONYK]

I don't see it my friend. That's the first time I've heard Ewing described as an iso player. I think you're stretching. But it's just a word.

If Lin came down, and was handed the ball by a PG to go at his man in isolation, then it makes more sense.

Arguably it only happens on the wings when that whole side is cleared out. Arguably you can't isolate at the top.

All post play is isolation

[K_ick_God]

KG are you suggesting a pg isn't a wing player?

I use Ewing specifically because of his jumper on offense he played alot from outside the paint.

I'm suggesting that PG's are not really capable of a traditional "isolation" if they bring the ball down. And arguably they're not capable of isolating at the top either. An isolation, a classic one anyway, is a clearout on one side of the court.

But it's fine if you want to use it. I just think you're using it to try to equate Lin's ability to score 1 on 1 with, say, Melo's favorite play which is to break his man down on the wings with no help defenders nearby. They're not the same thing really.

All PG's, in your definition, go "iso" ... it's part of being a point guard to attack 1 on 1.

[Thugger HBC]

An isolation is merely a clear out for one player to score the ball.

That can be done from any position on the court.

[K_ick_God]

I don't see it my friend. That's the first time I've heard Ewing described as an iso player. I think you're stretching. But it's just a word.

If Lin came down, and was handed the ball by a PG to go at his man in isolation, then it makes more sense.

Arguably it only happens on the wings when that whole side is cleared out. Arguably you can't isolate at the top.

All post play is isolation

This is not true IMO. An isolation play is a handoff to one man to go one on one, rarely in the post but sometimes. Usually on the perimeter. So you can argue that most every play is an isolation then -- as long as you are not playing against a zone, or attempting a shot against a double team, you are in isolation?