North Korea successfully launches nuke test

[johnnywishbone]

^^

Iran has destroyed Lebannon by creating a state within a state and assassinated the President of the country.

Iran is the main benefactor of the Syrian President who has killed tens of thousands of his own people over the last couple of years.

Iran murdered 300 US marines in the 1983 Beiruit Embassy bombing.

Iran is constantly undermining America's efforts to create a stable democracy in Afghanistan.

Iran supplies Hezbollah and Hamas with rockets to shoot at Israel.

Iran supplied and trained the Mahdi army who created a civil war inside Iraq and killed US servicemen.

Iran "invented" airplane hijacking.

Iran brought in Lebanese mercenaries to beat their own people who protested the results of their last election.

In Iran the government actually has a saying - everyone is guilty, we just don't know of what (yet).

For someone who is so paranoid of a police state it's amazing that you love this one.

One question for you.

What's that in the middle of your flag?

[AndroidMan]

^^

Iran has destroyed Lebannon by creating a state within a state and assassinated the President of the country.

Iran is the main benefactor of the Syrian President who has killed tens of thousands of his own people over the last couple of years.

Iran murdered 300 US marines in the 1983 Beiruit Embassy bombing.

Iran is constantly undermining America's efforts to create a stable democracy in Afghanistan.

Iran supplies Hezbollah and Hamas with rockets to shoot at Israel.

Iran supplied and trained the Mahdi army who created a civil war inside Iraq and killed US servicemen.

Iran "invented" airplane hijacking.

Iran brought in Lebanese mercenaries to beat their own people who protested the results of their last election.

In Iran the government actually has a saying - everyone is guilty, we just don't know of what (yet).

All of that is opinion. If you can show me where iran has invaded another country I will confess I was wrong, until then you are still a creepy guy. Seriously though, if you live in Hawaii, why are you on the computer all damn day. Go live life and enjoy a little bit, and give people the impression that you actually enjoy your life outside of realgm.

[Thugger HBC]

Guys i know the off-topic stuff will trigger a personal response, but please keep it civil.

[Dr. Detfink]

The only thing North Korea is likely to do is getting a whupping by China IF they don't blow themselves up with unsafe practices. Nukes are bad for business. China wants to be the only Superpower on that block.

[NYK_89]

Well lets face it these countries want it so they will become virtually un-invadeable.. However ESPECIALLY in NK's case they would not in any sense be above selling it into the wrong hands for the right price.

But the thought that NK would shoot a nuke at California is a little strange... Not only would their puny nukes do limited damage if not taken out before it reaches us North Korea would cease to be a country in about 15 minutes. China SK and our troops in SK would basically have that country at its knees within a day, that is unless we wouldn't just nuke them off the map.

However as i said before nobody wants to invade NK when you are risking a Nuke hitting SK or the invading armies themselves.

[NYK_89]

The only thing North Korea is likely to do is getting a whupping by China IF they don't blow themselves up with unsafe practices. Nukes are bad for business. China wants to be the only Superpower on that block.

To be fair they are far from a risk of becoming a super power and their closest allies are China and Russia... Although they are "putting up" with them at best.

[johnnywishbone]

^^

Iran has destroyed Lebannon by creating a state within a state and assassinated the President of the country.

Iran is the main benefactor of the Syrian President who has killed tens of thousands of his own people over the last couple of years.

Iran murdered 300 US marines in the 1983 Beiruit Embassy bombing.

Iran is constantly undermining America's efforts to create a stable democracy in Afghanistan.

Iran supplies Hezbollah and Hamas with rockets to shoot at Israel.

Iran supplied and trained the Mahdi army who created a civil war inside Iraq and killed US servicemen.

Iran "invented" airplane hijacking.

Iran brought in Lebanese mercenaries to beat their own people who protested the results of their last election.

In Iran the government actually has a saying - everyone is guilty, we just don't know of what (yet).

All of that is opinion. If you can show me where iran has invaded another country I will confess I was wrong, until then you are still a creepy guy. Seriously though, if you live in Hawaii, why are you on the computer all damn day. Go live life and enjoy a little bit, and give people the impression that you actually enjoy your life outside of realgm.

I don't think there is any argument that President Assad's main benefactor is Iran.

On October 3 and December 28, 2001, the families of 241 servicemen who were killed as well as several injured survivors filed civil suits against Islamic Republic of Iran and the Ministry of Information and Security (MOIS) in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia. [46] In their separate complaints, the families and survivors sought a judgment that Iran was responsible for the attack and relief in the form of damages (compensatory and punitive) for wrongful death and common-law claims for battery, assault, and intentional infliction of emotional distress resulting from an act of state-sponsored terrorism.[46]
Iran (the defendants) was served with the two complaints (one from Deborah D. Peterson, Personal Representative of the Estate of James C. Knipple, et al., the other from Joseph and Marie Boulos, Personal Representatives of the Estate of Jeffrey Joseph Boulos) on May 6 and July 17, 2002.[46] Iran denied responsibility for the attack[47] but did not file any response to the claims of the families.[46] On December 18, 2002, Judge Royce C. Lamberth entered defaults against defendants in both cases.[46]
On May 30, 2003, Lamberth found Iran legally responsible for providing Hezbollah with financial and logistical support that helped them carry out the attack.[46][48] Lamberth concluded that the court had personal jurisdiction over the defendants under the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act, that Hezbollah was formed under the auspices of the Iranian government and was completely reliant on Iran in 1983, and that Hezbollah carried out the attack in conjunction with MOIS agents.[46]
On September 7, 2007, Lamberth awarded $2,656,944,877 to the plaintiffs. The judgment was divided up among the victims; the largest award was $12 million to Larry Gerlach, who became a quadriplegic as a result of a broken neck he suffered in the attack.[49]
The attorney for the families of the victims uncovered some new information, including a National Security Agency (NSA) intercept of a message sent from Iranian intelligence headquarters in Tehran to Hojjat ol-eslam Ali-Akbar Mohtashemi, the Iranian ambassador in Damascus. As it was paraphrased by presiding U.S. District Court Judge Royce C. Lamberth, "The message directed the Iranian ambassador to contact Hussein Musawi, the leader of the terrorist group Islamic Amal, and to instruct him ... 'to take a spectacular action against the United States Marines.'"[50] Musawi's Islamic Amal was a breakaway faction of the Amal Movement and an autonomous part of embryonic Hezbollah.[51]
In July 2012, federal Judge Royce Lamberth ordered Iran to pay more than $813m in damages and interest to the families of the 241 US soldiers that were killed, writing in a ruling that Tehran had to be "punished to the fullest extent legally possible... Iran is racking up quite a bill from its sponsorship of terrorism."[52][53][54][55]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beiru ... ainst_Iran

Iran also co-operated in setting up the government of President Karzai.

The Iranian and Afghan governments have continued to maintain friendly relations. Hamid Karzai has made a number of trips to Tehran.

At the same time, there have been many reports that Iran is playing both sides in Afghanistan, just as it is alleged to have done in Iraq: on the one hand providing support for the government, on the other hand providing support for insurgents and war-lords, both in order to weaken the Afghan government and to tie down the forces of America and its allies.

A report on the Reuters news agency quotes warnings about the power of Iran from a former governor of Nimroz province, the Afghan province bordering Iran and Afghanistan.

Ghulam Dastgir Azaad said he frequently investigated attacks in which Iran was implicated, either in supplying weapons or training the insurgents.

"We [in this province] share 90km of border with Iran, which Iran easily exploits to send, regularly, explosive devices and weapons into Afghanistan," the former governor told the news agency.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11621525

Breakthrough in Tribunal Investigation: New Evidence Points to Hezbollah in Hariri [President of Lebanon] Murder

http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 26412.html

...

The whereabouts of the two Beirut groups of mobile phone users coincided again and again, and they were sometimes located near the site of the attack. The romantic attachment of one of the terrorists led the cyber-detectives directly to one of the main suspects. He committed the unbelievable indiscretion of calling his girlfriend from one of the "hot" phones. It only happened once, but it was enough to identify the man. He is believed to be Abd al-Majid Ghamlush, from the town of Rumin, a Hezbollah member who had completed a training course in Iran. Ghamlush was also identified as the buyer of the mobile phones. He has since disappeared, and perhaps is no longer alive.

Ghamlush's recklessness led investigators to the man they now suspect was the mastermind of the terrorist attack: Hajj Salim, 45. A southern Lebanese from Nabatiyah, Salim is considered to be the commander of the "military" wing of Hezbollah and lives in South Beirut, a **** stronghold. Salim's secret "Special Operational Unit" reports directly to Hezbollah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah, 48.

A Lebanese demonstrator holds a portrait of ex-prime minister Rafiq Hariri and a sign reading "justice" in Arabic.
Imad Mughniyah, one of the world's most wanted terrorists, ran the unit until Feb. 12, 2008, when he was killed in an attack in Damascus, presumably by Israeli intelligence. Since then, Salim has largely assumed the duties of his notorious predecessor, with Mughniyah's brother-in-law, Mustafa Badr al-Din, serving as his deputy. The two men report only to their superior, and to General Kassim Sulaimani, their contact in Tehran. The Iranians, the principal financiers of the military Lebanese "Party of God," have repressed the Syrians' influence.

Do you want me to keep going or is that enough?

[j127]

For people who say North Korea is not a threat to the US, you may have to rethink that. North Korea is continually researching long range rockets that can reach continental US. As of now, I think they're best long range rocket has the ability to reach Guam/Hawaii. It's only a matter of time before they're able to build a rocket that can reach the west coast of the US.

That's not to say they'll have rockets with any precision, but just the fact that they'll have that technology and be able to sell it to buyers like Iran is not a good sign.

I do feel that rogue nations are the biggest threat to the US, since rogue nations too small for the US to "take care of", but large enough that they have the resources to threaten the US. All rogue nations need is time. With enough time, they'll be great threats (e.g., North Korea and Iran).

[androidmanputo]

Before I am so predictably called an anti semite, I will say that I don't hate Jewish people, but rather Zionism, and yes there's a difference. Here are some Jewish people I support, who condemn and oppose Zionism and Israeli aggression.

Na youre def. an "anti semite" you little punk ass b*tch. Youre probably a black muslim or some lame sh*t like that, posting absurd nonsense that's completely untrue about israel.

jewish people are some of the most successfull, peaceful, respected, and beautiful people on the PLANET for a reason. YOUR people however, ARE NOT. Buncha thieving, murderous, untouchable, ugly, smelly, politically insane LOSERS.

I'm gonna trace your ip with netstat, run an foia to my county clerks, find you and bash your face in "bear jew" style. it's gonna be great. and mods, stay the hell out of this. if this racist idiot wants to start a race riot by spewing disgusting nontruths about one of the most civilized nations on the planet, who has had chances to bomb palestine out of existence but DIDN'T, then that's his fault not mine.

kids just jealous b/c his dicks tiny as hell, and his mom left his n*gger islam daddy for a REAL MAN, aka some big d*cked jewish stud who actually HAD A JOB.

sorry last time i checked azzhole, israel doesnt threaten people nonsensically with nuclear bombs, and violence.

Youre an idiot, and your whole family is probably inbred...

[CDAZ]

i dont think iran is dumb enough to develop nukes to use them. they want it for deterrence against israel when they inevitably attempt to seize more power/control over the middle east

north korea is unhinged. there is no telling what they will do and those people there are dumb enough to fire a nuke at japan, south korea, usa just because they can.

This makes no sense? Why would Iran need deterrence against Israel? Israel doesn't even have a common border with Iran. The entire Iranian-Israeli dispute had been manufactured by the Iranians. Israel has no interests in Iran, other than not wanting to be hit by their nukes.

If anything, they want it as deterrence against the US, not Israel.

If Iran does get a nuke, it will go off at some point within the US. You really don't understand the Iranian state of mind and goals. They are religious fanatics at their core and they seek world domination at any cost.

Here we go

[CDAZ]

Before I am so predictably called an anti semite, I will say that I don't hate Jewish people, but rather Zionism, and yes there's a difference. Here are some Jewish people I support, who condemn and oppose Zionism and Israeli aggression.

Na youre def. an "anti semite" you little punk ass b*tch. Youre probably a black muslim or some lame sh*t like that, posting absurd nonsense that's completely untrue about israel.

jewish people are some of the most successfull, peaceful, respected, and beautiful people on the PLANET for a reason. YOUR people however, ARE NOT. Buncha thieving, murderous, untouchable, ugly, smelly, politically insane LOSERS.

I'm gonna trace your ip with netstat, run an foia to my county clerks, find you and bash your face in "bear jew" style. it's gonna be great. and mods, stay the hell out of this. if this racist idiot wants to start a race riot by spewing disgusting nontruths about one of the most civilized nations on the planet, who has had chances to bomb palestine out of existence but DIDN'T, then that's his fault not mine.

kids just jealous b/c his dicks tiny as hell, and his mom left his n*gger islam daddy for a REAL MAN, aka some big d*cked jewish stud who actually HAD A JOB.

sorry last time i checked azzhole, israel doesnt threaten people nonsensically with nuclear bombs, and violence.

Youre an idiot, and your whole family is probably inbred...

And to that ignorance I respond with this
http://www.biopoliticaltimes.org/article.php?id=6679

After five years of denials, Israeli government officials have admitted to targeting Ethiopian Jewish immigrant women with long-acting contraceptive injections without their consent. Most of the women were either coerced into accepting the Depo Provera injections while living in Israeli-run transit camps in Ethiopia, or were unaware that the injections produced temporary sterilization.

This controversy first surfaced in 2008, when Sebba Reuven interviewed 35 Ethiopian women awaiting immigration to Israel. Some of their stories were included in a report by Israeli investigative journalist Gal Gabbay that aired several weeks ago on Israeli Educational Television. One Ethiopian woman explained:
We said we won’t have the shot. They told us, “if you don’t you won’t go to Israel…you won’t get aid or medical care.” We were afraid…We didn’t have a choice. Without them and their aid we couldn’t leave there. So we accepted the injection. It was only with their permission that we were allowed to leave.
After arriving in Israel, the Ethiopian immigrants still received Depo Provera in disproportionate numbers in the HMOs providing health care services. According to a report by Hedva Eyal at Isha L’Isha, a feminist organization in Haifa, among the 4833 Israeli women injected with Depo Provera between 2005 and 2008, 57% were of Ethiopian origin—yet Ethiopians comprise less than 2% of the population. Over the past 10 years, Ethiopians in Israel have experienced a 50% decline in birthrate.

Women’s groups in Israel were alerted to the situation in 2008, when Rachel Mangoli, who runs a day care center for 120 Ethiopian children in a suburb of Tel Aviv with a large Ethiopian community, observed that she had received only one new child in the previous three years. According to Mangoli:
I started to think about how strange the situation was after I had to send back donated baby clothes because there was no one in the community to give them to.
In 2008, when queried about the discrepancy between Depo Provera use among Ethiopians and other groups, Israeli Health Minister Yaacov Ben Yezri reportedly explained that Ethiopian women had a “cultural preference” for contraceptive injection. However, World Health Organization reports on contraceptive use in Ethiopia reveal that this is not the case; in fact, three-quarters of women in Ethiopia using birth control choose the contraceptive pill. Ethiopian-born social worker Mekonen-Dego told the Los Angeles Times that “the suggestion Ethiopian women can’t be trusted with responsibility for their own health is outrageous.”

Haaretz reported this week that Health Ministry Director General Prof. Ron Gamzu has now ordered four health maintenance organizations to discontinue prescriptions of Depo Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if “for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment.” Sharona Eliahu Chai, a lawyer for the Association of Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI), whose complaint prompted Gamzu’s response, said:
Findings from investigations into the use of Depo Provera are extremely worrisome, raising concerns of harmful health policies with racist implications in violation of medical ethics.
The use of Depo Provera among Ethiopian immigrants is particularly disturbing because its side effects—including depression, dizziness, abdominal pain, loss of bone density, and possibly increased breast and cervical cancer rates—are well-known. To impose it without proper consent amounts to a potentially harmful policy of compulsory contraception.

The Depo Provera scandal takes place against the background of the Israeli government pro-natalist policies that provide incentives for other (fairer) Jewish women to produce more children, in part as a demographic race with Palestinians. Unfortunately, this contradictory approach to reproductive policy is in keeping with the social and ethnic stratification of Israeli society. In The Chosen Body (2002), Meira Weiss describes Israeli “body politics” that put white Ashkenazi (European Jewish) male bodies at the top of the social hierarchy. In descending order, they are followed by Mizrahi (Middle Eastern Jews), and then by Ethiopian Jews. Only Israeli Arabs, non-Jewish immigrants, and Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories rank lower.

The coerced prescription of Depo Provera to Ethiopian Jews also stems from broader dynamics in Israeli society. These include lingering questions voiced by a number of Ultra Orthodox Israeli rabbis and others about whether Ethiopian immigrants are actually Jewish; concern that African immigrants in general are a drain on the system and will, as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu put it, “threaten our existence as a Jewish and democratic state”; and widespread discrimination against Ethiopian Jews, who often live in marginalized and impoverished communities and who face social barriers to equal access to jobs, education and housing.

Of course, contraceptive coercion is not restricted to Israel. Depo Provera, and other long-term contraceptives, have been widely tested and used on marginalized women throughout the Third World, including in apartheid South Africa, among Afghan refugees in Iran, and among poor black women in the United States.

World-wide, the struggle for reproductive and social justice demands attention. The Israeli Health Ministry’s revised directive about the use Depo Provera is a small step in the right direction. However, the discriminatory policies of the Israeli government, toward various ethnic and religious groups, require continued scrutiny.

[PrecociousNeoph]

the concern over dprk getting a nuke is not just them using it on us, it's them using it on South Korea or japan, whom they despise just as much and both of which are well within range of a missile, it's them giving it to a terrorist network like al qaeda, it's a terrorist network like al qaeda trying to steal it, before shipping it in a container to LA, etc. there was quiet optimism that after Jong il died Jong un would be more open to talking to the west, but he has turned out so far to be no different than his father.

[knicksRback]

North Korea is absolutely no threat to us...they have no idea, we have our drones constantly surveilling whole entire North Korea watching their every move. We have defense systems too, we got errthang , North Korea doesnt know whats coming to them if they ever did something stupid (which i hope they do nothing and be peaceful)

There just trying to flex their guns thats all

[matchman]

the concern over dprk getting a nuke is not just them using it on us, it's them using it on South Korea or japan, whom they despise just as much and both of which are well within range of a missile, it's them giving it to a terrorist network like al qaeda, it's a terrorist network like al qaeda trying to steal it, before shipping it in a container to LA, etc. there was quiet optimism that after Jong il died Jong un would be more open to talking to the west, but he has turned out so far to be no different than his father.

Or worse, or less containable in China's POV.

[matchman]

However I have a question to ask, what do you think of the chances USA works with North Korea together as the way they deal with Burma? Any possibility?

[AndroidMan]

Before I am so predictably called an anti semite, I will say that I don't hate Jewish people, but rather Zionism, and yes there's a difference. Here are some Jewish people I support, who condemn and oppose Zionism and Israeli aggression.

Na youre def. an "anti semite" you little punk ass b*tch. Youre probably a black muslim or some lame sh*t like that, posting absurd nonsense that's completely untrue about israel.

jewish people are some of the most successfull, peaceful, respected, and beautiful people on the PLANET for a reason. YOUR people however, ARE NOT. Buncha thieving, murderous, untouchable, ugly, smelly, politically insane LOSERS.

I'm gonna trace your ip with netstat, run an foia to my county clerks, find you and bash your face in "bear jew" style. it's gonna be great. and mods, stay the hell out of this. if this racist idiot wants to start a race riot by spewing disgusting nontruths about one of the most civilized nations on the planet, who has had chances to bomb palestine out of existence but DIDN'T, then that's his fault not mine.

kids just jealous b/c his dicks tiny as hell, and his mom left his n*gger islam daddy for a REAL MAN, aka some big d*cked jewish stud who actually HAD A JOB.

sorry last time i checked azzhole, israel doesnt threaten people nonsensically with nuclear bombs, and violence.

Youre an idiot, and your whole family is probably inbred...

I leave Realgm for a few days thinking not much would happen in my absence. To my delight, however, I discovered a fanclub had been created in my absence. It truly warms my heart. Bravo, let your hate flow.

[AndroidMan]

For people who say North Korea is not a threat to the US, you may have to rethink that. North Korea is continually researching long range rockets that can reach continental US. As of now, I think they're best long range rocket has the ability to reach Guam/Hawaii. It's only a matter of time before they're able to build a rocket that can reach the west coast of the US.

That's not to say they'll have rockets with any precision, but just the fact that they'll have that technology and be able to sell it to buyers like Iran is not a good sign.

I do feel that rogue nations are the biggest threat to the US, since rogue nations too small for the US to "take care of", but large enough that they have the resources to threaten the US. All rogue nations need is time. With enough time, they'll be great threats (e.g., North Korea and Iran).

The reality is that even if the North wanted to hit a continental uS target with a warhead, they face very difficult obstacles. One obstacle is building a nuclear device that is small and powerful enough, so that it can fit on a missile that can deliver it. Building a nuke is not enough. You need to build a nuke small and powerful enough, which takes significant planning and resources. I doubt the N is anywhere close to achieving that sophistication.

Another obstacle they face is building a warhead that will not be destroyed upon re-entry into the earth's atmosphere. Upon re-entry, a warhead is subjected to extreme vibrations and heat. Once again, the North is nowhere even close to developing a rocket that would not immediately disintegrate upon re-entry.

A third obstacle they would face, is testing enough rockets that have a near guarantee of successful launch. To make a nuclear missile operational, you have to do extensive amounts of research and testing to ensure the device will not fail at the launch site, whereby killing all the scientists and local population. Once again, the North is nowhere close to perfecting and assuring missile success at a high enough rate to launch nukes.

All in all, a North Korean nuclear missile attack is highly unlikely, considering they don't even have the ability to do so. Even if we hypothetically assume they did, we still have mutually assured destruction as a deterrent to such action. The North and their leader might indeed be crazy, but not crazy enough that they don't want to see tomorrow. The thought of them selling their nukes on the open market is likely absurdas well. If they did arm a non governmental hostile(terrorist), links will be traced back to them and they would face destruction of their own. Yet again, in that scenario, I see MAD playing an effective deterrent from nuclear aggression.

[Ignitowsky]

the concern over dprk getting a nuke is not just them using it on us, it's them using it on South Korea or japan, whom they despise just as much and both of which are well within range of a missile, it's them giving it to a terrorist network like al qaeda, it's a terrorist network like al qaeda trying to steal it, before shipping it in a container to LA, etc. there was quiet optimism that after Jong il died Jong un would be more open to talking to the west, but he has turned out so far to be no different than his father.

Or worse, or less containable in China's POV.

north korea with a nuke would definitely be cause for concern, mainly because of the implications for South korea mainly (as Precocious said), however, the real danger that is never talked about is some terroist group getting its' hands on even a small ammount of nuclear material and exploding a dirty bomb in some highly populated area. I think that is the scenario that has Homeland Security types waking up in a cold sweat.

[johnnywishbone]

the concern over dprk getting a nuke is not just them using it on us, it's them using it on South Korea or japan, whom they despise just as much and both of which are well within range of a missile, it's them giving it to a terrorist network like al qaeda, it's a terrorist network like al qaeda trying to steal it, before shipping it in a container to LA, etc. there was quiet optimism that after Jong il died Jong un would be more open to talking to the west, but he has turned out so far to be no different than his father.

Or worse, or less containable in China's POV.

I think it's very hard to judge these things because the society is so opaque. How much of this is for internal consumption is something that we don't know i.e. is the motivation for this series of "tests" an attempt by the "new dear leader" to solidify his claim as tyrant? Perhaps he is concerned that if he is perceived as being weak he will be replaced by the military. He is definitely walking a high wire though because if the tests alienate his main benefactor (China) how long can the regime last?

It's all speculation but it just goes to show how complicated this situation is. And I do believe that this guy has to be more concerned with internal enemies than anybody else (see Syria, Egypt, Iran, Libya et al...)

As far as working with him goes... I imagine his motivation is that he wants to continue to run the country with some sort of security guarantees. So what's the implication of that? Not only will we not attack/sanction him but we should start selling him conventional weapons to suppress his people in exchange for abandoning his nuclear pursuits? I don't think the US is willing to do that. He is not sitting on a sea of oil.

My guess is this will march along like it currently is until the weight of sanctions, isolation and the anger of the people finally collapses the regime. And that is the most dangerous point for the US/World because you don't want a situation where nuclear weapons get lost in the chaos.