Comparing Knight to other slow starters at PG.

[Pharaoh]

i think those stats answer every question you asked.

No, they don't answer what I asked.

I asked what statistical output/demonstrated skill it would take to get you people to stop... you posted the numbers that made you start!

Are you unable to articulate what you want to see from Knight?

meaningless question. i want to see from Knight nothing. he is unable to run a nba team. above stats show that to people who understand the game.

It's a meaningless question? WTF? If you are unable to explain what you want to see from Knight then you shouldn't be complaining about what he delivers.

How can anyone take you seriously if you don't explain where your expectations are? If are unable to stat the level of play you require to be "happy" with Knight then how can you complain when he "fails"?

All I'm trying to do is establish some kind of standard... some kind of level that is fair and reasonable... something we can use to measure Knight

There are countless threads complaining about Knight... but from what I can gather there is nothing tangible to measure Knight's performance against... people are complaining because Knight has lived to live up to their hopes and expectations.

You can't whine and complain because a player doesn't meet your expectations or your hopes... otherwise you'd complain about every single player in the NBA depending on the day/night. To have a truely intelligent debate you must first establish a level that is fair and reasonable... and then measure said player against that level... which I'm about to do in the next post

he has not point guard instinct and has not shooting guard body. he is a scrub. that's it.

[Pharaoh]

I thought a stat guru here would post something that would be very interesting... instead you posted the following stats:

I didn't post those stats.

My mistake... I'm engaged in several discussions at once within the thread and it's hard to keep track.

http://www.hoopdata.com/regstats.aspx?t ... =0&mins=30

Average shooting percentage is 44.1%. Knights 40.6% ranks 24th out of 29 players listed.
Average 3 point shooting percentage is 36%. Knight's 35.9% ranks 14th out of 29 players listed.
Average assists per game is 6.7. Knight's 4.4 ranks 27th out of 29 players listed.
Average steals per game is 1.5. Knight's 0.7 ranks 27th out of 29 players listed.
He also ranks near the bottom in free throw % and is average in turnovers.

FG% for Knight is 3.5% off the average...
3 point shooting % is 0.1% off the average
He's 2.3 assists off the average
And 0.8 steals off the average

So... Knight's 3 point shooting is average in comparison to other PGs.... everything else is slightly below average.

I say slightly... someone might claim that 3.5% is significant.... it's up to the individual I guess... but these are the numbers I wanted... thank you for posting them

Statistically speaking Knight is slightly below average. There can be no arguement...

So now what?

Do you give up on him after less than 150 games?

Do we whine and complain and moan about the fact that Knight has been slightly below average?

Or

do we applaud the fact that Joe Dumars and the organisation saw the signs and acquired Jose Calderon to mentor Knight?

Some people see the glass as half empty... others see it as half full... how do you see it?

[jaredtyshaf]

This threads purpose was to show that a good bit of slow starting PGs with potential end up panning out if a team is patient with them. By no means does this mean ALL young PGs will pan out if a team gives them 3-5 years to develop.

That being said I feel that being patient with Knight and letting him develop is well worth the risk of him potentially not becoming our starting PG. He is still on a very cheap rookie contract so it really isn't a financial risk for the Pistons to let develop either.

[JustinSane]

I understand why others could think those of us who are down on Knight are impatient or over-reacting. He's young, he usually outplays Irving head-to-head, he's a decent three point shooter, he is intelligent and works hard. All of that suggests he should be given time.

However, there have been very, very few examples of point guards who started as bad as Knight and improved as little from first year to second who went on to have good careers. If you still think Knight is a potentially average point guard, you believe he is a historic anomaly. I don't see any reason we should think he's the exception rather than the rule. Even in college he wasn't particularly efficient. His body of work just gives nothing objective to use if you're trying to build a coherent case for him.

Also, slightly to moderately worse than average at his position at nearly every meaningful statistical metric, and better than average in none, doesn't add up to "slightly worse than average". It adds up to terrible.

If next year he can get to the league average assist to turnover ratio and true shooting percentage for PGs, I'll be thrilled and more than happy to eat crow. But I would wager pretty heavily, were I a betting man, against that happening.

[Brapman]

This threads purpose was to show that a good bit of slow starting PGs with potential end up panning out if a team is patient with them. By no means does this mean ALL young PGs will pan out if a team gives them 3-5 years to develop.

That being said I feel that being patient with Knight and letting him develop is well worth the risk of him potentially not becoming our starting PG. He is still on a very cheap rookie contract so it really isn't a financial risk for the Pistons to let develop either.

Exactly.

And, looking from the opposite angle, absolutely no slow starting PG's develop if their team gives up on them. If the Pistons were in the middle of the Bad Boy years, or the Billups led championship years, then Knight would, rightfully, have been buried - possibly in a career ruining way. The Pistons are 2-3 years away (at best) from that type of contention, so there is absolutely zero good reason to give up on great young talents like Knight - unless an Irving falls into our lap.

[Scout Taron]

4.4 apg is slightly below average?

[ComboGuardCity]

Let's also to take into account that the year is not over.

[jaredtyshaf]

This threads purpose was to show that a good bit of slow starting PGs with potential end up panning out if a team is patient with them. By no means does this mean ALL young PGs will pan out if a team gives them 3-5 years to develop.

That being said I feel that being patient with Knight and letting him develop is well worth the risk of him potentially not becoming our starting PG. He is still on a very cheap rookie contract so it really isn't a financial risk for the Pistons to let develop either.

Exactly.

And, looking from the opposite angle, absolutely no slow starting PG's develop if their team gives up on them. If the Pistons were in the middle of the Bad Boy years, or the Billups led championship years, then Knight would, rightfully, have been buried - possibly in a career ruining way. The Pistons are 2-3 years away (at best) from that type of contention, so there is absolutely zero good reason to give up on great young talents like Knight - unless an Irving falls into our lap.

That's the way I feel about it. I am pretty sure that is the way Joe D feels about it too. Unless Knight lands us a star I say we just keep letting him develop.

[jaredtyshaf]

For those saying I only picked a select few....

“Lottery” PG Prospects from the last 5 drafts (Excluding 2012)

2007:

Mike Conley (1 Team)

1st: GP(53) GS (46) Min (26.1) Pts (9.4) Ast (4.2) FG% (.428) 3P% (.330)
2nd: GP(82) GS (61) Min (30.6) Pts (10.9) Ast (4.3) FG% (.442) 3P% (.406)
3rd: GP(80) GS (80) Min (32.1) Pts (12.0) Ast (5.3) FG% (.445) 3P% (.387)
4th: GP(81) GS (81) Min (35.5) Pts (13.7) Ast (6.5) FG% (.444) 3P% (.369)
5th: GP(62) GS (61) Min (35.1) Pts (12.7) Ast (6.5) FG% (.433) 3P% (.377)
6th: GP(49) GS (49) Min (33.7) Pts (13.3) Ast (5.9) FG% (.426) 3P% (.365)

Acie Law (5 Teams)

1st: GP(56) GS (6) Min (15.4) Pts (4.2) Ast (2.0) FG% (.401) 3P% (.206)
2nd: GP(55) GS (1) Min (10.2) Pts (2.9) Ast (1.6) FG% (.374) 3P% (.310)
3rd: GP(26) GS (1) Min (9.0) Pts (4.3) Ast (1.0) FG% (.467) 3P% (.313)
4th: GP(51) GS (0) Min (14.2) Pts (4.2) Ast (1.6) FG% (.435) 3P% (.167)
5th: Out of League

2008:

Derrick Rose (1 Team)

1st: GP(81) GS (80) Min (37.0) Pts (16.8) Ast (6.3) FG% (.475) 3P% (.222)
2nd: GP(78) GS (78) Min (36.8) Pts (20.8) Ast (6.0) FG% (.489) 3P% (.267)
3rd: GP(81) GS (81) Min (37.4) Pts (25.0) Ast (7.7) FG% (.445) 3P% (.332)
4th: GP(39) GS (39) Min (35.3) Pts (21.8) Ast (7.9) FG% (.435) 3P% (.312)
5th: Injured

Russell Westbrook (1 Team)

1st: GP(82) GS (65) Min (32.5) Pts (15.3) Ast (5.3) FG% (.398) 3P% (.271)
2nd: GP(82) GS (82) Min (34.3) Pts (16.1) Ast (8.0) FG% (.418) 3P% (.221)
3rd: GP(82) GS (82) Min (34.7) Pts (21.9) Ast (8.2) FG% (.442) 3P% (.330)
4th: GP(66) GS (66) Min (35.3) Pts (23.6) Ast (5.5) FG% (.457) 3P% (.316)
5th: GP(53) GS (53) Min (35.7) Pts (22.6) Ast (8.1) FG% (.426) 3P% (.328)

DJ Augustin (2 Teams)

1st: GP(72) GS (12) Min (26.5) Pts (11.8) Ast (3.5) FG% (.430) 3P% (.439)
2nd: GP(80) GS (2) Min (18.4) Pts (6.4) Ast (2.4) FG% (.386) 3P% (.393)
3rd: GP(82) GS (82) Min (33.6) Pts (14.4) Ast (6.1) FG% (.416) 3P% (.333)
4th: GP(48) GS (46) Min (29.3) Pts (11.1) Ast (6.4) FG% (.376) 3P% (.341)
5th: GP(48) GS (3) Min (16.2) Pts (4.7) Ast (2.3) FG% (.337) 3P% (.336)

Jerryd Bayless (4 Teams)

1st: GP(53) GS (0) Min (12.4) Pts (4.3) Ast (1.5) FG% (.365) 3P% (.259)
2nd: GP(74) GS (11) Min (17.6) Pts (8.5) Ast (2.3) FG% (.414) 3P% (.315)
3rd: GP(71) GS (14) Min (21.1) Pts (9.2) Ast (3.7) FG% (.422) 3P% (.336)
4th: GP(31) GS (11) Min (22.7) Pts (11.4) Ast (3.8) FG% (.424) 3P% (.423)
5th: GP(51) GS (4) Min (20.2) Pts (7.1) Ast (3.4) FG% (.424) 3P% (.337)

2009:

Ricky Rubio (1 Team)

1st: Over Seas
2nd: Over Seas
3rd: GP(41) GS (31) Min (34.2) Pts (10.6) Ast (8.2) FG% (.357) 3P% (.340)
4th: GP(25) GS (15) Min (26.4) Pts (7.8) Ast (6.5) FG% (.343) 3P% (.130)

Jonny Flynn (3 Teams)

1st: GP(81) GS (81) Min (28.9) Pts (13.5) Ast (4.4) FG% (.417) 3P% (.358)
2nd: GP(53) GS (8) Min (18.3) Pts (5.3) Ast (3.4) FG% (.365) 3P% (.310)
3rd: GP(29) GS (1) Min (14.3) Pts (4.5) Ast (3.3) FG% (.351) 3P% (.294)
4th: Out of League

Stephen Curry (1 Team)

1st: GP(80) GS (77) Min (36.2) Pts (17.5) Ast (5.9) FG% (.462) 3P% (.437)
2nd: GP(74) GS (74) Min (33.6) Pts (18.6) Ast (5.8) FG% (.480) 3P% (.442)
3rd: GP(26) GS (23) Min (28.2) Pts (14.7) Ast (5.3) FG% (.490) 3P% (.455)
4th: GP(48) GS (48) Min (37.5) Pts (21.0) Ast (6.6) FG% (.434) 3P% (.447)

Brandon Jennings (1 Team)

1st: GP(82) GS (82) Min (32.6) Pts (15.5) Ast (5.7) FG% (.371) 3P% (.374)
2nd: GP(63) GS (61) Min (34.4) Pts (16.2) Ast (4.8) FG% (.390) 3P% (.323)
3rd: GP(66) GS (66) Min (35.3) Pts (19.1) Ast (5.5) FG% (.418) 3P% (.332)
4th: GP(51) GS (51) Min (37.1) Pts (18.5) Ast (6.1) FG% (.395) 3P% (.364)

2010:

John Wall

1st: GP(69) GS (64) Min (37.8) Pts (16.4) Ast (8.3) FG% (.409) 3P% (.296)
2nd: GP(66) GS (66) Min (36.2) Pts (16.3) Ast (8.0) FG% (.423) 3P% (.071)
3rd: GP(18) GS (11) Min (28.8) Pts (14.7) Ast (7.3) FG% (.428) 3P% (.077)

2011:

Kyrie Irving

1st: GP(51) GS (51) Min (30.5) Pts (18.5) Ast (6.4) FG% (.469) 3P% (.399)
2nd: GP(42) GS (42) Min (35.3) Pts (23.5) Ast (5.5) FG% (.466) 3P% (.425)

Brandon Knight

1st: GP(66) GS (60) Min (32.3) Pts (12.8) Ast (3.8) FG% (.415) 3P% (.380)
2nd: GP(54) GS (54) Min (31.5) Pts (13.5) Ast (4.3) FG% (.404) 3P% (.354)


Kemba Walker

1st: GP(66) GS (25) Min (27.2) Pts (12.1) Ast (4.4) FG% (.366) 3P% (.305)
2nd: GP(52) GS (52) Min (34.5) Pts (17.2) Ast (5.6) FG% (.425) 3P% (.340)

[jaredtyshaf]

From the list above you could break it down into 4 categories.

Stars:

Derrick Rose
Russell Westbrook
Stephen Curry
Kyrie Irving

Quality Starter:

Mike Conley
Brandon Jennings
Ricky Rubio (Could Be Star Eventually)
John Wall
Brandon Knight
Kemba Walker

Role Player:

DJ Augustin
Jerryd Bayless

Bust:

Acie Law
Jonny Flynn