Reggie Rose rips Bulls' inactivity

[Mech Engineer]

I think the idea that Reggie Rose made this comments at the wrong time can be interpreted both ways. Was there a better time than now? This season looks lost with Rose's rust, the super teams, lack of offense on the Bulls. If there is anytime to say it, it is now. If he had said that during the off-season, it doesn't have the same impact as it has now.
And, maybe Reggie/Derrick wanted to give time until the deadline to see if GarPax can do anything before they go off. And, it gives time for GarPax to do something on draft day if they want to!

If Derrick wanted to get his point across but still not act like Howard(complaining every day), he probably chose the right moment to do it. I think it is not so black and white about how GarPax/Jerry are working on this team. I am sure they want to build a winner, spend money for the right talent and have great plans and all that.

But, it is painfully obvious that GarPax have struggled to get a big time star player in FA or trade for various reasons. The fact that Paxson's teams have needed two types of players in his tenure to become more successful and move up another notch, he has failed on both occasions which shows there is something wrong:
1. To get a back to the basket player after Brand was traded. Paxson failed several times on this.
2. After Rose got going and Gordon left, they haven't found a second wing player(who is not a superstar) who can score/create off the dribble to help out Rose.

So, it is more than just money, IMO. It is a combination of risk-taking, talent evaluation(I know they draft well) of the most important need, money and just moving away from the status-quo. I thought Gar Forman will be better equipped to do this but either he is a puppet of Pax or he is being over-ridden or he doesn't get it either.

It almost feels like the Bulls FO want to build a Walmart kind of team(most value for money) rather than a Nordstrom team(where you sometimes pay more just for brand name).

[hammel123]

Haven't read any of this thread. Not one page.

Honestly, I'm surprised to see how big this thread got.

Yeah, I really can't believe this thread has taken on 70+ pages in roughly ten hours.

Well then, you are blind to the most pressing issues facing the franchise i.e at first glance mismanagement but really a careful strategy by the FO to maximize profit at the expense of winning. And now the team's most important player finally calling out the organization (through his rep) and confirming what a lot of the fans already suspected.

[HomoSapien]

If you couldn't read between the lines in Reggie's statement, then I don't know what to tell you. It's a major slap in the face to be told that your team isn't good enough to amount to the thing that they have been fighting really hard for.

I mean...agree to disagree. It's pretty silly to think the team doesn't realize that what Reggie is saying is nothing but absolute truth. I'm pretty sure they know deep down they can't beat Miami in the playoffs. Doesn't mean they aren't going to fight as hard as they can...but they know the reality, they aren't stupid.

They couldn't last time with homecourt...which they wouldn't have this time. We are less talented....we have less size, less shooting...a less healthy Derrick, a Heat team with 1.5 seasons + additional chemistry and much worse...an even better Lebron.

I fail to see the major slap in the face being told you can't be Miami in a 7 game series.

I mean, if that's what they think then what's the point of playing as hard as they do?

The Mavericks beat the Heat. The Mavericks weren't more talented than the Heat.

[WinCity]

The assumption or deduction that Reggie Rose is speaking on behalf of Derrick is really poorly supported. Although I think it's quite possible Derrick feels that way privately. But I don't think Derrick wanted something like this made public because it doesn't make him look good, and it doesn't do much for anybody frankly.


I think this is Reggie sounding off on his own personal frustrations.

THANK YOU. If people won't listen to me say it, hopefully they listen to a retired mod!

I've edited both quoted posts, so if I'm altering both of your intent say so. But lets talk about this notion as Reg, rogue. Timeline:

Months before Rose's health and ability to return are knowable, Bucher reports that Rose's camp will hold out Rose, even if healthy enough to play, because the FO made moves or didn't make moves that bars title contention and that's all that matters to Rose. We laugh at and condemn Bucher for the report.

Bucher keeps reporting it.

Rose's teammates glow about how healthy and ready he is, many weeks ago.

Afterwards, Rose gives a planned interview to a national outlet, without the knowledge of the FO, that he might not play at all this season, and that he's totally okay with it if he doesn't.

This is weeks before the trade deadline.

Minutes after the trade deadline passes, Reg makes public statements entirely consistent with the Bucher reports and Derrick's own statements about not playing this year. Threatening that Rose might sit out the season because the team isn't good enough.

And despite this, the notion that Rose isn't on board and involved with how this played out is poorly supported. Explain that. Explain why that chronology invalidates this supposition or undercuts the rationale.

I would love nothing more than to be reassured that I am an idiot. My wife has been telling me that for years, but I remain unconvinced.

Excellent outline and this is precisely why I think the Rose's planned this, or at the very least this represents Derricks genuine views even if he didn't ask Reggie to come out and say this.

[GetBuLLish]

Well then, you are blind to the most pressing issues facing the franchise i.e at first glance mismanagement but really a careful strategy by the FO to maximize profit at the expense of winning. And now the team's most important player finally calling out the organization (through his rep) and confirming what a lot of the fans already suspected.

Good post. And it really brings up a big picture theme. Bulls fans constantly ask why superstars don't come here. Well, I think the current situation is perfectly providing the answer to that.

[Wingy]

If you couldn't read between the lines in Reggie's statement, then I don't know what to tell you. It's a major slap in the face to be told that your team isn't good enough to amount to the thing that they have been fighting really hard for.

I mean...agree to disagree. It's pretty silly to think the team doesn't realize that what Reggie is saying is nothing but absolute truth. I'm pretty sure they know deep down they can't beat Miami in the playoffs. Doesn't mean they aren't going to fight as hard as they can...but they know the reality, they aren't stupid.

They couldn't last time with homecourt...which they wouldn't have this time. We are less talented....we have less size, less shooting...a less healthy Derrick, a Heat team with 1.5 seasons + additional chemistry and much worse...an even better Lebron.

I fail to see the major slap in the face being told you can't be Miami in a 7 game series.

I mean, if that's what they think then what's the point of playing as hard as they do?

The Mavericks beat the Heat. The Mavericks weren't more talented than the Heat.

Myself and many others could crush this Mavericks argument, but I agreed to disagree and I'll leave it at that.

[Wingy]

Well then, you are blind to the most pressing issues facing the franchise i.e at first glance mismanagement but really a careful strategy by the FO to maximize profit at the expense of winning. And now the team's most important player finally calling out the organization (through his rep) and confirming what a lot of the fans already suspected.

Good post. And it really brings up a big picture theme. Bulls fans constantly ask why superstars don't come here. Well, I think the current situation is perfectly providing the answer to that.

We look small market because we act small market.

[League Circles]

I've edited both quoted posts, so if I'm altering both of your intent say so. But lets talk about this notion as Reg, rogue. Timeline:

Months before Rose's health and ability to return, Bucher reports that Rose's camp will hold out Rose, even if healthy enough to play, because the FO made moves or didn't make moves that bars title contention and that's all that matters to Rose. We laugh at and condemn Bucher for the report.

I wasn't aware of any such reports, but if DERRICK Rose was ever on board with that, he sure did a piss poor job of following through with it, because he's been trying as hard as he could to come back. But let's say for a moment that Reggie, the old man, did believe that he and the "camp" could hold out Derrick.

Bucher keeps reporting it.

I haven't listened to everything he's written or said, but any time I heard him, he said Derrick might not come back because Derrick and his camp know he and Thibbs and the Bulls can only play all out-100%, that it requires so much effort (partially because of the offensive talent deficit, but mostly because of Rose and Thibbs' playing style). I never heard him say that he'd be held out because the Bulls didn't make certain moves.

Rose's teammates glow about how healthy and ready he is, many weeks ago.

I haven't read a single teammate comment that Rose is ready, let alone one weeks ago.

Afterwards, Rose gives a planned interview to a national outlet, without the knowledge of the FO, that he might not play at all this season, and that he's totally okay with it if he doesn't.

Which has always been the standard company line. When reporters beg for updates, it's hard not to sound optimisitic, and Derrick and the Bulls have always been optimisitc that he'd return this year, but have never treated it as an inevitability. The statement has always been 8-12 months. We're at 9 months.

This is weeks before the trade deadline.

8 days, just for the record.

Minutes after the trade deadline passes, Reg makes public statements entirely consistent with the Bucher reports and Derrick's own statements about not playing this year.

Derrick said he could be back in DAYS in the USA today interview. In allowing for the possibility he wouldn't return, he was just trying to be objective about his rehab and not rush to a pre-determined return date.

Threatening that Rose might sit out the season because the team isn't good enough.

You might want to read Reggie's quotes again. He didn't say that. The writer alluded to that, but suspiciously quoted only TWO WORDS about that from Reggie, saying it would be a "big factor". Funny, because he included his full quotes in less important, and obvious statements, that the Bulls need to improve outside of Rose, Noah and Deng, which we all believe they do. Hell, Paxson has said that for the last two years, and he didn't even include Deng!

And despite this, the notion that Rose isn't on board and involved with how this played out is poorly supported. Explain that. Explain why that chronology invalidates this supposition or undercuts the rationale.

I'm not saying Derrick isn't in agreement, but there is more evidence to indicate he's not, than there is evidence to indicate he is. Derrick clearly being close to playing kinda makes Reggie look like he lost an attempt to control his 14 year younger brother, which has been his #1 hobby in his adult life. Rose said after the USA today interview that he, BJ, Gar and Pax will decide when he returns. Notice he didn't include his "manager" Reggie, or even mention his family. FWIW, Derrick's most important family is now his young child. reggie will probably further fade into less of an influence on Rose.

I would love nothing more than to be reassured that I am an idiot. My wife has been telling me that for years, but I remain unconvinced.

You're not. You're really smart. But you can't be right 100% of the time. I thought Reece Gaines, Mardy Collins, and Michael Sweetney would be great players.

[HomoSapien]

I think the idea that Reggie Rose made this comments at the wrong time can be interpreted both ways. Was there a better time than now? This season looks lost with Rose's rust, the super teams, lack of offense on the Bulls. If there is anytime to say it, it is now.

I just don't agree. How is saying it when there is nothing that can be done a good time? How is saying it right before you're possibly going to rejoin the team a good time?

If he had said that during the off-season, it doesn't have the same impact as it has now.

I don't agree here either. What impact does it have now, besides just cast a negative shadow over things? If you say it to start the season, then the pressure is on management to do something by the deadline or on the players to really step up.

And, maybe Reggie/Derrick wanted to give time until the deadline to see if GarPax can do anything before they go off. And, it gives time for GarPax to do something on draft day if they want to!

The only thing the Bulls were rumored to do was dump Hamilton. There was never any chance that the Bulls were going to pull off a big trade. Rose should have known that. He should have put pressure on the Bulls a few weeks before the deadline with his comments, if he was going to make them at all.

It almost feels like the Bulls FO want to build a Walmart kind of team(most value for money) rather than a Nordstrom team(where you sometimes pay more just for brand name).

This I agree with. We operate closer to a small market team.

[DuckIII]

Excellent outline and this is precisely why I think the Rose's planned this, or at the very least this represents Derricks genuine views even if he didn't ask Reggie to come out and say this.

And this thing on which you and I agree is the foundation of virtually every post I've written in this thread. The difference being on whether or not we agree that it should have been presented by his camp today, or in season at all. I believe the argument in favor of the timing disregards the teammate aspect of team sports, and focusses solely on Rose and the FO. And that isn't my gripe or concern.

[Shill]

Maybe I'm just super jaded and cynical, but I'm surprised that people are so bent out of shape over this (though I shouldn't be, considering Black Jesus fomented thousands of pages of nothingness).

I don't believe Derrick is pulling Reggie's strings. Reggie was probably frustrated by the lack of moves (especially on the heels of blowing up the Bench Mob), and he let his emotions spill over. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he made these comments totally independent of Derrick. He's the protective big brother. He probably thinks he's being helpful, or perhaps he's not thinking at all and he got caught up in the moment.

Even if Derrick is in lockstep with his brother's views, it doesn't move the needle much for me. However, it is a bit hard for me to believe considering Derrick totally blamed himself for the playoff loss to Miami in 2011. He went into a Dark Knight Rises stupor for weeks, braiding his hobo beard and subsisting off gummy bears and capri suns. Then the next year he tears his ACL when his team was the #1 seed.

And now he thinks his teammates are bums?

Sorry. Doesn't quite jibe with me.

Either way, this doesn't concern me much. The bottom line is we need to improve the roster. That's no secret. It won't be easy, but we have valuable assets.

[GetBuLLish]

By the way, for all the talk about how Reggie destroyed Rose's image, this story isn't even a headline on ESPN.com right now.

If and when Rose comes back, this whole thing will be completely forgotten.

And also, for the people complaining about timing, I think you're just trying to find a way to complain. If he complained after the season, people would criticize him for being a sore loser for pinning the Bulls playoff loss (assuming a loss) on the FO and not himself. If he complained before the trade deadline, people would probably say, "Why would you publicly complain before the deadline?! You just gave away the FOs leverage in trade talks if other teams know you're asking for more help." And he couldn't really complain publicly in the offseason since he probably wanted to give the FO time to get things done.

In other words, people would have complained whenever he said it.

[bearadonisdna]

If Derrick is healthy enough to play, then he should play. Not this wait for the perfect situation crap. I kinda believe Reggie spoke Derricks words. He is his manager for crying out loud. On what authority would he have to speak that way? Derrick is his boss.

It like some guys secretary tells you how much her boss hates the company but then we believe its only his secretarys opinion.

[waffle]

to me, the worst part of the whole thing is the painful realization that mr. Rose might not be the gamer that other players are. He can be BOTH a gamer AND have reservations about what the team is doing, but to have those reservations and then PUBLICLY STATE that you might not be as driven to come back because of those reservations? Exactly why shouldn't we as fans be pissed?

[League Circles]

It's VERY common for pro athletes to have family members who vocally try to influence the athlete to serve their self interests. Reggie isn't teammates with RIP, Boozer, Taj, etc. Derrick is. Reggie doesn't care about the teammates like Derrick does.

For example, IMO Melo would have been likely to come here, and serve HIS interests (by playing for the better Bulls), but because La La or whatever the **** her name is wanted NY, she lobbied him to push harder for NY. This is just one story among many, but honest athletes, especially after they retire, are often more open about how the "entourage" is more about protecting THEIR interests than the players, who they feel will be OK no matter what.

IIRC, Maverick Carter and Lebron's 'camp" wanted him to stay in Cleveland where they had free run of the place. But, Lebron ultimately chose the Heat where his entourage isn't welcome in the same way.

Derrick is in a tough spot. I think it's really unfair to him to treat Reggie's comments like they came from Rose's mouth. I'm not claiming Reggie spoke against Derrick's will or orders, just guessing that Derrick probably didn't want or like those comments from Reggie, but Reggie has, for what little we know, spent his entire life trying to control Derrick.

[DuckIII]

It like some guys secretary tells you how much her boss hates the company but then we believe its only his secretarys opinion.

I am nearly inclined to sig that level of perception. But my current sig, particularly today, makes me want to continue to honor the actual team. You know, those guys playing.

[HINrichPolice]

I've edited both quoted posts, so if I'm altering both of your intent say so. But lets talk about this notion as Reg, rogue. Timeline:

Months before Rose's health and ability to return are knowable, Bucher reports that Rose's camp will hold out Rose, even if healthy enough to play, because the FO made moves or didn't make moves that bars title contention and that's all that matters to Rose. We laugh at and condemn Bucher for the report.

Bucher keeps reporting it.

Rose's teammates glow about how healthy and ready he is, many weeks ago.

Afterwards, Rose gives a planned interview to a national outlet, without the knowledge of the FO, that he might not play at all this season, and that he's totally okay with it if he doesn't.

This is weeks before the trade deadline.

Minutes after the trade deadline passes, Reg makes public statements entirely consistent with the Bucher reports and Derrick's own statements about not playing this year. Threatening that Rose might sit out the season because the team isn't good enough.

And despite this, the notion that Rose isn't on board and involved with how this played out is poorly supported. Explain that. Explain why that chronology invalidates this supposition or undercuts the rationale.

I would love nothing more than to be reassured that I am an idiot. My wife has been telling me that for years, but I remain unconvinced.

It's pretty simple, Duck.

What about Derrick's personality is consistent with the view of Derrick having the same attitude as Reggie?

I'll tell you what. Nothing, except for the fact that Rose is as coachable as they come.

Derrick's personality is certainly not the type to let his teammates hang out to dry, to find something other than winning to drive his actions (i.e. money, being selfish/putting himself first, ect). However, he can be coached to think that because another pillar of his personality is being coachable. He respects his brother. He respects BJ Armstrong. He also respects Thibs and Paxson too.

But once you unearth the fibers that make Derrick who he is, he's someone that "just wants to weeee'un." And Reggie's stance on this situation simply doesn't vibe with it. That isn't to say that Rose can't be coached into playing along with it, but at the same time, that also doesn't mean his core values will change.

So I ask you and everyone else, why isn't Derrick being given the benefit of the doubt? We know his personality. None of this vibes with his personality other than the aforementioned "coachability".

[League Circles]

It like some guys secretary tells you how much her boss hates the company but then we believe its only his secretarys opinion.

I am nearly inclined to sig that level of perception.

Horrible analogy. The secretary (Reggie) didn't say the boss (Derrick) hated the company, in fact he specifically said he doesn't speak for the boss. Secretaries often think they are relevant and some sort of behind the scenes power source. But at the end of the day, the boss is the boss, and nobody gives a **** what the secretary thinks or says.

[waffle]

but he has said "I might not come back" and then Reggie provides more depth to that comment (which I very much believe was not him talking off the cuff). It's disheartening.

[DuckIII]

Do we know his personality, HP? I hope I do. But I thought I knew it, rather than hope it.