Let's Review KOC's draft decisions

[Inigo Montoya]

i'm not a coach because apparently i'm not qualified. i pay my taxes.

[StocktonShorts]

Thank you, Neon Black. I fully agree.

It is easy to sit here and second guess, hindsight is 20/20 but I guess that is the role of the fan. KOC missed on Tony Parker but so did every other team in the league.

Sure, but the Jazz also missed on 3 other guys in that same range who are still playing in the NBA.

I guarantee it isn't as easy as you make it sound and there is no way that you could do better.

Did anyone here claim they personally could do better? Don't be ridiculous. This list was designed to compare the Jazz under KOC to other NBA scouts and GMS.

I'd be willing to bet other teams would be worse.

Sure. But is that all we expect from the Jazz? To not be the worst team in the league? As long as there's someone else worse than us, we're okay?

I like to think that we all want this franchise to be excellent, and for this franchise -- more than most -- the draft is critical to achieving excellence.

Have the Jazz been excellent in the draft?

[pickIBL]

Paul George is a real nice talent... and I liked him back in college when everyone was screaming bust. I wouldn't beat up the FO too much for taking Haywood though. He is panning out.

George is a significant upgrade on the defensive side of the basketball... and that is pretty obvious to any non-biased observer. He deserved the all-star spot... and he stepped up sans Granger to get it done in the East for the Pacers. Kudos to him... right now he is the superior talent.

But to think you can put Derrick Williams at the 3 and Haywood at the 2... I see a serious problem with the lineup defensively. That's the one reason the trade idea isn't a perfect idea for me. I'd like it more if it was someone like Klay Thompson @ the 2.

[Neon Black]

As for KOC, people can be too critical of Gm's your correct but they can also be too critical on coaches too. So you could say the same thing to both groups, "If you know so much about coaching or being a GM then why aren't you a coach or a GM?" Then again this is a basketball forum so not much else to do except argue and complain so ...

Not sure when I said any of that. You can criticize and put forth your opinion all you want. I certainly don't agree with everything KOC or Corbin have done. At the same time my opinion is that we're much better off with our management than most other teams are with theirs. I've watched the exact same people whine about the Jazz not making big enough trades, then complaining when they do make big trades, then go back to whining about not making drastic trades in a few months. The same people who were huge Morris Almond fans and called for Jerry Sloan's head because he never got any minutes are now criticizing O'Connor for drafting him.

I never said you don't have the right to criticize or complain, I'm simply putting forth the opposite opinion the KOC is actually a pretty good GM, and I'm validating my points.

[hoops4life]

Raul Lopez was an unfortunate pick. It is a shame that KOC couldn't have foreseen the injuries that would fall upon Lopez. I think that he would've been pretty good if he would've stayed healthy, not Paker good but good.

Winglish on the first page said that he has believed for years that he could do a better job.

I have believed for many years that I could do a better job of scouting than what the Jazz scouts are doing on their first round picks. KOC has been solid with trades, however, so I have to give credit where it is due. Many teams' fans would kill to have KOC in their front office. Now let's see what Dennis Lindsey can do.

Yep... that is totally what I meant when I said that... As long as we aren't the worst team in the league, I am totally happy.

The link that Neon provided shows that drafting might not be as critical as you would think. Only 3 of the top 10 teams have won a championship (Lakes, Spurs, and Celtics).

I don't think that they have been excellent. I would love for them to be excellent. I am happy in the top third of the league and would be thrilled at top 5 in the league.

I guess nothing short of perfection is acceptable.

[StocktonShorts]

At the same time my opinion is that we're much better off with our management than most other teams are with theirs.

Again there's this mentality that "hey, it could be worse!" that I really have a hard time accepting. Apparently I set the bar higher for this franchise than many of you.

I'm simply putting forth the opposite opinion the KOC is actually a pretty good GM, and I'm validating my points.

I didn't make this thread to judge KOC's overall track record as a GM; I specifically wanted to limit it to analyzing the Jazz's first-round draft record under his tenure.

[StocktonShorts]

The link that Neon provided shows that drafting might not be as critical as you would think. Only 3 of the top 10 teams have won a championship (Lakes, Spurs, and Celtics).

As I already stated, I think the draft is critical to this franchise. We're not going to assemble a Miami Heat-esque super-team through free agency any time soon.

I don't think that they have been excellent. I would love for them to be excellent. I am happy in the top third of the league and would be thrilled at top 5 in the league.

Then this is where we differ. I also think it's what separates the Jazz under Greg Miller from the Jazz under his father.

[hoops4life]

Are you wanting them to hit a homer run every pick every year?

[StocktonShorts]

Are you wanting them to hit a homer run every pick every year?

It would've helped this franchise significantly if they hadn't picked the 4th or 5th best guy from the group so often.

[Neon Black]

Again there's this mentality that "hey, it could be worse!" that I really have a hard time accepting. Apparently I set the bar higher for this franchise than many of you.

I'm not saying that we're bad and that I'm Ok with it "because it could be worse". I'm arguing that based on production weighed against where are picks have been made, we are statistically one of the best.

I didn't make this thread to judge KOC's overall track record as a GM; I specifically wanted to limit it to analyzing the Jazz's first-round draft record under his tenure.

I wasn't even responding to you or the original thread. I was responding to people's specific attacks on KOC's track record and mindless calls for his head after reading your initial post.

[reapaman]

As for KOC, people can be too critical of Gm's your correct but they can also be too critical on coaches too. So you could say the same thing to both groups, "If you know so much about coaching or being a GM then why aren't you a coach or a GM?" Then again this is a basketball forum so not much else to do except argue and complain so ...

Not sure when I said any of that. You can criticize and put forth your opinion all you want. I certainly don't agree with everything KOC or Corbin have done. At the same time my opinion is that we're much better off with our management than most other teams are with theirs. I've watched the exact same people whine about the Jazz not making big enough trades, then complaining when they do make big trades, then go back to whining about not making drastic trades in a few months. The same people who were huge Morris Almond fans and called for Jerry Sloan's head because he never got any minutes are now criticizing O'Connor for drafting him.

I never said you don't have the right to criticize or complain, I'm simply putting forth the opposite opinion the KOC is actually a pretty good GM, and I'm validating my points.

No I was going off your point that some people acting as if they can do better than professional scouts and Gm's. And for future reference argueing and complaining is not the same as stating your opinion and debating. Sorry if I was unclear tho.

[Neon Black]

Let me qualify - there are a few posters who I feel simple complain about every decision made and flip flop like a politician without ever really backing up their arguments.

While I disagree with you sometimes, as well as stocktonshorts, I'm not grouping you into that category.

[TheStig15]

At the same time my opinion is that we're much better off with our management than most other teams are with theirs.

Again there's this mentality that "hey, it could be worse!" that I really have a hard time accepting. Apparently I set the bar higher for this franchise than many of you.

I'm simply putting forth the opposite opinion the KOC is actually a pretty good GM, and I'm validating my points.

I didn't make this thread to judge KOC's overall track record as a GM; I specifically wanted to limit it to analyzing the Jazz's first-round draft record under his tenure.

I completely agree with everything you've said.

[Ming Kong!]

Look, there are winners and losers in the draft, but it's impossible to say that had Utah drafted George and Indiana drafted Hayward that they turn out to be the same player. Perhaps the situation Indiana was the right one for George, and it have been an even better one for Hayward or worse, who knows. These scouts are fools, players like Jordan, Malone, and Stockton don't slip because of bad scouting, some players just bloom later than others, while others peak sooner than others. I'm sure Olajuwon and Bowie were the right pick for their teams at the time in the eye of many great scouts, but it just so happens that Jordan was the best of the group. More than faulting the scouts, I think it's the hard work of Jordan to become the best.

Either way, scouts can only make a decision with the information on hand, not with the power of foresight.

[StocktonShorts]

Either way, scouts can only make a decision with the information on hand, not with the power of foresight.

But some do better than others. The Jazz haven't been as terrible as, say, Sacramento, but they also haven't been as good as San Antonio or Oklahoma City.


I'm getting the feeling that some of you think a front office is completely above reproach when it comes to the draft. I just don't get that.

I believe that given a large enough sample size it's completely fair to judge a team's track record in the draft.

[Ming Kong!]

Either way, scouts can only make a decision with the information on hand, not with the power of foresight.

But some do better than others. The Jazz haven't been as terrible as, say, Sacramento, but they also haven't been as good as San Antonio or Oklahoma City.


I'm getting the feeling that some of you think a front office is completely above reproach when it comes to the draft. I just don't get that.

I believe that given a large enough sample size it's completely fair to judge a team's track record in the draft.

I think a bit of luck, in combination with player development and coaching also have a large part to do with the success of the Spurs.

Ofcourse, I would say the Spurs also have among the best scouts, but I'm saying I think it's a bit unfair to judge the GM's and scouts so hard, when there is so much that has to go right for the player to succeed at this level.

[StocktonShorts]

Of course, I would say the Spurs also have among the best scouts, but I'm saying I think it's a bit unfair to judge the GM's and scouts so hard, when there is so much that has to go right for the player to succeed at this level.

With the exception of unexpected serious injuries I think most of the factors that go into a player succeeding in the NBA can be predicted to a certain degree before he's drafted. I realize that's a bold statement, but I think it's largely born out by the track record of certain teams over a large enough sample size.

[RyanStorm]

I don't hate KOC, he just needs to make sure he has better ideas than I do. I don't think KOC can mess up that bad this year, I think it will be clear cut who we should get when its our turn(s). Assuming we know what guys who were going to keep and sign from FA and which were going to get rid of.

Best thing to happen, Lakers pass up Golden State and land GS in 9th(which will be the difference of a #20 pick and a #14). We could get someone nicer with a #14 pick.

Most Likely To Be Picked Before Our Turn:
1-Noel
2-McLemore
3-Zeller
4-Len
5-Muhammad
6-Austin
7-Bennett
8-Smart
9-Oladipo
10-Plumlee
11-Poythress
12-Porter
13-C.WIlliams
14-Olynyk
-------------------------^Lottery PIcks
15-Mitchell
16-McCollum
17-Goodwin
18-Young
------------------------^Likely picks w/Hawks and Bucks before us, everyone above here should be gone by #19
19-Burke
20-McAdoo
-----------------------^Our two picks if GS stays in 6th.

My Personal Ideal Starters w/Rotations For Next Year:
Mo - Foye - Hayward - Favors - Kanter

Burke - Burks - Carroll - McAdoo

[BigAlymphoma]

I think we have every right to bash KOC for drafting Kanter with the 3rd pick if the plan all along was to have him be a bench player.

[RyanStorm]

I think we have every right to bash KOC for drafting Kanter with the 3rd pick if the plan all along was to have him be a bench player.

I think that was also stupid, why pay Jefferson so much when you got Kanter, why do we draft guys in the top of the top yet bench them? Burks was a good pick, yet we got another pick that we don't even use?? The average team would have started them and Hayward.

I am guessing we pick another C and SG this draft, and have them sit on the bench as 3rd string.