Official Tobias Harris watch thread (The End)

[Kerb Hohl]

"It is already pretty obvious that Skiles wasn't the problem?" Why? Because we replaced him with a guy that has been his assistant for like 50 years?

We need a completely different coach with a different approach to the game. Skiles is a **** burnout. Who knows what his next job will be. I certainly don't see Boylan as head coaching material.

I don't really like Skiles as the coach, it just gets really old about how he is suffocating these stud prospects we have and how the team was supposed to be so much better without him.

I couldn't give two **** that he was fired and obviously I realize Boylan is not a great coach. Anyone who thinks any coach other than maybe Popp is going to make this team win more than 43, 44 games is out of their mind.

I think half of this board was on the "Skiles is holding us back" bandwagon. After the Boylan bubble was burst, we lost the 1/4 of the board that was like "lulz, look what happens when we get a coach other than Skiles!" Next year if this team still has the swag twins or makes equally stupid moves I'm assuming the rest of that parade will slowly fade into darkness.

[paul]

"It is already pretty obvious that Skiles wasn't the problem?" Why? Because we replaced him with a guy that has been his assistant for like 50 years?

We need a completely different coach with a different approach to the game. Skiles is a **** burnout. Who knows what his next job will be. I certainly don't see Boylan as head coaching material.

I didn't bother pointing it out again as I've said this maybe 20 times so I'm glad you did, but replacing Skiles with a less talented version of himself does not in any way shape or form absolve him.

No one, I repeat no one who wanted Skiles fired wanted him replaced with Boylan.

[Kerb Hohl]

Regardless of who made orchestrated the move I think we can all safely say the one person he's definitely going to make look stupid is Scott Skiles. Just like Larry did.

Dude, Larry Sanders was getting plenty of minutes when he eventually became a good player.

Yep, right after he spent a season and three quarters behind Drew Gooden in the rotation (and any other big with a heartbeat Skiles could find).

And look how much more successful the team is without Skiles' rotations. I would assume Skiles fades out of the spotlight because the rumors of his gambling affiliation, betting against his own team and DESTROYING it with his rotations of NBDL player A playing 2 more minutes than career benchwarmer B are going to be outed soon.

[paul]

"It is already pretty obvious that Skiles wasn't the problem?" Why? Because we replaced him with a guy that has been his assistant for like 50 years?

We need a completely different coach with a different approach to the game. Skiles is a **** burnout. Who knows what his next job will be. I certainly don't see Boylan as head coaching material.

I don't really like Skiles as the coach, it just gets really old about how he is suffocating these stud prospects we have and how the team was supposed to be so much better without him.

I couldn't give two **** that he was fired and obviously I realize Boylan is not a great coach. Anyone who thinks any coach other than maybe Popp is going to make this team win more than 43, 44 games is out of their mind.

I think half of this board was on the "Skiles is holding us back" bandwagon. After the Boylan bubble was burst, we lost the 1/4 of the board that was like "lulz, look what happens when we get a coach other than Skiles!" Next year if this team still has the swag twins or makes equally stupid moves I'm assuming the rest of that parade will slowly fade into darkness.

That's a complete strawman though, most of us who wanted Skiles fired were happy to acknowledge that we may not win a single extra game with a different coach.

W/L is absolutely not the only reason a team should part ways with a coach. Playing Marquis Daniels over Harris or Drew Gooden over Sanders however....

[Ayt]

I want a real coach. Minny got Adelman despite being terrible at the time. Why can't we find a coach who actually brings out the best in the players on his roster?

Is it too much to ask for a coach that can at least recognize how much brain damage Monta has?

[Kerb Hohl]

OK, so Skiles was a serious problem but his understudy coming in won't prove that. Who the hell is going to move the needle for you next season?

I realize that you guys hate as much about the personnel of the team as I do but I wonder who the hell we can bring off the bench that is going to make this much better. Drew Gooden doesn't play anymore and this team still blows. Skiles isn't holding Lord Bogut back anymore and his career is still falling into a wasteland.

[Kerb Hohl]

I want a real coach. Minny got Adelman despite being terrible at the time. Why can't we find a coach who actually brings out the best in the players on his roster?

I realize they have injury concerns and Adelman was gone with his sick wife, but their team still blows.

[paul]

OK, so Skiles was a serious problem but his understudy coming in won't prove that. Who the hell is going to move the needle for you next season?

I realize that you guys hate as much about the personnel of the team as I do but I wonder who the hell we can bring off the bench that is going to make this much better. Drew Gooden doesn't play anymore and this team still blows. Skiles isn't holding Lord Bogut back anymore and his career is still falling into a wasteland.

Well, we've now got a much worse version of Skiles, so that's not going to help.

No one was bringing up Skiles holding Bogut back, you're still working the strawmen.

Skiles served his purpose, but that had run it's course two years ago, anyone with their eyes open could see that. Get a freaking decent coach, seriously it's not too much to ask.

Finally I wouldn't hate the personnel nearly as much if we hadn't just traded away our most talented young guy.

[Kerb Hohl]

That's a complete strawman though, most of us who wanted Skiles fired were happy to acknowledge that we may not win a single extra game with a different coach.

W/L is absolutely not the only reason a team should part ways with a coach. Playing Marquis Daniels over Harris or Drew Gooden over Sanders however....

I'm totally for developing young players, but if you want that, I'd advise signing some coach that is coming in knowing his team is going to suck. The top NBA coaches are not on that list. Skiles was stubborn as hell and yes, his welcome was worn out, but he was supposed to win games to keep his job.

Of course, I realize Sanders is (and was) better than Gooden when Skiles was benching him but Skiles was trying to win. I totally agree that I'd like to see Harris over Marquis Daniels and that Sanders, even before he fully developed, should have played over Gooden, but the proof really isn't in the pudding. The team still sucks with Sanders playing full-time. It was relatively irrelevant and how ever dumb you want to call Skiles, he was trying to win since that is the type of coach he is with older players and he did at essentially the same (probably better soon) than some filler coach that will play the young guys.

[Kerb Hohl]

Finally I wouldn't hate the personnel nearly as much if we hadn't just traded away our most talented young guy.

If that statement is true, then this organization was effed anyways. If your "most talented young guy" has the ceiling of a decent scorer, but the realistic expectation is that he hangs around on NBA benches for 5-10 years...your organization needs a miracle.

[Ayt]

I want a real coach. Minny got Adelman despite being terrible at the time. Why can't we find a coach who actually brings out the best in the players on his roster?

I realize they have injury concerns and Adelman was gone with his sick wife, but their team still blows.

So are you arguing that Adelman isn't an elite coach? If not, what point are you making?

[paul]

That's a complete strawman though, most of us who wanted Skiles fired were happy to acknowledge that we may not win a single extra game with a different coach.

W/L is absolutely not the only reason a team should part ways with a coach. Playing Marquis Daniels over Harris or Drew Gooden over Sanders however....

I'm totally for developing young players, but if you want that, I'd advise signing some coach that is coming in knowing his team is going to suck. The top NBA coaches are not on that list. Skiles was stubborn as hell and yes, his welcome was worn out, but he was supposed to win games to keep his job.

Of course, I realize Sanders is (and was) better than Gooden when Skiles was benching him but Skiles was trying to win. I totally agree that I'd like to see Harris over Marquis Daniels and that Sanders, even before he fully developed, should have played over Gooden, but the proof really isn't in the pudding. The team still sucks with Sanders playing full-time. It was relatively irrelevant and how ever dumb you want to call Skiles, he was trying to win since that is the type of coach he is with older players and he did at essentially the same (probably better soon) than some filler coach that will play the young guys.

Nah, he was going with vets making the exact same mistakes as the rookies and doing it with no upside.

It's not even about developing kids (though that would have been the payoff), it's about playing the best options at your positions without this ridiculous bias towards vets, who again were making the exact same mistakes as the guys they were playing in front of.

Skiles played favorites and dog house in every stop of his coaching career, he had to be the alpha and he had to let every young guy on that roster (other than Jennings) know it. I don't mind if you're coaching to win, just play your best options and stop being such a douchebag. He's insane, and the longer he's in one place the greater the magnification.

[Kerb Hohl]

No one was bringing up Skiles holding Bogut back, you're still working the strawmen.

The allegation of strawman is more overused than strawman arguments themselves. I do remember a lot of complains about Skiles/Bogut, I'm not going to dig back 2-3-4 years now to find those.

Use some other literary allegations. Ad Hominem or something would be nice.

[Ayt]

Finally I wouldn't hate the personnel nearly as much if we hadn't just traded away our most talented young guy.

If that statement is true, then this organization was effed anyways. If your "most talented young guy" has the ceiling of a decent scorer, but the realistic expectation is that he hangs around on NBA benches for 5-10 years...your organization needs a miracle.

I'd say there is a much better chance he is a starter who scores in the high teens than there is that he only hangs around on benches for 5-10 years. Seriously? You think it is realistic that he might be out of the league in 5 years after hanging around on benches?

I don't know how people can be so blind to his obvious talent.

[paul]

Finally I wouldn't hate the personnel nearly as much if we hadn't just traded away our most talented young guy.

If that statement is true, then this organization was effed anyways. If your "most talented young guy" has the ceiling of a decent scorer, but the realistic expectation is that he hangs around on NBA benches for 5-10 years...your organization needs a miracle.

The statement is true, take from it what you will. I love Sanders, but he's no longer 'young' to me turning 25 this year.

[Kerb Hohl]

I want a real coach. Minny got Adelman despite being terrible at the time. Why can't we find a coach who actually brings out the best in the players on his roster?

I realize they have injury concerns and Adelman was gone with his sick wife, but their team still blows.

So are you arguing that Adelman isn't an elite coach? If not, what point are you making?

I'm arguing that seldom does a coach matter that much in the results of an NBA team.

If it's the difference between getting to the 2nd or 3rd round, getting a young team to a 7 seed instead of missing the playoffs, etc...yeah, maybe that happens sometimes. Just feel like the whole effect of coaching here is overblown.

There are a few elite ones that I do think move the needle, but they still need good players in their system.

[paul]

Finally I wouldn't hate the personnel nearly as much if we hadn't just traded away our most talented young guy.

If that statement is true, then this organization was effed anyways. If your "most talented young guy" has the ceiling of a decent scorer, but the realistic expectation is that he hangs around on NBA benches for 5-10 years...your organization needs a miracle.

I'd say there is a much better chance he is a starter who scores in the high teens than there is that he only hangs around on benches for 5-10 years. Seriously? You think it is realistic that he might be out of the league in 5 years after hanging around on benches?

I don't know how people can be so blind to his obvious talent.

Maybe Grendon should go all Wise1 on us and do the 'Mark my words Larry 'Skillet Grip' Sanders will be out of the league in 3 years' or whatever it was.

Those things always end up looking good.

[Ayt]

I realize they have injury concerns and Adelman was gone with his sick wife, but their team still blows.

So are you arguing that Adelman isn't an elite coach? If not, what point are you making?

I'm arguing that seldom does a coach matter that much in the results of an NBA team.

If it's the difference between getting to the 2nd or 3rd round, getting a young team to a 7 seed instead of missing the playoffs, etc...yeah, maybe that happens sometimes. Just feel like the whole effect of coaching here is overblown.

There are a few elite ones that I do think move the needle, but they still need good players in their system.

You clearly undervalue coaching, particularly when it comes to the cumulative effect a coach can have over several seasons if he is very good at developing talent. A better coach may have only gotten 2-3 extra wins this season, but if he's good at developing players, you can be looking at a difference of 7, 8, 9, 10+ wins 3-4 years down the line.

Skiles is an abortion when it comes to developing young players. We need the exact opposite type of coach.

McHale actually would have been great, especially with his ties to the Midwest. He was an atrocious GM, but I think he's going to be a great HC for years to come.

There has to be an assistant out there that realizes it is possible to balance winning games with developing players.

[Kerb Hohl]

Finally I wouldn't hate the personnel nearly as much if we hadn't just traded away our most talented young guy.

If that statement is true, then this organization was effed anyways. If your "most talented young guy" has the ceiling of a decent scorer, but the realistic expectation is that he hangs around on NBA benches for 5-10 years...your organization needs a miracle.

I'd say there is a much better chance he is a starter who scores in the high teens than there is that he only hangs around on benches for 5-10 years. Seriously? You think it is realistic that he might be out of the league in 5 years after hanging around on benches?

I don't know how people can be so blind to his obvious talent.

I openly admit that I don't watch the Bucks...ever. I come on here and argue a few times a week but I think if I actively followed the team I would become clinically depressed.

I don't think Harris is some massive bust and I think he could be a useful NBA player, but I don't see some really high ceiling from the circumstances yet. I don't think we should have made the trade, I have the same perspective you guys have (have for a decade at this point) that we should not be trading young players for the 8 seed, no matter their ceiling. That said, the I'm just trying to temper the overreactions. I came on to this thread to people stroking off to a bunch of open buckets when the team was getting blown out against irrelevant players, just like last year when people were arguing that he was some studly prospect. Then he got his chance and was not that impressive. He still could be a good player, but I don't see it just yet.

[Ayt]

If that statement is true, then this organization was effed anyways. If your "most talented young guy" has the ceiling of a decent scorer, but the realistic expectation is that he hangs around on NBA benches for 5-10 years...your organization needs a miracle.

I'd say there is a much better chance he is a starter who scores in the high teens than there is that he only hangs around on benches for 5-10 years. Seriously? You think it is realistic that he might be out of the league in 5 years after hanging around on benches?

I don't know how people can be so blind to his obvious talent.

I openly admit that I don't watch the Bucks...ever. I come on here and argue a few times a week but I think if I actively followed the team I would become clinically depressed.

I don't think Harris is some massive bust and I think he could be a useful NBA player, but I don't see some really high ceiling from the circumstances yet. I don't think we should have made the trade, I have the same perspective you guys have (have for a decade at this point) that we should not be trading young players for the 8 seed, no matter their ceiling. That said, the I'm just trying to temper the overreactions. I came on to this thread to people stroking off to a bunch of open buckets when the team was getting blown out against irrelevant players, just like last year when people were arguing that he was some studly prospect. Then he got his chance and was not that impressive. He still could be a good player, but I don't see it just yet.

I forgot about that. Why the hell am I arguing with you about this topic when you clearly have no frame of reference?

As for one of your points, did you not notice that people were very high on Tobes before we traded him and that basically none of the reactions have anything to do with his single performance against Cleveland? It isn't like people who liked him as a prospect while he was here will be surprised when he succeeds in Orlando. Plus, it isn't like he needed to prove anything to a lot of us. He just needs minutes. He's going to get them in Orlando and he's very likely going to flourish as a scorer. I don't think it will take him long at all.