The Billy King Thread: Beyond Brilliant or Seriously Stupid

[Pen Island]

How do you view Billy King?



or



Resume:

Draft History

2010: Derrick Favors (3) / Damion James (24) - Rod Thorn draft / Billy King signed.
2011: JaJuan Johnson (27th overall pick) and Jordan Williams (36th overall pick).
2012: Ilkan Karaman (57th overall pick)

Draft Night Transaction History
2011: Traded the draft rights to forward JaJuan Johnson and a 2014 second-round pick to the Boston Celtics for the draft rights to guard Marshon Brooks. Traded a future second-round pick and cash to the Minnesota Timberwolves for the draft rights to forward Bojan Bogdanovic.
2012: Purchased the rights to G Tyshawn Taylor

Staff History
*important to note he did NOT hire Avery Johnson.
July 19 2010: Named Sam Mitchell, Larry Krystkowiak, John Loyer, Popeye Jones and Tom Barrise assistant coaches.
July 26 2010: Named Bobby Marks assistant general manager.
September 10 2010: Named Milton Lee director of basketball operations.
September 15 2010: Named Doug Overton player development coach.
December 6 2011: Named Mario Elie and PJ Carlesimo assistant coaches.
December 27 2012: Fired head coach Avery Johnson and named PJ Carlesimo head coach.

Trade History
August 11 2010: Traded guard Courtney Lee to the Houston Rockets for forward Troy Murphy from the Indiana Pacers.
December 15 2010: Traded forward Joe Smith, a second-round pick in 2011 and a second-round pick 2012 to the Los Angeles Lakers for guard Sasha Vujacic and a protected 2011 first-round pick and a protected 2012 second-round pick from the Houston Rockets.
February 23 2011: Traded guard Devin Harris, forward Derrick Favors, two first-round picks and cash to the Utah Jazz for guard Deron Williams. Traded forward Troy Murphy and a second-round pick to the Golden State Warriors for forward Brandan Wright and center Dan Gadzuric.
December 22 2011: Traded a second-round pick and a trade exception to the Utah Jazz for center Mehmet Okur.
March 15 2012: Traded forward Shawne Williams, center Mehmet Okur and a conditional first-round pick to the Portland Trail Blazers for forward Gerald Wallace.
July 11 2012: Traded guards Jordan Farmar and DeShawn Stevenson, forwards Anthony Morrow and Jordan Williams, center Johan Petro, first-round pick in 2013, and the rights to swap first rounders in 2015 and a 2017 second-round pick to the Atlanta Hawks for Joe Johnson, signed forward Mirza Teletovic, re-signed guard Deron Williams, forward Gerald Wallace and center Brook Lopez, and acquired forward Reggie Evans from the Los Angeles Clippers for the right to swap second-round picks in 2016.

Key Players Waived
Travis Outlaw (Amnesty Provision)

Key Players Signed
Andray Blatche
Gerald Green

[Pen Island]

With Billy, his worst trade by far has been the Gerald Wallace trade. The rest are either uninspiring or franchise changing type deals. I think the theory that this team is better off with assets as opposed to Deron Williams is, as Michael Kay likes to call it, a "fallacy of the pre-determined outcome." There's no way to know if the Nets draft Lilliard or if Devin Harris sticks around or if Favors grows and develops playing for a franchise now notorious for failing to develop players.

I think Billy's most damning decision was not replacing Avery Johnson sooner, and implementing "his guys." I think a lot can be said about the disconnect between management and the coaching staff. I think that Billy prides himself on drafting well and developing talent, but there's no use in doing that if your staff refuses to develop talent. Steals like Brooks, Taylor, and even Toko are not "assets" if they don't play.

This entire franchise is a mess as far as upper management is concerned so I don't think it's fair to consider Billy's tenure epic failure. He's done some good too. We have Deron, Joe, and Lopez locked up because of Billy and also have all of our first round picks, Marshon, Taylor, Toko, and Bojan overseas. We have some flexibility to acquire one more big name guy because of the Hump contract as well.

Will I shed a tear if he's fired? No. But I am in no way going to sit here and blame Billy for our coaching staff's failure to utilize the players he has brought to Brooklyn. I think this team, as Billy has said countless times, is under-performing.

[vincecarter4pres]

We had something similar here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1223447

Of note you have some trade history wrong including the Terrence Williams part of the Rockets trade and you've omitted the unprotected pick swap options he bestowed on Atlanta as part of the Joe Johnson trade in 2014 and 2015.


Also, Key Players Waived...



I personally can't wait til this moron is canned.

[vincecarter4pres]

Also he did not draft Favors or James, that was Rod Thorn.

[Pen Island]

Also he did not draft Favors or James, that was Rod Thorn.

Technically it's credited to King because he signed them to their rookie scale deals but you're correct.

[CalamityX12]

There should also be a note in regards to the Wallace trade.

Billy King feels Wallace is better than all the lotto picks outside the top 3.... that should never be lost.

[Pen Island]

There should also be a note in regards to the Wallace trade.

Billy King feels Wallace is better than all the lotto picks outside the top 3.... that should never be lost.

I think the worst part of the Wallace trade isn't the loss of a prospect, it's the lost of an asset. No matter who we drafted (had we decided to keep the pick) Avery would not have played the player. Every NBA rookie outside of Anthony Davis and Bradley Beal (our top 2 choices on the draft board) were severely flawed (as normal for a prospect). T-Rob? Can't rebound or defend. Damion Lilliard? Poor on the perimeter, bad jump shooter, and poor passer with high turnover marks to go along with questionable defense. MKG? Aggressive and foul prone with no offensive game (who am I kidding MKG probably sees time under these two bafoons).

Outside of Davis and Beal there are no prospects in last year's draft who would have helped a win-now championship team. I'm fine with trading the pick. But for Crash? I feel that Billy could have gotten a ton more value for that pick than just Crash. Imagine if, let's say, he had traded that pick for a future first and had it this year for Josh or Paul? Or maybe kept the pick, tanked hard, and acquired Davis/Beal?

The decision to undervalue anyone below 3 isn't what I'm questioning. Everyone had that draft as poor and I still believe over the grand scheme of things it will be considered at best an average draft. People love DL but he's been pretty average since his hot start.

[vincecarter4pres]

There should also be a note in regards to the Wallace trade.

Billy King feels Wallace is better than all the lotto picks outside the top 3.... that should never be lost.

Kiiinnnnnggggggg!!!!

[vincecarter4pres]

The decision to undervalue anyone below 3 isn't what I'm questioning. Everyone had that draft as poor and I still believe over the grand scheme of things it will be considered at best an average draft. People love DL but he's been pretty average since his hot start.

See this is where you're still stuck in that NetsDaily believe what they feed me fantasy land.

This draft was never considered weak. Actually it was considered extremely strong, just lacking many if any franchise player level prospects outside of PEB.

I distinctly remember after that one article came out that NetsDaily used as their headline piece of "GM says this is weakest draft in past decade" (closely paraphrased), all of a sudden 85% of NetsDaily posters were parroting, "This draft is soooooo weak!".

You want to know the truth? This draft was being called incredibly strong for the longest, a lot to do with the lockout and kids that didn't declare that were thrown into it meaning talent fell. Meaning more players to pick from in the top 15 or so picks who would have unanimously went top 5 most other years if simply not by default because the pool was so much deeper and thus stronger because of it.

You want to know the truth? Every. Single. Year. Around May an article comes out with a GM calling this the weakest draft in the last decade, or better yet, the weakest of all time. Or the famous, "Weakest draft since 2000!" Same thing was said right at the end in 09 around May and that's turning out to be a spectacular draft, which many of us in the know who take scouting seriously called the whole year. And that 09 draft again, it wasn't said to be so weak all year, just a little weaker then normal. It was said to be a draft with one or 2 likely franchise guys and a ton of often All Stars and great role players and it's starting to live up to that lofty hype and we're still far from done with it. It was only given that "weakest since" label in May by one or two GM's trying to cause a stir. From what went down trade wise, probably Kahn being the main culprit.

You want to know the truth? When a draft is going to be weak, it's usually talked about being terrible all year leading up to it. The summer before even. Like this current looming draft. What doesn't happen is it's called a great draft the whole year and suddenly one article comes out tearing it to shreds and then it's deemed that one article and one GM was correct.

Lastly, although I don't think Lillard is a franchise guy, you're doing him something of a disservice by discrediting the very good rookie year he's having and trying to judge the guy's career projection concretely off this year by simple stats when he's shown a ton of ability and diversity to his game and has a good head on his shoulders with a great base of athleticism, prototypical measures and skill set to build upon.

[vincecarter4pres]

Pens, you want to hear something really funny?

I was torn to shreds by NI for a Fan Post I made on ND talking about it was a mortal lock we traded our pick no matter what pick it was on draft night for an established star last year about a month before the deadline.

NI was telling me how arrogant I was to suggest it as near fact, even though I said over and over it was obviously my opinion, just an educated guess with proper reason.

He kept telling me nothing we've seen from our FO regime would suggest King and Marks would definitely trade the pick and how they talked up the draft and what a great draft it was.

Then the Wallace trade happened and then bang, they started with the company spin of what a weak draft this was anyway and a bunch of his venomous posts and baits towards me and other who agreed with my Fan Post starting miraculously being deleted from comments section of said Fan Post.

[Pen Island]

See this is where you're still stuck in that NetsDaily believe what they feed me fantasy land.

This draft was never considered weak. Actually it was considered extremely strong, just lacking many if any franchise player level prospects outside of PEB.

I distinctly remember after that one article came out that NetsDaily used as their headline piece of "GM says this is weakest draft in past decade" (closely paraphrased), all of a sudden 85% of NetsDaily posters were parroting, "This draft is soooooo weak!".

I honestly don't parrot. I can't speak for anyone else but I made that determination on my own, reading scouting reports and news articles every morning before work, and browsing the internet at night after work. I was wholly unimpressed with the draft class outside of Davis and Beal and I still am. Are there projects that might turn into an all-star down the line? Sure. There are those in every draft. But the lack of immediate impact prospects rendered this draft "weak" in Brooklyn's eyes and fittingly so.

Where Brooklyn failed was to analyze how strong this draft could appear to a team like the Bobcats. A team who might have the time to develop a project. The general consensus around the league, among scouting websites and former and current GMs, was that this past draft was weak as far as immediate, impact talent. Especially weak in comparison to the prior 2 drafts and I agree with that assessment.

You want to know the truth? This draft was being called incredibly strong for the longest, a lot to do with the lockout and kids that didn't declare that were thrown into it meaning talent fell. Meaning more players to pick from in the top 15 or so picks who would have unanimously went top 5 most other years if simply not by default because the pool was so much deeper and thus stronger because of it.

Barnes, Jonas, Sulli, Miller, Rivers, Davis, MKG, Teague and Macadoo were rumored to declare. Most did. That's your high-end talent. DL didn't establish himself until much later. As did Beal. There was no one else of note. Tyshawn Taylor was rumored to go as high as 18 on some draft boards. After the lottery it was a crapshoot.

Who else is a significant, high potential acquisition there? Rivers, MKG, Teague, Jonas and Barnes are all projects. i stand by my assessment.

Lastly, although I don't think Lillard is a franchise guy, you're doing him something of a disservice by discrediting the very good rookie year he's having and trying to judge the guy's career projection concretely off this year by simple stats when he's shown a ton of ability and diversity to his game and has a good head on his shoulders with a great base of athleticism, prototypical measures and skill set to build upon.

Lillard is projectable. I'm not saying he's not going to be a good player. But people are making it seem like he's this high impact player. When Billy King said there's no impact player outside the top 6, he was right. His scouts who spent hours, days, weeks, months doing there jobs were right.

Lillard on the Nets would be awful. Not because of Lillard but because he makes so many rookie mistakes that he probably gets buried on our bench and is never developed.

I am against the trade because of the loss of the asset (and the failed tank job) NOT because of some misguided assessment of Lillard's talent. Some people sincerely believe we'd be better off with Lillard than Deron. I'm convinced they've never watched Lillard play.

[Pen Island]

Pens, you want to hear something really funny?

I was torn to shreds by NI for a Fan Post I made on ND talking about it was a mortal lock we traded our pick no matter what pick it was on draft night for an established star last year about a month before the deadline.

NI was telling me how arrogant I was to suggest it as near fact, even though I said over and over it was obviously my opinion, just an educated guess with proper reason.

He kept telling me nothing we've seen from our FO regime would suggest King and Marks would definitely trade the pick and how they talked up the draft and what a great draft it was.

Then the Wallace trade happened and then bang, they started with the company spin of what a weak draft this was anyway and a bunch of his venomous posts and baits towards me and other who agreed with my Fan Post starting miraculously being deleted from comments section of said Fan Post.

Nothing surprises me with NetsDaily anymore. And that's a damn shame.

[CalamityX12]

that whole weak nonsense was to cover Billy's ass in the trade for Wallace.... read between the lines. The idiot got hosed and as some sort of true compensation for our horrific season(again) we get not a cheap young talent but an older and expensive player that sits on the bench with his fellow all star center...

LOL man we suck ......

and for ALLLLLLL those D12 getters, what if we held on to that pick, turned it into a top 3 lock... all of sudden Orlando listens.... nothing went right here lol....

we should've signed Korver!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pen Island]

that whole weak nonsense was to cover Billy's ass in the trade for Wallace.... read between the lines. The idiot got hosed and as some sort of true compensation for our horrific season(again) we get not a cheap young talent but an older and expensive player that sits on the bench with his fellow all star center...

I don't think that the publicizing of numerous opinions from numerous scouts from different organizations and news outlets was to cover Billy. I still agree the trade is absolutely awful. I think he got hosed. I think without Wallace we tank our way to the top pick. This is what frustrates me more than anything.

No one is denying that he got hosed.

The discussion is whether or not he valued the pick correctly for this team. And I think he did. However that doesn't mean you gift the pick. Other teams, rebuilding teams, would have given a lot better value than Portland.

LOL man we suck ......

and for ALLLLLLL those D12 getters, what if we held on to that pick, turned it into a top 3 lock... all of sudden Orlando listens.... nothing went right here lol....

we should've signed Korver!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wasn't it said that Orlando was never set on trading it here?

[vincecarter4pres]

Pens, you want to hear something really funny?

I was torn to shreds by NI for a Fan Post I made on ND talking about it was a mortal lock we traded our pick no matter what pick it was on draft night for an established star last year about a month before the deadline.

NI was telling me how arrogant I was to suggest it as near fact, even though I said over and over it was obviously my opinion, just an educated guess with proper reason.

He kept telling me nothing we've seen from our FO regime would suggest King and Marks would definitely trade the pick and how they talked up the draft and what a great draft it was.

Then the Wallace trade happened and then bang, they started with the company spin of what a weak draft this was anyway and a bunch of his venomous posts and baits towards me and other who agreed with my Fan Post starting miraculously being deleted from comments section of said Fan Post.

Nothing surprises me with NetsDaily anymore. And that's a damn shame.

http://www.netsdaily.com/2012/3/20/2886 ... -bobby-can

This was the post. Two things of note:

1. On Anthony Davis I called him Camby with a face up game as his floor even though I hated that comparison because in the previous months I was catching a ton of flack for saying the Camby comparison wasn't a very good one and didn't want the thread to deteriorate into a discussion on that.

2. Same thing with Harden. I had been pretty hard on about the fact I thought strongly OKC would deal him if they couldn't get an extension done, but I received a lot of resistance to that in the months prior to that Fan Post and so only gave him a brief mention at the end.

ND is a different animal then here, it's better to avoid some mentions because it derails the entire topic of conversation in the thread.

[CalamityX12]

Wasn't it said that Orlando was never set on trading it here?

At the time probably. After seasons end and if that pick turned into the #1 or top 3, i'm sure Orlando would've been singing a different tune... unless they view Affalo > than a top 3 pick lol... ohh them Magic boys...

[Pen Island]

Wasn't it said that Orlando was never set on trading it here?

At the time probably. After seasons end and if that pick turned into the #1 or top 3, i'm sure Orlando would've been singing a different tune... unless they view Affalo > than a top 3 pick lol... ohh them Magic boys...

Oh I agree completely.

[VCRJKidd15]

He's done a good enough job for me. Outside of contracts he assembled a great team it isn't Billy's fault that Gerald sucks ass and Joe Johnson finds the most random days to have his shot go in. Trade for Wallace was dumb but then again it doesn't bother me yet until the suppose rookie the Nets were going to draft does incredible and I know for sure it wouldn't have been Lillard(Who has been amazing this year offensively but meh at everything else as a fantasy owner of his he sometimes pisses me off).

Even if the Nets had that pick I still believe Orlando would have traded Howard to the West it just makes more sense for them to do that I don't blame them for doing what they did. Howard was a pipe dream after the trade deadline of last year most of yall were just attached till the bitter end sadly. It wouldn't surprise me if Billy comes back next year I honestly don't know who would be the best option out there

[Jersey Generals]

Except, it is his fault. He traded for him, he gave him the contract, its his player. To say it's not his fault that Gerald sucks ass is so beyond understanding of a gm's job that I have no idea how you get that idea in your head.

"Guys, this team sucks, but it's not Billy's fault. The team lacks talent and fit, but guys, don't worry, it's not Billy's fault."

That does not compute.

[Jersey Generals]

http://www.netsdaily.com/2012/3/20/2886727/we-wont-be-keeping-our-pick-even-if-its-top-three-if-billy-bobby-can

This was the post. Two things of note:

1. On Anthony Davis I called him Camby with a face up game as his floor even though I hated that comparison because in the previous months I was catching a ton of flack for saying the Camby comparison wasn't a very good one and didn't want the thread to deteriorate into a discussion on that.

2. Same thing with Harden. I had been pretty hard on about the fact I thought strongly OKC would deal him if they couldn't get an extension done, but I received a lot of resistance to that in the months prior to that Fan Post and so only gave him a brief mention at the end.

ND is a different animal then here, it's better to avoid some mentions because it derails the entire topic of conversation in the thread.

Dude, wtf? I argued with you and Antawn about this for weeks, you disagreeing that the pick will be traded regardless, and then you write this behind my back? Dick.