Official Tobias Harris watch thread (The End)

[Kerb Hohl]

Skiles is an abortion when it comes to developing young players. We need the exact opposite type of coach.

Which ones? Shawn Marion, who started all 79 games he played in in his 2nd season in the NBA?

Joe Johnson didn't play much as a rookie...but was a rookie.

Heinrich started 77 games in Skiles' first full season (Heinrich's 2nd season) on the Bulls.

Rookie Ben Gordon led the Bulls in points.

Eddie Curry and Luol Deng played huge minutes as rookies and 2nd year players.

Jennings has started basically since Skiles has started.

Sanders once he developed got into a starting role.

Which young players are we talking about? I'm curious. I don't think I can find a single player still hanging around the NBA that was suffocated by Skiles.

Hell, I'd assume that if Tobias really pans out, he'd start wire-to-wire next season if Skiles was still here.

[Kerb Hohl]

I forgot about that. Why the hell am I arguing with you about this topic when you clearly have no frame of reference?

Because I feel like sometimes I come from one of the better frame of references. I will defer to the analysis of a lot of players to you guys on here, it's why I still read the board.

It leads people to say incorrect things because they are so attached to the team and its young players, such as Scott Skiles can't develop young players. Then you look and there isn't one player that he had riding the pine in his coaching tenure that has ever gone on to be anything (other than Joe Johnson, who was a rookie).

However, I say that I come from a good frame of reference because I was fooled by excitement over CV, Ford, Haislip, Yi, Alexander, etc. If you become emotionally attached, you overrate 90% of them as a die-hard. Every once in a while a Larry Sanders pushes through the mix.

I've watched enough highlights and heard enough from you guys to understand that Harris has a promising offensive skillset, but I'm just saying that when people were claiming he was being wrongfully benched last year after he put up a 10 spot on Alando Tucker or something in the 4th quarter, it got a bit overwhelming.

[Nowak008]

What percentage of the league can create their own shot on a good percentage with low TO's? 10%? 15%? I hate giving up on a 20 year old guy who has the skillset to be that kind of guy. Having said that, I think we got very good value for him.

[paul]

What percentage of the league can create their own shot on a good percentage with low TO's? 10%? 15%? I hate giving up on a 20 year old guy who has the skillset to be that kind of guy. Having said that, I think we got very good value for him.

You feel like a guaranteed 30 games with Redick on the roster was very good value for a locked up Harris?

[midranger]

The mere suggestion that the NBA is a developmental league is insane. How do I know this? By the fact that there is in existence an NBA subsidized Developmental League.

If you want a developmental coach, look there. He was probably fired for losing far too many games, for far too long in the actual NBA.

[Sigra]

The mere suggestion that the NBA is a developmental league is insane. How do I know this? By the fact that there is in existence an NBA subsidized Developmental League.

If you want a developmental coach, look there. He was probably fired for losing far too many games, for far too long in the actual NBA.

Yep.

[paul]

The mere suggestion that the NBA is a developmental league is insane. How do I know this? By the fact that there is in existence an NBA subsidized Developmental League.

If you want a developmental coach, look there. He was probably fired for losing far too many games, for far too long in the actual NBA.

That's seriously what you took from that conversation mid?

Pop's been terrible at developing young guys. So has McHale. Mark Jackson. There's others, but all those guys have put huge development time into young guys with a similar talent level to Harris on extremely good teams just this season. Should those guys be coaching in the D League?

[Kerb Hohl]

And before I get strawmanned myself, I'd like to reiterate that I wouldn't have traded Harris for 30 games of Reddick.

[mojosodope]

And before I get strawmanned myself, I'd like to reiterate that I wouldn't have traded Harris for 30 games of Reddick.

I think a lot of the posters here wouldn't have, even the ones who weren't necessarily high on Harris. Myself as a big fan of Harris personally think it was a good trade because it was apparent that the bucks were never going to utilize Harris properly.

[tranjSAIC]

Magic fan here, do you guys think Harris has any chance to be a 2 guard? Looks like we got our SF of the future in Harkless so having Harris play guard would work better for us.

[jakecronus8]

Harris is a 3/4 not 2/3.

[emunney]

Yeah, Harris is far closer to being a PF than he is a SG. He's almost closer to being a PF than he is to being a SF.

[emunney]

I forgot about that. Why the hell am I arguing with you about this topic when you clearly have no frame of reference?

Because I feel like sometimes I come from one of the better frame of references. I will defer to the analysis of a lot of players to you guys on here, it's why I still read the board.

It leads people to say incorrect things because they are so attached to the team and its young players, such as Scott Skiles can't develop young players. Then you look and there isn't one player that he had riding the pine in his coaching tenure that has ever gone on to be anything (other than Joe Johnson, who was a rookie).

However, I say that I come from a good frame of reference because I was fooled by excitement over CV, Ford, Haislip, Yi, Alexander, etc. If you become emotionally attached, you overrate 90% of them as a die-hard. Every once in a while a Larry Sanders pushes through the mix.

This seems pretty similar to a blind man claiming he can see better than a sighted man because a blind man doesn't get fooled by mirages.

[Ayt]

The mere suggestion that the NBA is a developmental league is insane. How do I know this? By the fact that there is in existence an NBA subsidized Developmental League.

If you want a developmental coach, look there. He was probably fired for losing far too many games, for far too long in the actual NBA.

Did you even read what was posted? I mentioned Adelman as an example. Do you think I think of him as merely a developmental coach? He's one of the best X's and O's guys in the history of the sport. I also mentioned McHale, who I think does a good job of getting the best out of his very young and inexperienced roster. I also think he's a very smart X's and O's guy. I'd argue that Mark Jackson is an inexperienced coach who is doing a great job of utilizing the young guys he has on his roster in a way that both helps his team win and gets the most out of younger players.

The point is that you can have a coach who is good at the traditional aspects of coaching, but, in a place like Milwaukee especially, you absolutely need a coach that can integrate and get the best out of young players as effectively and as quickly as possible. Do you not think that is a skill? I'm sure you could come back with all kinds of examples of young players playing under Skiles, but overall compared to others, I think he's an abortion in that aspect. The young players he does play are almost always NBA ready defensively as rookies and so he can find them minutes in his inflexible mind. If they aren't ready right away to be at least solid defensively, it can take them years to get it through his thick skull that they are ready to play later in their careers. If a young player has other skills but is below average defensively, he cannot figure out ways to utilize their skills in a way that still makes them a positive overall because he's inflexible and unimaginative when it comes to thinking of rotations and roles for his players.

Ersan and Larry are our two best players right now and I'd argue they are as good as they are despite Skiles. You probably see it differently, but their really is no way I can make an argument that can change your mind. I think Skiles is the type of coach who needs to be coaching a veteran team if he's in the NBA. He probably should be a college coach at somewhere like Purdue.

[ackypoo]

its a lot easier to develop a defensive post game when your as slow moving your feet as harris is.

he should be playing the 4.

[linguini8]

A bit OT, but while on the subject of development and the D-League - I miss the NBA of my childhood. Used to be players would stay in school until their Junior/Senior year before entering the draft. Unless of course it was a LeBron type. The draft is filled with way too many Freshman/Sophmores with "potential" these days. Players are entering the draft early and coming to the NBA for the quick guranteed 2-3 million dollars. Most of them find themselves in the D-League or on the end of the bench, likely demoralized by their new situations. Overall, over the last 10-15 years it has really hurt player development and the competitiveness of the league IMO.

For instance, if Tobias was currently in his Junior season at Tennessee it's likely that we would know whether he could actually be a solid NBA player or not.

[Ayt]

its a lot easier to develop a defensive post game when your as slow moving your feet as harris is.

he should be playing the 4.

He'll get burn at the 4 in Orlando alongside Harkness, but I strongly disagree that his feet are too slow to play the three. He needs to work on his technique and he needs reps against NBA caliber perimiter players, but he's easily athletic enough to not only play the 3, but to be very good defensively at the 3. I'm not saying he will be a very good defender of the 3, but he certainly has the athleticism to do it. That potential comes mainly from his strength, balance, and his quick jumping ability. When his footwork is solid, he's very tough to score on.

[mojosodope]

its a lot easier to develop a defensive post game when your as slow moving your feet as harris is.

he should be playing the 4.

He'll get burn at the 4 in Orlando alongside Harkness, but I strongly disagree that his feet are too slow to play the three. He needs to work on his technique and he needs reps against NBA caliber perimiter players, but he's easily athletic enough to not only play the 3, but to be very good defensively at the 3. I'm not saying he will be a very good defender of the 3, but he certainly has the athleticism to do it. That potential comes mainly from his strength, balance, and his quick jumping ability. When his footwork is solid, he's very tough to score on.

I'm sure the knock will be that his minutes came in garbage time or whatever, so take it with a gran of salt

Evan Dunlap ‏@BQRMagic
Opponents shot 27.5% from the field against Harris.

Evan Dunlap ‏@BQRMagic
Small sample size (just 115 plays guarded), but w/ Bucks, Tobias Harris only allowed 0.64 points per play. 6th-best figure in the league.

[Thunder Muscle]

its a lot easier to develop a defensive post game when your as slow moving your feet as harris is.

he should be playing the 4.

He'll get burn at the 4 in Orlando alongside Harkness, but I strongly disagree that his feet are too slow to play the three. He needs to work on his technique and he needs reps against NBA caliber perimiter players, but he's easily athletic enough to not only play the 3, but to be very good defensively at the 3. I'm not saying he will be a very good defender of the 3, but he certainly has the athleticism to do it. That potential comes mainly from his strength, balance, and his quick jumping ability. When his footwork is solid, he's very tough to score on.

I'm sure the knock will be that his minutes came in garbage time or whatever, so take it with a gran of salt

Evan Dunlap ‏@BQRMagic
Opponents shot 27.5% from the field against Harris.

Evan Dunlap ‏@BQRMagic
Small sample size (just 115 plays guarded), but w/ Bucks, Tobias Harris only allowed 0.64 points per play. 6th-best figure in the league.

Kind of a flawed stat though. Because if he got beat badly, got help, and his guy dumps it off for an easy bucket that probably goes against someone else even though Harris got beat.

[Wiscfan92]

A bit OT, but while on the subject of development and the D-League - I miss the NBA of my childhood. Used to be players would stay in school until their Junior/Senior year before entering the draft. Unless of course it was a LeBron type. The draft is filled with way too many Freshman/Sophmores with "potential" these days. Players are entering the draft early and coming to the NBA for the quick guranteed 2-3 million dollars. Most of them find themselves in the D-League or on the end of the bench, likely demoralized by their new situations. Overall, over the last 10-15 years it has really hurt player development and the competitiveness of the league IMO.

For instance, if Tobias was currently in his Junior season at Tennessee it's likely that we would know whether he could actually be a solid NBA player or not.

Could not agree more here. I hope they impose some sort of rule soon like at least staying for 2-years