Dwayne Casey's Horrible Coaching

[vini_vidi_vici]

There is no defense for Casey if you have seen what Popovich was able to do against MIA and CHI without ANY GOOD PLAYERS ON THE ROAD.

Offense is not the same everywhere.

That same indictment could be made to the rest of the league as Pop is the best coach in the L, by a wide margin.

Pop also has some autonomy over roster moves, does Casey?

[Truthrising]

One thing I don't get is the continual benching of JV in the 4th quarter, I don't have the stats with me But I bet there's a direct correlation between us always being outrebounded and their bigs playing better due to that fact that JV is on the bench

[Jambo]

I just want to add that starting 1.5 good passers in the starting lineup also hurts the offense.

Who are these masked passers because i don't see one player who is a good playmaker or a player who can run an offense on our entire team .

This is a team full of chuckers .

[Rapcity_11]

I just want to add that starting 1.5 good passers in the starting lineup also hurts the offense.

Who are these masked passers because i don't see one player who is a good playmaker or a player who can run an offense on our entire team .

This is a team full of chuckers .

Uh, Kyle Lowry and Amir being the .5.

If you think Lowry is a chucker I don't know what to say.

[NerkaBoston]

I don't think people realize how much personnel impacts the offense. Good coaching will get you nowhere if you have inefficient players. The Raptors were a top ten team offensively prior to the Gay deal, and it makes sense that efficiency would drop when you give up two pretty efficient offensive players the other way.

I mean just look at a guy like Sam Mitchell. No one is going to consider him an offensive coach yet his teams were 11th, 5th, 10th, 9th over his seasons here. And that was because we had someone (Bosh) who could carry an offense. Rudy Gay has never been particularly efficient over his career, neither has Derozan or Bargnani. I don't see why people think a new coach would suddenly make them better.

How players can be efficient if their game is based on running and shooting jump shots... I don't get that... If shots not falling... so why the hell to keep player on the court and wait when shots will start falling. They have 50% of their possessions as wasted opportunities due to forced and stupid shots. No team effort, no plays for bigs... no pnr basketball... and Lowry is not good player as many thinks him to be.. I just can't watch him taking stupid shots... Anyway.. coach is not controlling this team on offense ... can't control tempo and can't make decisions with rotation... he is and will be good assistant coach.

[Jambo]

I just want to add that starting 1.5 good passers in the starting lineup also hurts the offense.

Who are these masked passers because i don't see one player who is a good playmaker or a player who can run an offense on our entire team .

This is a team full of chuckers .

Uh, Kyle Lowry and Amir being the .5.

If you think Lowry is a chucker I don't know what to say.

I'll give Lowry a .5 and Amir has pretty much disappeared on O since Jose was traded . Lowry's a wannabe chucker who's been castrated .

[vini_vidi_vici]

I don't think people realize how much personnel impacts the offense. Good coaching will get you nowhere if you have inefficient players. The Raptors were a top ten team offensively prior to the Gay deal, and it makes sense that efficiency would drop when you give up two pretty efficient offensive players the other way.

I mean just look at a guy like Sam Mitchell. No one is going to consider him an offensive coach yet his teams were 11th, 5th, 10th, 9th over his seasons here. And that was because we had someone (Bosh) who could carry an offense. Rudy Gay has never been particularly efficient over his career, neither has Derozan or Bargnani. I don't see why people think a new coach would suddenly make them better.

How players can be efficient if their game is based on running and shooting jump shots... I don't get that... If shots not falling... so why the hell to keep player on the court and wait when shots will start falling. They have 50% of their possessions as wasted opportunities due to forced and stupid shots. No team effort, no plays for bigs... no pnr basketball... and Lowry is not good player as many thinks him to be.. I just can't watch him taking stupid shots... Anyway.. coach is not controlling this team on offense ... can't control tempo and can't make decisions with rotation... he is and will be good assistant coach.

Sorry the english is abit rough so ill do my best.

Most teams on an NBA level run ISO/PnR, its why we appreciated systems like Adelmans (edit: which he doesnt run alot anymore). Guess what, he too runs alot of ISO, why do you think that is? personnel (namely James Harden). Lets look at this offensive genius (not being condescending) vs Casey.


*Edit: Sorry, Raps top red, Rockets bottom red.

We finish with more post ups, more off screens (predominantly DD), more off PnR. Granted this is the whole season, with and without Gay/Caldy/Davis/etc..

Transition (which isnt set plays), spot ups, and ISOs (despite getting less PPP than the Raps) they finish with more. Seems weird to see that despite the narratives here. And look how effective they are at PnR, yet they dont run it as much as the Raps.

Off the ball cuts, relatively even which is shocking really.

All im saying is, defend it with whatever narratives you guys want, none of it changes the fact that a) the roster is terribly flawed, and b) no one is offering better solutions to more effective, just monologues saying the coach sucks. You are dictated by your personnel.

[Truthrising]

I don't think people realize how much personnel impacts the offense. Good coaching will get you nowhere if you have inefficient players. The Raptors were a top ten team offensively prior to the Gay deal, and it makes sense that efficiency would drop when you give up two pretty efficient offensive players the other way.

I mean just look at a guy like Sam Mitchell. No one is going to consider him an offensive coach yet his teams were 11th, 5th, 10th, 9th over his seasons here. And that was because we had someone (Bosh) who could carry an offense. Rudy Gay has never been particularly efficient over his career, neither has Derozan or Bargnani. I don't see why people think a new coach would suddenly make them better.

How players can be efficient if their game is based on running and shooting jump shots... I don't get that... If shots not falling... so why the hell to keep player on the court and wait when shots will start falling. They have 50% of their possessions as wasted opportunities due to forced and stupid shots. No team effort, no plays for bigs... no pnr basketball... and Lowry is not good player as many thinks him to be.. I just can't watch him taking stupid shots... Anyway.. coach is not controlling this team on offense ... can't control tempo and can't make decisions with rotation... he is and will be good assistant coach.

Sorry the english is abit rough so ill do my best.

Most teams on an NBA level run ISO/PnR, its why we appreciated systems like Adelmans (edit: which he doesnt run alot anymore). Guess what, he too runs alot of ISO, why do you think that is? personnel (namely James Harden). Lets look at this offensive genius (not being condescending) vs Casey.


*Edit: Sorry, Raps top red, Rockets bottom red.

We finish with more post ups, more off screens (predominantly DD), more off PnR. Granted this is the whole season, with and without Gay/Caldy/Davis/etc..

Transition (which isnt set plays), spot ups, and ISOs (despite getting less PPP than the Raps) they finish with more. Seems weird to see that despite the narratives here. And look how effective they are at PnR, yet they dont run it as much as the Raps.

Off the ball cuts, relatively even which is shocking really.

All im saying is, defend it with whatever narratives you guys want, none of it changes the fact that a) the roster is terribly flawed, and b) no one is offering better solutions to more effective, just monologues saying the coach sucks. You are dictated by your personnel.

I think the issue is we are seeing a lot less post ups and PnR since Gay has been added to the team and also the fact Jose has left the team as well, is there any way extrapolate that data?

[vini_vidi_vici]

I think the issue is we are seeing a lot less post ups and PnR since Gay has been added to the team and also the fact Jose has left the team as well, is there any way extrapolate that data?

Get me a job at NBA.com/Synergy? I can only work with what I have.

That point is moot in that, all im saying is even Adelman isnt running what people would consider his bread and butter, the princeton offense. He runs a different offense because of the personnel he has, he doesnt have a great passer at the 4 like he did in Webber, bigs as shooters, etc..

Now how does that contrast with Casey? He has what he has to work with, guys who NEED ISOs not PnRs to be effective even if inefficient (since the trade). People often complain that Lowry has been neutered, forced to be something he isnt, yet all the suggestions are making players something they arent. We run alot of PnRs because we had Jose dominating off of it, shooting incredible, etc.. but hes a ball stopper, "pounds the rock", draws out possessions. All he was doing was running sets for DD, etc.. We trade him, and get a guy who wants ISOs and people complain, man we run too much ISOs. How do you rationalize with that?

This is a personnel issue, scapegoating the coach just isnt fair IMO.

[vini_vidi_vici]

I just realized its McHale as coach, my bad, forget all that hah. Trying to work and post is tough.

Edit ill do Adelman with MIN next.

[MikeM]

There is no defense for Casey if you have seen what Popovich was able to do against MIA and CHI without ANY GOOD PLAYERS ON THE ROAD.

Offense is not the same everywhere.

That same indictment could be made to the rest of the league as Pop is the best coach in the L, by a wide margin.

Pop also has some autonomy over roster moves, does Casey?

Yes, but there are some basic things we could copy. Like having shooters in the corner. Anderson can make a corner 3. Even if he can't, it's better than having him shoot a contested 25 footer. Bargnani can make a corner 3. Lucas can make a corner 3. It's even worthwhile for DeRozan to shoot that shot.

Also, Pop at least has some facet of his offense where the ball will go in the paint and then out, to you know, shift the defense.

How much easier would it be for DeRozan to attack the rim if the ball was coming to him from the post where a defender has sagged off and is now trying to close out? Because that's how a guy like NANDO DE COLO can penetrate a defense.

How about at least a dribble hand off somewhere. How about an off-the-ball screen somewhere? Do you know how effective WAS was with that stupid Nene/Beal off ball screen yesterday? I think they scored every time they used it which was probably 5 times.

To start the game we got DeRozan open on consecutive plays with off ball screens. The problem was that the play was run for him to literally take the longest 2 point shot possible. Do you think it takes a **** genius to tell him to run it all the way into a corner 3 instead of putting your heel on the line?

Offenses use movement and screens not just to get guys open shots but to move the defense. How many times can you say that a defense had to actually rotate against us. NEVER. It never happens. They just set up their 5 man house D. The ball is ALWAYS infront of them. They never have to think or react.

A basic offense will force a defence to at least have situations where they can't actually see the ball and have to communicate or scramble. That's how SAS can shoot 52% on the road vs. CHI with no good players. Suddenly Boris Diaw can beat his man off the bounce... because his man was just forced to help on a back-screen and is now sprinting at him to recover.

[vini_vidi_vici]

I guess I shouldnt have made the comparison to Adelman because this really doesnt tell much.

Obviously he has to rely on more cutting, etc.. based on their personnel. When I thought of Adelman I was thinking in terms of getting a ball dominant perimeter player, two if you count Lin.

This team is poor offensively. And you see that with how they fair league ranked at all their possession finishes, the highest being off screens at 13th (.91 PPP), which they dont finish with often enough.

My apologies to misleading earlier with the above post.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Yes, but there are some basic things we could copy. Like having shooters in the corner. Anderson can make a corner 3. Even if he can't, it's better than having him shoot a contested 25 footer. Bargnani can make a corner 3. Lucas can make a corner 3. It's even worthwhile for DeRozan to shoot that shot.

Also, Pop at least has some facet of his offense where the ball will go in the paint and then out, to you know, shift the defense.

How much easier would it be for DeRozan to attack the rim if the ball was coming to him from the post where a defender has sagged off and is now trying to close out? Because that's how a guy like NANDO DE COLO can penetrate a defense.

How about at least a dribble hand off somewhere. How about an off-the-ball screen somewhere? Do you know how effective WAS was with that stupid Nene/Beal off ball screen yesterday? I think they scored every time they used it which was probably 5 times.

To start the game we got DeRozan open on consecutive plays with off ball screens. The problem was that the play was run for him to literally take the longest 2 point shot possible. Do you think it takes a **** genius to tell him to run it all the way into a corner 3 instead of putting your heel on the line?

Offenses use movement and screens not just to get guys open shots but to move the defense. How many times can you say that a defense had to actually rotate against us. NEVER. It never happens. They just set up their 5 man house D. The ball is ALWAYS infront of them. They never have to think or react.

A basic offense will force a defence to at least have situations where they can't actually see the ball and have to communicate or scramble. That's how SAS can shoot 52% on the road vs. CHI with no good players. Suddenly Boris Diaw can beat his man off the bounce... because his man was just forced to help on a back-screen and is now sprinting at him to recover.

Everyone in the NBA can make a corner three, can they do it consistently?
AA, he does take it often.

Bargs, 2/6. Likes it up top.

JL3, tough to argue, but hes been shooting great all over the floor.

DD isnt a great shooter from the corners.


The issue is all three play limited mins.

So now lets move to Pop vs Case. Again I want to reiterate they are built alot differently, in terms of actually being able to knock down the 3 (5th in the L), 1 in ASTs, DRBG, and being 2nd in FG%, 4th best in PPG, and 6th ORTG. Great in transition.Should I contrast that with the Raps? And in terms of sets/personnel. Anyways here goes.



We finish from the post more than the Spurs, so its not like we dont go inside as often as them to score, its that their bigs are better passers as you mentioned. Including DD who leads in post, and having traded our second best post scorer Ed, atleast in terms of USG down there. Im sure by the end of the season Rudy Gay will make up alot more of that.

They also have one of the best penetrators, in TP, and arguably another in Manu. I get what youre saying, but its more of a personnel issue most of your gripes. Pop plays to his strengths, because he has autonomy over the roster and gets players that fit his system. Not accumulating talent and throwing it together. Ask yourself this, would Pop have two inefficient wing players on his roster? let alone in the starting lineup?

Ill try and respond after work sometime, ive spent enough time not doing work. take care guys.

[vini_vidi_vici]

I just wanted to throw this in here, we dont have a Danny Green (.431 3pt% on 299 att), a Boris Diaw (.426 on 61 att), or a Matt Bonner (.422 on 90 ATT), either as role players. Our best? JL3 (.426 on 108 att), and Lowry (.408 on 179), AA (.351 on 194).

Using AA as the third best option, heres who shoots better from 3 based on % on the Spurs. The above 3, Leonard/Parker/Anderson/Mills/Ginobili/De Colo/Neal. 10 are better than the Raps third option AA, from 3.

[MikeM]

They all get those numbers based on the offense. They are taking OPEN shots all game.

I'm way too lazy to post pictures and videos so I'll just say venture to JoonKim00's youtube channel. You'll find literally more unique offensive sets from the Spurs in 30 secs than you'd see watching a month worth of our games.

Go to Vorped.com and look at our shooting zones in the last 30 days vs. ANY TOP OFFENSE. Just pick a random offense. They'll have half as many long 2s. Twice as many corner 3s. And more attempts at the rim.

That's all there is to good offense. You have to penetrate and look to finish at the rim. You have to then kick out for 3s. You have to avoid contested long 2s. How you get to those situations is either pure talent or coaching.

Watch how many times Danny Green or Neal or De Colo blows by his man next time the Spurs are on TV. Are they better at penetrating than DeRozan, NO! But his man is scrambling to recover to him so he literally takes 2 dribbles and finishes at the rim or continues to kick it out.

Here's a taste of how to create a wide open look with literally no talent on the court:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_iZNrXfK4Q&list=UUy5xDj8Q1zKcmccJl9pbVYA[/youtube]

Another: Can we not just replace Bonner with Bargnani and Green with Anderson and at least come close to these results? Are Bonner and Green that ELITE?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MaknTAlzjs&list=UUy5xDj8Q1zKcmccJl9pbVYA[/youtube]

Might as well just keep going. Here is old man S-Jax using his super duper penetration skills to draw and kick. The man can't even move, how does he get into the paint?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To4xfOkjMCk&list=UUy5xDj8Q1zKcmccJl9pbVYA[/youtube]

Can we just look at the talent on the floor in this one? Mills, Bonner, Green, Splitter, Leonard. Somehow Green gets another open look and even if he wanted to he could have literally walked around his defender. Anderson can't do that? Gay can't? DeRozan can't? Even if they're not comfortable shooting the 3 they could cut it short and take a 15 footer no? It's still an open shot.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nMsMiHC-mI&list=UUy5xDj8Q1zKcmccJl9pbVYA[/youtube]

[Marvin Martian]

Here we are talking about offense. yeah you would like to step away from the isos and start generating off ball screens and cuts for players not named Derozan but i would be more concerned about the 26th ranked defense at this point.


Considering that Casey is supposed to be a "defensive minded" coach, it is baffling how bad this team is on that end.

[ill3stbucky]

Hey guys been reading realgm for pretty long now but never posted. Anyways, you guys are not the only ones that think casey is a horrible coach. Last year i went out to eat at chinese restaurant on spadina...guess who i bump into there...James Johnson! I bumped into him the day after they lost to Chicago last year when Luol Deng had tipin at the buzzer. I asked him wtf happened? I told him my friend had a 5 game parlay he waged 300 to win 10000 and he lost that parlay because the Raptors lost to the Bulls. James Johnson replied and said "its coaching man...every game we lose is because of coaching." Btw James Johnson is a great cool dude. He ended up buying me and my dad shots of greygoose and we did the same and he ended up paying for our whole bill. Great guy! So anyways back to Casey, now i understand why he said coaching was the issue and why he got traded. Ill post a pic of me my dad and James Johnson. I wonder how many other players on our team thinks Casey is a horrible coach.

[Undefeated]

I'm sure Pop is an excellent teacher, but you have to acknowledge what the Spurs do mostly fall on their players being able to read-and-react based on their instinct. During the flow of a game the coach isn't going to tell his players where to move off the ball into open real estate because there's too much going on for the coach to be yelling at the sideline for the other 4 players off the ball. The Spurs are great at what they do finding open shots because they have high IQ players knowing where to be when the ball goes in a certain direction and when someone makes a move off the dribble. You can practice all these playbook sets, but when it's game time it's completely different because of scouting and different defensive team coverages.

The second clip is exactly what the Raptors run and most other team execute on a possession basis -- the horn sets. If you have LP, check the play at 4:01 of the 1st Quarter in last night's game and it's the exact same formation. The Raptors had Lowry bringing the ball up and making the same post entry pass to the left elbow to Bargnani like Neal to Blair. As soon as that ball left his hand he made the exact same UCLA cut down the lane to set up a down screen for DeMar to come up and receive the pitch off pass from Bargnani. The difference is that Green changed direction and made the deep cut to the strong side. Essentially, the offense stagnates because nothing ever happens on the weak side for the Raptors; no cutting, no faking and no screening. That left DeMar taking a contested shot off the dribble from the foul line after a combo move because nothing "opened up" for him. That shoulders on his teammates for not moving on the weak side, not the coach.

[Rapcity_11]

MikeM - You clearly have no idea what 3 point shooting threats do for an offense. As well as having 3-5 GOOD passers on the floor. Literally every one of those Spurs clips were predicated on them have great 3 point shooters out on the floor. The Spurs are able to get the defense into compromising positions and take advantage from there. The Raps are struggling to do so.

Find me some clips of the Spurs with ONE capable 3 point shooter on the floor.

[MikeM]

I have an idea that those guys are wide open. Look how open Green is against Denver. Because they were running at Bonner. Are you telling me they wouldn't run at Bargnani?