POG vs. the 'Cats

[Neon Black]

It just comes across to me as nitpicking in order to support a predetermined opinion.

The issues you bring up about Kanter's game are TRUE, but they in NO WAY are impediments to him becoming a very good player.

Like the turnover thing...Kanter gets 1.5 turnover this season at about 15 minutes per game. Well Dwight Howard averages 3 in about twice as many minutes. Shaq approached 3 turnover per game his entire career. Karl Malone had seasons of 4, 3.7, 2.9, 3 and so on turnovers per game. It's a moot point. All you've proven is that Kanter turns the ball over at a similar rate as some of the best big men to play the game.

How about getting blocked...something that happens in bunches some games (yet not at all in others).

Kanter gets blocked 19% on close shots, 9% on jump shots, 0% on dunks, 0% on tips, and 15% on inside shots.
Kevin Love's blocked 21% close shots, 7% on jump shots, 11% on dunks, 0% on tips and 16% on inside shots.

Yet Kevin Love is still a great player.

What is REALLY important is overall FG%, which blocked shots are factored into. You're putting all this weight into blocked shots because the LOOK bad and are embarrassing, but when it's all said and done Enes Kanter still puts 54% of his shots into the hoop.

Also, I recall one of your arguments used to be that Enes had a poor shooting touch, which clearly hasn't proven to be the case. Also that he "fails the eye test"...and well, that's just not exactly quantifiable.

[Neon Black]

I sure hope you actually read all these very reasonable counterarguments and think about them.

[Litany]

It just comes across to me as nitpicking in order to support a predetermined opinion.

The issues you bring up about Kanter's game are TRUE, but they in NO WAY are impediments to him becoming a very good player.

Like the turnover thing...Kanter gets 1.5 turnover this season at about 15 minutes per game. Well Dwight Howard averages 3 in about twice as many minutes. Shaq approached 3 turnover per game his entire career. Karl Malone had seasons of 4, 3.7, 2.9, 3 and so on turnovers per game. It's a moot point. All you've proven is that Kanter turns the ball over at a similar rate as some of the best big men to play the game.

How about getting blocked...something that happens in bunches some games (yet not at all in others).

Kanter gets blocked 19% on close shots, 9% on jump shots, 0% on dunks, 0% on tips, and 15% on inside shots.
Kevin Love's blocked 21% close shots, 7% on jump shots, 11% on dunks, 0% on tips and 16% on inside shots.

Yet Kevin Love is still a great player.

What is REALLY important is overall FG%, which blocked shots are factored into. You're putting all this weight into blocked shots because the LOOK bad and are embarrassing, but when it's all said and done Enes Kanter still puts 54% of his shots into the hoop.

Also, I recall one of your arguments used to be that Enes had a poor shooting touch, which clearly hasn't proven to be the case. Also that he "fails the eye test"...and well, that's just not exactly quantifiable.

Lots of good insight here people.

[StocktonShorts]

^^ yep. Lots of hedgehogging in this thread.

[Inigo Montoya]

^^ yep. Lots of hedgehogging in this thread.

i don't know what that means, but i got a feeling it is not like jackpotting.

*EDIT: yep, definitely not like jackpotting:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hedgehogging

[reapaman]

For future reference those percentage of shots blocked you listed neon are based on how much they are blocked from each spot and doesn't take into consideration how much they are blocked overall based on how many shots they take. For example Kevin Love's rookie season he was at 10.8% of shots blocked and 9.4 the year afterward and by his 4th season he was 6.2%. Kanter was 15.3% his rookie season and currently at 13% and its expected to go up once the stats are updated. Both put Kanter towards the very top of the league which having done it twice puts him into some very bad company. The only worthwhile big man thats up there to do it twice in recent history is omer asik who is crap offensively and lives off his overall elite defensive abilites which isn't Kanters strongest suit. The problems are glaring when you watch him as is his steep drop in shots in the post are also glaring.

And Dwight averaged 3 turnovers after his first couple of seasons but only 2ish at the beginning. What made Dwight's go up is defenses started really getting after him in the post and he would have the ball low and get stripped. Kanter isn't getting that level of attention yet nor is he playing versus starters and yet he's averaging 1 full more turnover per 36 than dwight did in his 2nd season. Like I said this level of increase is unprecedented, I'm not just trying to nitpick. I'm just stating stats but you can see the problems when he plays, its glaring. People keep saying oh it will get better but these type of problems take a very long time to get better based on history which is why I'm harping on them so much. He may be only 20 but dwight is just now expanding his offensive game and learning how to not hold the ball too long and he's was further along than Enes is in that regard.

FG% is deceiving because even a guy like noah has shot in the 50%'s for most of his career and he's not exactly an offensive juggernaut. You gotta look deeper.

[reapaman]

^^ yep. Lots of hedgehogging in this thread.

**Looks up hedgehogging**

See things about pubic hairs, jumping over fences, taking dumps, and being a pedo. I assure you none of these are going on in this thread ... to my knowledge. Mabye indigo has some dirty secrets.

[StocktonShorts]

^^ yep. Lots of hedgehogging in this thread.

**Looks up hedgehogging**

See things about pubic hairs, jumping over fences, taking dumps, and being a pedo. I assure you none of these are going on in this thread ... to my knowledge. Mabye indigo has some dirty secrets.

I'm only kind of sorry to send you off on that search. I meant it in terms of Nate Silver's definition of two types of forecasters: hedgehogs and foxes. The hedgehog makes grand predictions and then filters out data that doesn't match his predictions.

[Inigo Montoya]

^^ yep. Lots of hedgehogging in this thread.

**Looks up hedgehogging**

See things about pubic hairs, jumping over fences, taking dumps, and being a pedo. I assure you none of these are going on in this thread ... to my knowledge. Mabye indigo has some dirty secrets.

you just opened the door to countless "your mama" jokes...

[Inigo Montoya]

Mabye indigo has some dirty secrets.

have i become the gordan haywood of the forum?

[RyanStorm]

After spending 30 minutes reading most of the posts, I want to bring my 2 cents(if you don't want to spend 30 minutes reading just my post, jump to my opinions below that sums everything):

Some Facts You Can Read Later, My Main Opinion Is Below:
-12/7/12 Kanters First Start- 131-99 Win Over Toronto(Previous Matchup took Big Al and Paul to Triple OT where they only scored 140 points). Which begs the question does Jefferson inhibit others from scoring with his offense! Even if he takes more "less-higher" percentage "one on one" jump shots that allows him to have big nights that win most games....at home, is it worth it when you got evans scoring 14 and carroll 19, while still having your Center score 23?!?

-in 12/7 game Kanter had 18 points 8 rebounds(as expected by me), Paul had 20-10(literally). All Starters had 10+ points, 3 bench over 10, and everyone who played including Jeremey Evans(who had 10), scored at least 5 points. We had 48 rebounds and 31 assists, where as a team shot 56% from 3pt and 50% from FG. Surprisingly we didn't have Favors in this game nor Al. But still had 8 blocks, and this game was only 48 mins!

-In 11/12 Raptors took us to 3 OT's. we had two starters at 17, and a 24 and 34 performance from Al and Paul, with Hayward at starter with 12. Carroll, Evans, Burks and Murph didn't play, in the 9 man rotation centered around Al. In this game, Kanter got 12 minutes, 3 rebounds and 1 point. Tinsley got 0, Favors and Foye had 15 and 20 off bench. We had 46 rebounds and 30 assists. They had an extra 15 minutes to complete all this, and still barely managed to match what they did with Kanter's system in 48 minutes instead of Al's System in 63 minutes, which they barely won in the 4th attempt.

-Fast Forward to Bobcats. Kanter had 23-22. 18 pts from rest of starters, but 4 bench players with 10+, two at 14 and one at 19. We have 62 rebounds(record), and above average 23 assists. This game had no Paul or Al, and we still manage 8 blocks and 8 steals both above average. The bench mark here is, of all teams in NBA we held Bobcats to lowest score, even spurs allowed 78, and Bobcats had 5 day rest before us not 1 day for @Spurs!!!


Opinions:
I have blamed Al for Marv's inability to score, but even with Kanter's system Marvin is still as useless as sight seeing a seal in the water. Also in Kanters system, backcourt Foye and Burks had plenty of shooting space and had many options to run the offense.


Most Important Thing To Look At That Sums Everything:
I can't stop putting Kanter on pedastool, but I can't ignore the fact that Al has guided Kanter's maturity in his game, whether this is good or bad, I have to admit, tack on Al's anytime jump shot to Kanter, and toss Al out now!!!

But I just think it means something when two less-offense players go from a frustrating system where their defense makes their points, to being 14pt-9reb and 19-3reb-3stl in Kanters system that gives them breathing room at SF's position to actually be a part of the offense! And still allows our backcourt to have plenty options to make a play and room to shoot the 3. Getting Carroll and Evans active offense allows them to have great defensive nights which is like their normal game on steroids, I mean 3 steals from Carroll...goodbye Paul!!

The proof is there again, ALL our younglings are great stater players with great roofs, even Evans and Murph n Turf

This New Proof shows that Burks is best option at PG. Evans and Carrol prove that Kanter is the better Center for them to play offensively which makes them more confident on defense, and makes it even more obvious that Marvin sucks more than we previously imagined(1 point to Carrols 19, do the math). Both Evans and Carroll are ready to take his position now!

[PimpHandStrong]

I don't post or really even lurk on this board, but I thought the following were pretty **** hilarious:

Last night, the majority of his shots were dunks and layups (a few jumpshots mixed in).

What?

I pick guys I like and guys I don't pre-draft and stick to them never waiver.

Ah...So you form an opinion of a player based on next to nothing, and then stick to that opinion as more information becomes available even when it contradicts your original opinion. I never considered willful ignorance a virtue.

[QuantumMacgyver]

Guys... as everyone knows shooting percentages don't count for bigs!!!! 23 points is 23 points. And everyone knows he sucks because it takes at least 5 years to develop any reliable offensive skills.

PS. Reapa will NEVER admit he is wrong about Kanter. Will NEVER happen!!! If you want to debate Reapa you would be better off debating a brick wall. Never Forget...

Refuses
Every
Accurate
Point
And
Mouths
Absolute
Nonsense

[Hoops Addict]

For future reference those percentage of shots blocked you listed neon are based on how much they are blocked from each spot and doesn't take into consideration how much they are blocked overall based on how many shots they take. For example Kevin Love's rookie season he was at 10.8% of shots blocked and 9.4 the year afterward and by his 4th season he was 6.2%. Kanter was 15.3% his rookie season and currently at 13% and its expected to go up once the stats are updated.

A

Most players cannot BULL their way into the paint and able to get under the basket to shoot...like Kanter does. It is ok to get blocked when you get underthe hoop, because you get fouled and double teamed...which leaves your team mates open for offensive rebounds.

Kanter had a great game....I knew he had a good jumper too.

Those who criticize his awesome game probably did not ever play high school sports and were Star Trek sissy nerds.

p.s. When Kanter bulls to the hoop, he demands the double team and our bench was wide open and scored A LOT.

See you later Al Jefferson. You were a good team mate, but we are not giving you $12M-$16M a year.

[Nate505]

Ty Cobin on the Bobcats game:

It started with Earl [Watson], Randy [Foye] and Marvin [Williams]–the veteran guys. I thought the young guys did a good job of following their lead getting us off to a good start.

I'm wondering if he lives in some alternate reality and doesn't watch the same games. And this is the f'ing head coach. Unbelievable.

[reapaman]

Please .... these people were mia the two games before that when he stunk it up and make excuses for him being inconsistent by saying its because of him coming off the bench.

People said the same thing about Favors fouling issues and what happened? He fouled out while blowing out the bobcats. Who does that?

I have not contradicted my orginal opinion. Name one time I used stats from 82 games to make a conclusive argument whether they help my case or not? If I think the stats are crap then why would I use them to form my opinion? Thats defeates the purpose of an opinion. The stats I used are the same ones I've been using since last season which are mostly from hoop data and basketball reference which I have used since before I started posting on this site.

BTW, a certain someone on here use the TS% on me against Jefferson and also for Kanter/Favors last summer, then I brought up Tyson Chandler and Deandre Jordan (among others) and they scrapped that argument and went with a different one yet I get accused for flakin.

P.S. When I said I don't waiver from my opinion, thats what I meant. Example, I said Harden is manu 2.0 and will kinda struggle his first couple of years like manu did. If harden struggled for alot longer than that then my orginal opinion would be wrong then I would admit it. I'm not gonna say pre-draft. "I like this guy", then I think he a bust (or just play ignore it) after a tough time adjusting to the nba then think he's good again when he plays good again like the majority of people do on this site. Make your opinion and stick with it. If you turn out to be wrong, then your wrong.

[StocktonShorts]

Ty Cobin on the Bobcats game:

It started with Earl [Watson], Randy [Foye] and Marvin [Williams]–the veteran guys. I thought the young guys did a good job of following their lead getting us off to a good start.

I'm wondering if he lives in some alternate reality and doesn't watch the same games. And this is the f'ing head coach. Unbelievable.

It's the only plausible explanation left.

[Litany]

I don't post or really even lurk on this board, but I thought the following were pretty **** hilarious:

Last night, the majority of his shots were dunks and layups (a few jumpshots mixed in).

What?

I pick guys I like and guys I don't pre-draft and stick to them never waiver.

Ah...So you form an opinion of a player based on next to nothing, and then stick to that opinion as more information becomes available even when it contradicts your original opinion. I never considered willful ignorance a virtue.

Haha thank you. It's fascinating the way reapamans brain works.

[Litany]

Guys... as everyone knows shooting percentages don't count for bigs!!!! 23 points is 23 points. And everyone knows he sucks because it takes at least 5 years to develop any reliable offensive skills.

PS. Reapa will NEVER admit he is wrong about Kanter. Will NEVER happen!!! If you want to debate Reapa you would be better off debating a brick wall. Never Forget...

Refuses
Every
Accurate
Point
And
Mouths
Absolute
Nonsense

Yep. Someone said he lacks intellectual honesty. I think that's a fair assessment.

[RyanStorm]

I think Kanter's paint work is awesome. Drawing the double team allowed Carroll and Evans to score great points which I think is most important to look at. He had two guys who we never expected to score 10+ combined, yet each had 10+ each. You add in Burks PGing penetration and you got plenty of open guys and easy perimeter passing, that allowed everyone but Favors to have an amazing game(marv, wats and tins are incapable of a great game so they don't count).

I know Jefferson has the scoring ability and the experience, but I think we question Kanter more than Jefferson even if its the same thing. Like I remember the reports and analysis was that Kanter has a bad shot to pass back ratio and that he never passes the ball back out which caused TO's(from a Center who gets 12 minutes a game, who if he doesn't take the ball to the hoop each time he only gets less than 5 attempts per game)...
Well Jefferson does the exact same thing but on a 30 min a game level, the only difference Al isn't making more of them high percentage shots and settles a lot on one to one man ups and he also leaves the picking to Paul or Favors! Kanter gets a lot of his attemps after setting the screen and geting the lane open. At a subatomic level Al and Kanter play a very similar game.


I think Kanter has a ceiling of becoming the next Howard. Maybe not as successful but will be as dominate at Center position as Howard is/was. Kanter has the physical make up of what is needed to be dominate, and with some tutoring and experience Kanter will be able to play these 20-10 games ever day, even with only 30 mins. Al has certainly helped his scoring ability, while the others have helped him with defense.

I think were really lucky to have so many talented young guys. I am even convinced Evans is good enough for bench now.