Ok can someone explain Adrian Dantley to me?

[Waterford]

Lately the big discussion has been the current era vs 80's, 90's and how much better and physical defenses were back in those days and how today's perimetre stars would struggle to score.

I was born in 82, didn't start watching bball till around 92.

So being completely honest I wasn't around for the 80's, but from what I'm told it was basically legal back then to play prison ball. So in that light can someone please explain to me how a 6'5" 205 pound man over the course of 7 seasons avg 30ppg on 56% shooting?

While you're at it, could you explain Alex English, Vandeweghe, Gervin, Mychal Thompson? These guys were putting up MONSTER number, not good numbers, not great numbers INSANE, out of this galaxy numbers.

HOW?

only two guards have scored 20 ppg on 50% or better since like 92 (Wade and Parker) in this weak defensive era. In the 80's you had a million guards doing this.

Am i to believe all the great scorers from then were greater than all the elite scorers from now, because that is what the raw numbers say and they did it in a far tougher era. I mean jesus, Adrian Dantley put up PEAK Shaq offensive numbers for 7-9 seasons at 205 pounds?

Make me understand this PLEASE.

[22WigginsRoss31]

this is a weak defensive era ?

[22WigginsRoss31]

the 80's had the weak defense, since the mid 90's defense have better much better, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird never seen defense like how MJ seen it both ways.

[basketball royalty]

late 80's and the 90's is when real D was played. The rule changes were made to get scoring back to where they were in the early 80's.

[Waterford]

Also who were the great defenses of the 80's and 90's

we need to compile a list

97 Heat
98 Pacers
96 Sonics
90's Bulls
92 Knicks

don't know enough about the 80's, I know the 86 Celtics were like #1 that season but from the highlights I've watched they were horrible, particularly on the perimetre.

SO who were the GREAT defenses of the 80's

[22WigginsRoss31]

late 80's and the 90's is when real D was played. The rule changes were made to get scoring back to where they were in the early 80's.

2003-2004 was greatest defensive era of alltime, don't believe....check the stats.

The only thing the 80's had was they were allowed to play dirty a few times.

[Waterford]

Still waiting for an explanation on Dantley.

I mean for real though, who was this guy

Dude's scoring numbers and efficiency is mind-boggling.

[aol4532]

It's not so much that defenses are better, but rather, teams just milk the clock and play half-court more. 03-04 was the pinnacle of zone defense, hand-checking and milking the clock.

[Chalk1]

faster pace

[TheChosen618]

He scored a lot and an incredibly efficient rate, but he also took like the entire shot clock to score. He would go in the post and everyone else was just standing around doing nothing. He was like the ultimate ball-stopper and that's why nobody is impressed with his great scoring numbers because it didn't help his team.

[basketball royalty]

late 80's and the 90's is when real D was played. The rule changes were made to get scoring back to where they were in the early 80's.

2003-2004 was greatest defensive era of alltime, don't believe....check the stats.

The only thing the 80's had was they were allowed to play dirty a few times.

???

I said 90's not 80's were the defensive years of the L. Maybe that bled into the early 2000's but it certainly isn't crazy defensive right now.

[22WigginsRoss31]

Still waiting for an explanation on Dantley.

I mean for real though, who was this guy

Dude's scoring numbers and efficiency is mind-boggling.

it's the 80's what do you expect? 90% of the teams (if not more) played at a faster pace than the Phoenix Suns Steve Nash.

There was hardley any defense that era, plus the players weren't as physical and strong enough.

A rookie Lebron James 18 put up 20/5/5 in 03-04, imagine him playing in an era where teams didn't focus on defense?

[Blame Rasho]

faster pace

There were more possession to make baskets. The Jazz were among the slowest teams in that era, in fact had the slowest pace: 97.7 (23rd of 23) in 80/81. Just for a frame of reference the fastest team today is the Rockets going at a 96.3 rate.

[mopper8]

IMO today its easier to get by the first line of defense (hand checks), but harder to get by the second (zones have bene perfected). Which encourages drive-n-kick, good spacing, etc. But isn't going to lead to a lot of high scoring, high % guards

As for the 80's, defense wasn't that great at all back then. Only started to get good at the very end of the decade, and really that was relatively speaking. And the pace was much higher, which is why the volume numbers look crazy.

[fatal9]

AD was different than the other wings. He was a "little-big man" of sorts. But most of those wings got a lot of easy transition opportunities game after game, the focus wasn't as much stopping your opponent as it was to outscore them. It was an up and down transition game, taking good, quick shots, wings generally got a lot of easy transition jumpers, so if you had a midrange shot, you were going to put up big scoring numbers. Against good set defense/good athletic defenders, those Kelly Tripucka types weren't as special as their numbers would indicate.

Dantley had a really good post game and was incredibly strong for his size. Maybe the most unguarable player scoring wise from that era when he's iso-ing up like 15 feet from the hoop. If you put a smaller defender on him, he'd overpower them, if you put a bigger defender on him, he'd be too quick. Guy took on guys who had size on him and regularly gave them the business, you can see AC Green having a lot of trouble guarding him in the finals. He had a great feel for his defender's positioning so in isolation, he could work them and find a way to get past them. He was the master of using contact to create space which helped him finish against bigger defenders in the lane, great finisher around the basket. He's a good player to watch to help your pickup game if you like working with your back to the basket. He also ran up the court for easy scoring opportunities a lot, sometimes not smartly, because he wouldn't help his teams with defensive rebounds (not because he lacked rebounding ability either, he was a phenomenal offensive rebounder), but his efficiency too is helped by lots of transition scoring because he loved running up the court to get a quick scoring opportunity whenever a shot was released.

The problem with him though? He needs to really stall the offense for his half court scoring, so he kills your ball movement. It feels like you have two options when you have Dantley, 1 on 5 or 4 on 5. He's not creating for anyone and rarely is anyone creating for him (didn't move well off the ball except for getting offensive boards, didn't really have range past 18 feet and even then his release was slow). His coaches, especially in the Jazz days, were very concerned with him turning teammates into spectators. So his great 1 on 1 ability comes with a cost. The other parts of his game left a lot to be desired as well.

[Waterford]

late 80's and the 90's is when real D was played. The rule changes were made to get scoring back to where they were in the early 80's.

2003-2004 was greatest defensive era of alltime, don't believe....check the stats.

The only thing the 80's had was they were allowed to play dirty a few times.

???

I said 90's not 80's were the defensive years of the L. Maybe that bled into the early 2000's but it certainly isn't crazy defensive right now.

What you think about the 08 Celts, the 11 Heat and Bulls?

I think that period of weak defense is much shorter than you believe, it was that adjusting period right after the league placed more emphasis on freeing up the game.

I'd say from 04-05-06-07

since then the defenses are picking back up
2008 Celts are statistically a top 3 defense EVER, they absolutely RAPED LeBRAWN in the 08 ECF

[Blame Rasho]

Lately the big discussion has been the current era vs 80's, 90's and how much better and physical defenses were back in those days and how today's perimetre stars would struggle to score.

I was born in 82, didn't start watching bball till around 92.

So being completely honest I wasn't around for the 80's, but from what I'm told it was basically legal back then to play prison ball. So in that light can someone please explain to me how a 6'5" 205 pound man over the course of 7 seasons avg 30ppg on 56% shooting?

While you're at it, could you explain Alex Englis, Vandeweghe, Gervin, Mychal Thompson? These guys were putting up MONSTER number, not good numbers, not great numbers INSANE, out of this galaxy numbers.

HOW?

only two guards have scored 20 ppg on 50% or better since like 92 (Wade and Parker) in this weak defensive era. In the 80's you had a million guards doing this.

Am i to believe all the great scorers from then were greater than all the elite scorers from now, because that is what the raw numbers say and they did it in a far tougher era. I mean jesus, Adrian Dantley put up PEAK Shaq offensive numbers for 7-9 seasons at 205 pounds?

Make me understand this PLEASE.

Look at pace my friend and the correlation of volume stats...

Go to basketball reference and check out Denver's teams.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1981.html

Pace: 109.8 (1st of 23)
PTS/G: 121.8 (1st of 23)
Opp PTS/G: 122.3 (23rd of 23)
Off Rtg: 109.4 (1st of 23)
Def Rtg: 109.8 (22nd of 23)

[G35]

Lately the big discussion has been the current era vs 80's, 90's and how much better and physical defenses were back in those days and how today's perimetre stars would struggle to score.

I was born in 82, didn't start watching bball till around 92.

So being completely honest I wasn't around for the 80's, but from what I'm told it was basically legal back then to play prison ball. So in that light can someone please explain to me how a 6'5" 205 pound man over the course of 7 seasons avg 30ppg on 56% shooting?

While you're at it, could you explain Alex Englis, Vandeweghe, Gervin, Mychal Thompson? These guys were putting up MONSTER number, not good numbers, not great numbers INSANE, out of this galaxy numbers.

HOW?

only two guards have scored 20 ppg on 50% or better since like 92 (Wade and Parker) in this weak defensive era. In the 80's you had a million guards doing this.

Am i to believe all the great scorers from then were greater than all the elite scorers from now, because that is what the raw numbers say and they did it in a far tougher era. I mean jesus, Adrian Dantley put up PEAK Shaq offensive numbers for 7-9 seasons at 205 pounds?

Make me understand this PLEASE.

Look at pace my friend and the correlation of volume stats...

Go to basketball reference and check out Denver's teams.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1981.html

Pace: 109.8 (1st of 23)
PTS/G: 121.8 (1st of 23)
Opp PTS/G: 122.3 (23rd of 23)
Off Rtg: 109.4 (1st of 23)
Def Rtg: 109.8 (22nd of 23)

I wonder if anyone considers pace when looking at Houston Rockets numbers (Harden is a superstar):

Houston Rockets 2013

Pace 96.3 (1st of 30)
PTS/G: 106.5 (2nd of 30)
Opp PTS/G: 103.7 (29 of 30)
Off Rtg: 110.1 (4th of 30)
Def Rtg: 107.1 (23rd of 30)


What is everyone's judgement of James Harden.....pretty much superstar consensus.


"If all the statisticians in the world were laid head to toe, they wouldn't be able to reach a conclusion" Anon

[D.Brasco]

I've wondered about this guy as well? With some of these high scorers from the 80's who people don't really bring up that much i always wonder are they being underrated or were they just actually over-rated?

You'd think this guy would have been seen as a pre-jordan based on his scoring prowess? I mean 4 straight seasons of over 30ppg shooting on over 55% fg. Hell that's arguably better efficiency than jordan himself.

[basketball royalty]

[quote="Waterford]
What you think about the 08 Celts, the 11 Heat and Bulls?

I think that period of weak defense is much shorter than you believe, it was that adjusting period right after the league placed more emphasis on freeing up the game.

I'd say from 04-05-06-07

since then the defenses are picking back up
2008 Celts are statistically a top 3 defense EVER, they absolutely RAPED LeBRAWN in the 08 ECF[/quote]


Never said there were no good defenses now a days but basketball was far more physical back in the 90's. You also had far more rim protectors than you do now. Big old school centers. Now you have PFs playing C and much more running and gunning and it is far easier for perimeter players to get good shots off because they can't be touched.