The OFFICIAL rookie impressions thread pt.III

[Cro_Ruption]

wizenheimer brings up a pretty valid point

[willbcocks]

why are you asking those question after taking a single sentence out of a much longer post.

I explicitly explained what I meant by responsibility and pressure, but of course, my explanation wouldn't set the table for your set of questions if you didn't eliminate all the context I had in my post. My terms were not "vague" because I explained what I meant by them. Your edit is what created the vagueness.

Sorry--I don't like quoting long posts because it makes threads more difficult to read. Also, the numbers and analysis in your original quote were useful to the conversation, unlike the two words you used at the end to summarize, which is why I singled out those terms. Responsibility and pressure are vague terms no matter how you spin them.

Who has the most responsibility on defense? Who has a greater leadership role in the lockerroom? Who plays on a team with the most continuity? Which team has the least veteran leadership? Who has the ball in his hands at the end of the game?

Your definition of responsibility was about isos, assists, and assisted baskets. If we applied that to the wizards, chuckster jordan crawford was the guy with the most responsibility on the team this year. Being able to do those things has value, sure, but does it have a value beyond being the guy who is constantly moving without the ball to create an open shot (Beal), running the defense (Davis), or being the focal point on offense without any other stars on the team (Waiters recently)?

And FYI, Wall's played like utter crap this year, sadly. Beal's been better when he's off the floor. His recent uptick is likely due to maturity on the floor, as it began before Wall came back.

[orangeparka]

^I think it's clear Beal will be a much better player than Lillard, period.

But Lillard is the clear ROY. If the award started counting in 2013 yeah Beal would win it, but you can't just discount the first couple months of the season like that.

[willbcocks]

^I think it's clear Beal will be a much better player than Lillard, period.

But Lillard is the clear ROY. If the award started counting in 2013 yeah Beal would win it, but you can't just discount the first couple months of the season like that.

If you're referencing my post, I'm not saying Beal will be better one day or that Lillard won't be rookie of the year. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of Rookies who have faced a lot of pressure and responsibility this year, and that playing the position of point guard shouldn't add difficulty points to one's score like certain routines would to a diver's or gymnast's score.

[T-Blazin1995]

If you're referencing my post, I'm not saying Beal will be better one day or that Lillard won't be rookie of the year. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of Rookies who have faced a lot of pressure and responsibility this year, and that playing the position of point guard shouldn't add difficulty points to one's score like certain routines would to a diver's or gymnast's score.

I feel you ignored Wiz's post. How is running an offense not more responsibility than playing a 2 guard? Or being aggressively doubled routinely not more pressure? Not discrediting anything beal has done he has been great, but he hasn't had the same responsibility or pressure as lillard and if your saying point guard=shooting guard in terms of pressure and responsibility you are incorrect to say the least.

[T-Blazin1995]

^I think it's clear Beal will be a much better player than Lillard, period.

But Lillard is the clear ROY. If the award started counting in 2013 yeah Beal would win it, but you can't just discount the first couple months of the season like that.

Although it is likely that Beal could have a better career as a player than lillard no one knows what could happen in the future. Lillard could turn into Chris Paul and Beal could turn into randy foye you just never know.

Oh btw even if the award started in 2013 lillard would still be leading the ROTY race, just by a smaller margin

[deepeeenn]

Lillard with 24 points (9/18 FG), 6 rebounds, 4 assissts, 0 turnovers in the blazers win over the T-wolves tonight.

For as athletic as he is I would have thought Meyers Leonard would be a better shot blocker. Hopefully with more minutes he will be able to increase his defensive awareness a bit.

Agreed. He isn't really a rim defender just yet. He goes to the perimeter and defends quite a bit, getting him out of position. I'm a bit unsure why he does this, but I'm assuming the coach wants him to???

Another strong game from Leonard tonight, he looks more comfortable out there, that's for sure. However Portland really needs that defensive centre, and Leonard looks to be more of an offensive one, so hopefully he can improve his shot-blocking.

Leonard's paint defense really needs work. He likes to come out and hassle people around the perimeter and then promptly gets lost on the defensive rotation, which is usually when he commits a dumb foul. There are many times where he looks completely lost and unsure.
The guy is improving however, and Claver is playing much better too since being moved to the 4 spot, much to my surprise.
Freeland is still terrible.

Leonard was (like Anthony Davis) a guard before he had a massive growth spurt. He probably never had learned to play post defense until late in his pre-NBA years. If you notice in his game, he has most of the call signs of a guard. Perimeter oriented offense, though nice shooting stroke, desire to defend off switches, lack of boxing out fundamentals, low desire to fight for position when rebounding, non-existent shot blocking awareness. He doesn't use his athleticism the way you'd like him to. He has a lot to learn... I don't think he'll ever get it on defense. At least, not as a shot blocker.

[Bskey]

^I think it's clear Beal will be a much better player than Lillard, period.

But Lillard is the clear ROY. If the award started counting in 2013 yeah Beal would win it, but you can't just discount the first couple months of the season like that.

Clear how?

[Shem]

But Lillard has had a better season...so far...while having more responsibility and facing more pressure

Responsibility and pressure are very vague terms. Does more pressure/responsibility come from more minutes played? From having worse teammates? From having the ball in one's hands more (if this is the case, pgs would always win)? From making more game-winning shots?

Did you even read Wiz's post, or just the bottom. I'll break it down and show you why I believe you just read the bottom because not only is that the only thing you quoted, but you through in some queries that were answered if you just read the post.

Responsibility and pressure are very vague terms. Does more pressure/responsibility come from more minutes played? From having worse teammates?

Lillard plays such heavy minutes because Portland's bench is historically bad. And that's being kind. Having watched him all season, I don't think there's any doubt that Lillard is playing more then his optimal average minutes. And my take is that is costing him efficiency, as well as production rates

I think it's also a case there's a specific disadvantage for Lillard to be compared to players like Beal and Waiters in that, unlike Lillard, they are not consistently responsible for running the team's offense. Portland relies heavily on Lillard to get them into their offense and initiate plays for other players. This is costing Lillard some efficiency and production

I'm also pretty certain that neither Beal or Waiters (or Davis or Drummond) have been the season-long focus of all opposing defenses. Lillard is constantly doubled to try and force the ball out of his hands. Lillard has been able to accomplish what he has against significantly higher defensive resistance then the other rookies have faced

Your question was answered if you had just read the whole post.

Beal is the Wizards leading scorer

Lillard is Portland's 2nd leading scoring at 18.5 PPG behind LaMarcus Aldridge. Meanwhile you're bragging that Beal is the Wizards' leading scorer even though it's only 14.2 PPG. That's not high for a leading scorer.

and leads the team in minutes per game.

31.8 MPG isn't something to brag about.

He has a buzzer-beating game winner

So does Lillard:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKKYUlDyXRg[/youtube]



EDIT:
Then as I go along I see this:

Sorry--I don't like quoting long posts because it makes threads more difficult to read.

Okay, so just confirmed what I thought about when reading Wiz's post.

[Shem]

^I think it's clear Beal will be a much better player than Lillard, period.

But Lillard is the clear ROY. If the award started counting in 2013 yeah Beal would win it, but you can't just discount the first couple months of the season like that.

So we'll remove November and December.

Lillard:

January: 17.6 PPG, 6.8 APG
February: 19.8 PPG, 6.2 APG

Beal:

January: 15.1 PPG, 2.5 APG
February: 17.5 PPG, 2.2 APG

Tell me again how Beal has outplayed Lillard in January and February where as the voters who vote those these awards would like Beal better?

[orangeparka]

^I think it's clear Beal will be a much better player than Lillard, period.

But Lillard is the clear ROY. If the award started counting in 2013 yeah Beal would win it, but you can't just discount the first couple months of the season like that.

So we'll remove November and December.

Lillard:

January: 17.6 PPG, 6.8 APG
February: 19.8 PPG, 6.2 APG

Beal:

January: 15.1 PPG, 2.5 APG
February: 17.5 PPG, 2.2 APG

Tell me again how Beal has outplayed Lillard in January and February where as the voters who vote those these awards would like Beal better?

Relax, no need to get super-sensitive bro.

For some reason I thought Beal's numbers were higher (at least matched with Lillard's ppg), but that must've been coz of the per36 numbers I was looking at. His shooting percentages were much higher (Lillard hovering around 41-42 for the two months I believe), and his team record is much better (14-14 vs 11-18).

Plus factor in that POR has a #1 option/top big man and all-star in LMA (not to mention Batum/Wes/Hickson) while Beal doesn't really have anyone close to his PPG and is carrying a bigger scoring load. He's really leading that team, so saying Beal would be ROY for 2013 onwards has a very good case.

Of course, I did think Beal was averaging more points though.

[willbcocks]

If you're referencing my post, I'm not saying Beal will be better one day or that Lillard won't be rookie of the year. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of Rookies who have faced a lot of pressure and responsibility this year, and that playing the position of point guard shouldn't add difficulty points to one's score like certain routines would to a diver's or gymnast's score.

You are being ignorant how is running an offense not more responsibility than playing a 2 guard? Or being aggressively doubled routinely not more pressure? Not discrediting anything beal has done he has been great, but he hasn't had the same responsibility or pressure as lillard and if your saying point guard=shooting guard in terms of pressure and responsibility you are incorrect to say the least.

I think that it's not necessarily the case. For example, Reggie Miller, Rip Hamilton, and Ray Allen are all two guards who you could say had a lot of "responsibility" and "pressure" (whatever those terms might mean on the court), yet didn't dominate the ball. Tyson Chandler and Joakim Noah aren't drawing double teams but are huge game changers.

We were recently having this discussion on the Wiz board, and some were pointing out Beal's below average ability at iso situations. I take the position that iso situations aren't the be all end all of basketball, and shots taken in the flow of the game are often made at far higher percentages. If a player has the ability to move off the ball, to be in the right spot at the right time, and to be a deadeye shooter, he can play just as important role in a team's offensive success as any point guard.

[willbcocks]

Sorry--I don't like quoting long posts because it makes threads more difficult to read.

Okay, so just confirmed what I thought about when reading Wiz's post.

I said I don't like quoting long posts, not reading them. I try to edit my posts so that people don't have to scroll through volumes of text to see what's being written. If I over-edit, it's not done with the intention to discredit the original poster.

For your other points, I don't really have anything else to add to the discussion without repeating myself.

[GhostsOfGil]

This thread is getting ridiculous. Willbcock's post have been completely civil.. Whether you agree with him or not, theres no need to call him ignorant. This is why there are a ton of fans who come in here and make comments about Blazers fans.

[Bo Outlaw]

Moe Harkless has, since the ASB, been on a bit of a tear. In his four games after the break:
15 pts, 6 boards vs. CHA
20 pts, 8 boards @ DAL
19 pts, 9 boards @ MEM
13 pts 5 boards vs. CLE
= Average of 16.8 ppg and 7.0 rpg on 49.2% FG%.



Also, just for fun:

Doug Collins Reportedly ‘Consumed’ With Tracking Moe Harkless

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2013/0 ... -harkless/

Why is nobody talking about this guy. This dude has been playing outstanding as of late.

[GhostsOfGil]

Harkless had a damn good month indeed. Unfortunately the Magic have played like garbage so that might have something to do with the lack of attention he's getting.

[Brapman]

The hyberbole is over the top on this thread regarding Beal and Waiters. Waiters has a 14.0 PER. Beal has a 13.84 PER. They are the 10th and 11th rated PER rookies in the league.

I like Beal a lot. Great team first do it all player. Waiters has the look of World B. Free to me - but he's definitely talented - but so was World B. Free. I'd take Beal in a second on the Pistons. Waiters, no freaking thank you right now.

Beal will, I believe, make multiple all-star games. Waiters? maybe there's an all-star game in his future, maybe several - but he's playing on a team with a ball hog in Irving, and on his own merits I'm not sure about whether I'd even want him on my team because of his hiddeous shot selection. For Waiters to get my vote, he's going to have to learn to play team BB. We'll see on him.

Finally, comparisons to Wade? Give me a break. Wade blows both of these guys away by a big margin. Wade's a first ballot HOF player. Beal and Waiters are talented, no doubt, but not Wade talented and come back to me in 10 years if anyone's going to argue that they've got Wade's ridiculous clutchness and killer mentaility.

[oikosnomos]

The hyberbole is over the top on this thread regarding Beal and Waiters. Waiters has a 14.0 PER. Beal has a 13.84 PER. They are the 10th and 11th rated PER rookies in the league.

Not sure what to get from this. Just mentioning PER...so you endorse Kyle O'Quinn, Patrick Beverly, Brian Roberts, Bernard James etc, over Beal and Waiters? I know Drummond has the #1 PER. Is that the motivation?

I like Beal a lot. Great team first do it all player. Waiters has the look of World B. Free to me - but he's definitely talented - but so was World B. Free. I'd take Beal in a second on the Pistons. Waiters, no freaking thank you right now.

Do you mean Waiters has mentality of World B. Free? Or he just physically looks like him with receding hairline and all? Because as you said, World B. Free was very talented, so it seems like a case for Waiters. However, if you think Waiters is selfish gunner, just say so.

Beal will, I believe, make multiple all-star games. Waiters? maybe there's an all-star game in his future, maybe several - but he's playing on a team with a ball hog in Irving, and on his own merits I'm not sure about whether I'd even want him on my team because of his hiddeous shot selection. For Waiters to get my vote, he's going to have to learn to play team BB. We'll see on him.

Irving is a ballhog? I'm not going to say he is an elite passer or floor general but ballhog? He has 30% Assist percentage and his good for almost 6 assists a game, despite being one of the best scorers in the game. As for Waiters shot selection, in November and December, I would have agreed with it being hiddeous...January and February, it's different story. He just recently led the Cavs past the Bulls and Raps as the main assist man, which could be said shows his willingness to play team ball.

Finally, comparisons to Wade? Give me a break. Wade blows both of these guys away by a big margin. Wade's a first ballot HOF player. Beal and Waiters are talented, no doubt, but not Wade talented and come back to me in 10 years if anyone's going to argue that they've got Wade's ridiculous clutchness and killer mentaility.

Comparisons are fair. I think one person got kind of close to actually equating Waiters to Wade and no one even compared Beal to Wade. Most of what I read was that Waiters had a Wade like game and Beal had a Ray Allen type game. I think that is fair. Players can be like another player without being equal to their effectiveness and accomplishments.

[DCsOwn]

The hyberbole is over the top on this thread regarding Beal and Waiters. Waiters has a 14.0 PER. Beal has a 13.84 PER. They are the 10th and 11th rated PER rookies in the league.

Not sure what to get from this. Just mentioning PER...so you endorse Kyle O'Quinn, Patrick Beverly, Brian Roberts, Bernard James etc, over Beal and Waiters? I know Drummond has the #1 PER. Is that the motivation?

I like Beal a lot. Great team first do it all player. Waiters has the look of World B. Free to me - but he's definitely talented - but so was World B. Free. I'd take Beal in a second on the Pistons. Waiters, no freaking thank you right now.

Do you mean Waiters has mentality of World B. Free? Or he just physically looks like him with receding hairline and all? Because as you said, World B. Free was very talented, so it seems like a case for Waiters. However, if you think Waiters is selfish gunner, just say so.

Beal will, I believe, make multiple all-star games. Waiters? maybe there's an all-star game in his future, maybe several - but he's playing on a team with a ball hog in Irving, and on his own merits I'm not sure about whether I'd even want him on my team because of his hiddeous shot selection. For Waiters to get my vote, he's going to have to learn to play team BB. We'll see on him.

Irving is a ballhog? I'm not going to say he is an elite passer or floor general but ballhog? He has 30% Assist percentage and his good for almost 6 assists a game, despite being one of the best scorers in the game. As for Waiters shot selection, in November and December, I would have agreed with it being hiddeous...January and February, it's different story. He just recently led the Cavs past the Bulls and Raps as the main assist man, which could be said shows his willingness to play team ball.

Finally, comparisons to Wade? Give me a break. Wade blows both of these guys away by a big margin. Wade's a first ballot HOF player. Beal and Waiters are talented, no doubt, but not Wade talented and come back to me in 10 years if anyone's going to argue that they've got Wade's ridiculous clutchness and killer mentaility.

Comparisons are fair. I think one person got kind of close to actually equating Waiters to Wade and no one even compared Beal to Wade. Most of what I read was that Waiters had a Wade like game and Beal had a Ray Allen type game. I think that is fair. Players can be like another player without being equal to their effectiveness and accomplishments.

A couple GMs actually compared Beal directly to Ray Allen before the draft:

Before the Wizards chose Beal, two NBA general managers told me he reminded them of future Hall of Famer Ray Allen — and not the somewhat limited version we see now; the young Allen, who was as apt to dunk on an opponent as launch a three-pointer.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/sports/wiza ... ory_1.html

[ComboGuardCity]

Well, I'm sure GMs would come to a pretty close consensus on this prospect ranking:
1. Davis
2. Drummond
3. Beal
4. Lillard
5. MKG
6. Waiters
7. Shved
8. Barnes
9. Harkless
10. Nicholson