2000-2004: Tracy Mcgrady or Kobe Bryant?

[Ginobili]

03 : T-Mac (not even close this year)

This is an absurd statement.

They were almost equal, with a slight advantage in scoring for Mcgrady and a slight advantage in defense for Kobe.

[RayBan-Sematra]

03 : T-Mac (not even close this year)

This is an absurd statement.

They were almost equal, with a slight advantage in scoring for Mcgrady and a slight advantage in defense for Kobe.

Kobe wasn't really better defensively that year.
This is coming from a guy who watched both of them play that year.

Not that the stat necessarily means anything but Kobe only had a 1pt edge in DRTG that year despite playing on a better defensive team.
In the playoffs Kobe was very bad defensively and posted an 110 DRTG. T-Mac's playoff DRTG was 105.

Those stats aside they were very similar defensively.
Kobe's defense in 2003 got worse as he started forcefully grabbing a larger offensive role.

Offensively T-Mac was significantly better in the regular season despite facing tougher defensive teams and far more defensive attention and the gap between them on that end in the playoffs was enormous.

Kobe did have an excellent regular season in 2003 but he was clearly below T-Mac just as he was clearly below his own teammate Shaq.

Plus (raw box scores aside) Kobe's poor playoffs that year should really forcefully take him out of the discussion with the above names.
I know his injury was a huge part of that decline but we can't just ignore that.

[The Infamous1]

Kobe was better then Mac at every aspect of the game. Defensively it wasnt even close

[nikomCH]

I'd give T-Mac the edge in 04 because Kobe was atrocious that year (although T-Mac didn't do much better), but every other year I'm taking Kobe. I'll take Kobe Bryant

In what world is

24.0 PPG
5.5 RPG
5.1 APG
1.7 SPG
+3.4 TS%
10.8 TOV%
23.7 PER

and solid defense considered "atrocious?"

He missed quite a few games to injury and had those horrible legal troubles looming over his head and he still performed very well. The playoffs were a different story, he shot the ball terribly but in the RS he had some really amazing performances.

[therealbig3]

I may have responded in this thread already (it's an oldie), but I'd take T-Mac in 02 and 03. I'd take Kobe in 01. 04 is a toss-up.

If we extend it to the next year (05), I'd take T-Mac.

I think T-Mac gets underrated like crazy...Kobe never separated himself from T-Mac until after 05, when T-Mac broke down from injuries, and coincidentally, Kobe peaked as a player.

[microfib4thewin]

I'd probably give a slight edge to T-Mac because what Kobe did in 04 was simply inexcusable. He was partly responsible for breaking up his partnership with Shaq and his off court trouble was a deterrent to himself as well as the rest of his team. If we don't bring up how disastrous the Lakers ended up because of what Kobe did then I would consider them equals.

[RayBan-Sematra]

I'd probably give a slight edge to T-Mac because what Kobe did in 04 was simply inexcusable.

The only thing he did that really bothered me that year was when he publicly attacked Shaq using JG.
It was just extremely stupid, disrespectful and inappropriate.

I mean where did he get off criticizing Shaq as a leader when he had just led the team to 3 Championships.

Where did he get off questioning Shaq's work ethic when he (O'neal) had vastly outperformed him the year before in the playoffs against the Spurs and was far less responsible for their teams failure to advance.

And Shaq's personal financial issues (contract extension) was frankly none of his business even if he truly did feel lobbying for an extension at that point was inappropriate (debatable).

They were obviously both at fault but that is the one thing Kobe did back then that had me shaking my head.

[EArl]

Kobe. One of those season Tmac did better than Kobe.

[wutevahung]

I'd probably give a slight edge to T-Mac because what Kobe did in 04 was simply inexcusable. He was partly responsible for breaking up his partnership with Shaq and his off court trouble was a deterrent to himself as well as the rest of his team. If we don't bring up how disastrous the Lakers ended up because of what Kobe did then I would consider them equals.

I understand the concept you are describing, but maybe we should take a step back.

if i remember correctly, fox and malone were injured so that created huge mismatches for pistons on offense. Pistons then went on to the finals next year and battled spurs to 7th game. so it was not one of those scenarios when "if kobe wasn't so 'insert narrative here' they could have easily won" It was more like "if kobe played better,their chance of winning could've improved a little bit, but given the state of health in some of their starters, it was still unlikely" Remember, it was a 4-1 series with the one vicory being lucked out by Kobe, which is actually closer to 4-0 than 4-2, and it is hard to say one player can sway the whole series that much.

and although the expectation were high, lakers did make it to the finals by beating some good teams. and if the dilators ending you are talking about is the break up of the team, it seemed inevitable given the circumstances, but this is not the topic in discussion right now.

anyway

I see most of posters agree that Kobe was better 01 and 02, but people argue about 03 and 04. When two players' performances are this close, I would give the edge to the one that has the mental advantage, and by that I mean a stronger will.

You can think Mcgrady was better, which i can see an argument for, but let's say it's game 7 of a PS game in any of these years, and you were given the choice to pick between them two, it would have been hard to pick against kobe given his already established reputations in playoff.

[Asianiac_24]

I'd give T-Mac the edge in 04 because Kobe was atrocious that year (although T-Mac didn't do much better), but every other year I'm taking Kobe. I'll take Kobe Bryant

In what world is

24.0 PPG
5.5 RPG
5.1 APG
1.7 SPG
+3.4 TS%
10.8 TOV%
23.7 PER

and solid defense considered "atrocious?"

He missed quite a few games to injury and had those horrible legal troubles looming over his head and he still performed very well. The playoffs were a different story, he shot the ball terribly but in the RS he had some really amazing performances.

For Kobe its pretty bad, especially his playoffs.

[BattleTested]

Kobe was very clearly better in 2000 and 2001 (well I guess it wasn't as clear in 2001 but when the playoffs came around, it was pretty definitive.)

2002 might've been a tossup. They put up similar stats, but Kobe was still an elite perimeter defender at this point, and he was putting up his numbers on a championship team, so I've got to give it to him.

2003 was a tie as far as I'm concerned. Both had amazing regular seasons. Absolutely amazing. Really besides 09 I've never seen two swingmen play as well in the same season. From Kobe's 9 straight 40 point games to McGrady's dragging a terrible Magic team to the playoffs and taking the Pistons to 7. I don't know how you can choose this season.

2004 is pretty easy. No matter how poorly you think Kobe played, he was not the #1 option on a team that lost 20 straight games. T-Mac's team lost 3/4 of its games, that year You just can't be considered an elite player when that happens. Kobe's team lost 48 games in 05 and I don't consider him an elite player that year even though he was going 28/6/6. I know RealGM likes to act like wins don't matter when comparing players but at some point you've got to take into account that fact that one guy is putting up numbers on a Finals team and the other guy's doing it on a team that's 40 games under .500.

[JordansBulls]

Who in the world dug this thread back up from the dead?

[Kobeskillz]

2000 was the year that Mcgrady really started to embrace himself as a superstar in this league, although Kobe dominated the Playoffs that season, in 2000-2001, its nearly impossible to not go with him.

Yeah, sorry, I read 2000 as 99-00, so that's what I was talking about.

His offensive skills were slightly better than Kobe`s

Hmmm, not quite. He was shooting especially well that year and he decided to actually seek contact that year as well, which helped. Kobe was still a better shooter and ball-handler, but McGrady clicked that season, although I'll give you that Mac was (at least then) the clearly superior post player.

Appart from scoring, I think T-Mac was the slightly superior passer also, Kobe worked into the triangle-offense but always thought prime Mcgrady was a more skilled and talented passer.

I'd mind how you word that, if only because it's more a semantic issue than a skill issue. T-Mac was a lot more willing to pass, whereas Kobe a lot more likely to shoot, but from a technical standpoint, there was nothing that McGrady did in-game that Kobe couldn't as a passer.

2004 - Mcgrady

How do you account for his abominable efficiency in 04, Earl? How does that factor in?

Well Mcgrady really did have a drop in his efficiency in 2004, I guess he progressively got tired of carring that atrocious Orlando Magic team, day in and day out. Plus, his body started to show signs of having problems and losing explosiveness, something that was completely confirmed once he was traded to Houston.

But Kobe had a pretty mediocre year, easily worse than T-Mac`s. He averaged 24 ppg on .043 % efficiency, thats not the Kobe everybody was expecting, he really had a sub-par season, and then he was really bad in the Finals that year, factoring all that, I cant say Kobe was better than Mcgrady in 2004.

The most interesting year of the comparison is clearly 2002/2003, both are at their absolute peak, and its really impossible to go wrong with either of them. The thing about passing, well, im not saying Kobe couldnt pass as well as Mcgrady, but the second one had a superior basketball IQ and a better selection, that alone should count when we`re talking about passing capacity and all. Thats why im giving Mcgrady the slight edge here on passing.

Considering 04 it's Kobe's worst year and considering that's the same year as his rape trial the. Its easy to see why 04 stands out from his career.

[Ginobili]

03 : T-Mac (not even close this year)

This is an absurd statement.

They were almost equal, with a slight advantage in scoring for Mcgrady and a slight advantage in defense for Kobe.

Kobe wasn't really better defensively that year.
This is coming from a guy who watched both of them play that year.

Not that the stat necessarily means anything but Kobe only had a 1pt edge in DRTG that year despite playing on a better defensive team.
In the playoffs Kobe was very bad defensively and posted an 110 DRTG. T-Mac's playoff DRTG was 105.

Those stats aside they were very similar defensively.
Kobe's defense in 2003 got worse as he started forcefully grabbing a larger offensive role.

Offensively T-Mac was significantly better in the regular season despite facing tougher defensive teams and far more defensive attention and the gap between them on that end in the playoffs was enormous.

Kobe did have an excellent regular season in 2003 but he was clearly below T-Mac just as he was clearly below his own teammate Shaq.

Plus (raw box scores aside) Kobe's poor playoffs that year should really forcefully take him out of the discussion with the above names.
I know his injury was a huge part of that decline but we can't just ignore that.

Kobe's defense in 2003 got worse as he started forcefully grabbing a larger offensive role.

This applies to Mcgrady also, and actually, to a far bigger extent.

Kobe did have an excellent regular season in 2003 but he was clearly below T-Mac just as he was clearly below his own teammate Shaq.

No, no he wasnt.

And LOL at the Shaq part, the 2003 Lakers were Kobe`s team pretty clearly.

Offensively T-Mac was significantly better in the regular season despite facing tougher defensive teams and far more defensive attention and the gap between them on that end in the playoffs was enormous.

You should do your home-work and inform yourself, or at least try to be objective for once instead of finding ways to diminish the guy you hate.

In 2003 the WC was as tough as they come, with great defensive teams like the Spurs, the Blazers, Kings were also good (just because a team is awesome offensively doesnt mean they aint defensively)...etc.

On the other hand, Mcgrady was playing in the weakest era of the Eastern Conference ever, with very weak teams.

Also, im not that sure about Mcgrady having more defensive attention since those Lakers played without Shaq a good amount of games and Kobe was basicly playing with crap, and you could make an argument that Kobe`s supporting cast without Shaq is worse than Mcgrady`s that year.

[90sAllDecade]

I expected to pick Kobe right away but this was tougher than I expected.

Healthy McGrady is just as good or better than Kobe in that time span statistically and did quite well in the playoffs but didn't advance with lesser talented rosters (he did have Yao healthy although young for one run in 04-05), but Kobe was always mentally stronger imo.

I'll give the slight edge to Kobe for now but it could be a wash or go either way upon deeper analysis. I could be wrong.

[An Unbiased Fan]

People keep posting certain years when Kobe's playoff efficiency dipped, without referencing the defenses he faced, or that he got hurt in 2000.

I keep pointing this out, but never get an answer. The Magic won 41 games before they got Tmac. throughout his years in Orlando, he never improved their record much at all. This despite playing in a god awful East. Tmac played crappy defense once he left Toronto, and this excuse that he was never favorite to get out of the 1st round is wrong. What about 2002? The Magic had a higher SRS than the Hornets, and Baron was banged up.

[ManOfSteel]

People keep posting certain years when Kobe's playoff efficiency dipped, without referencing the defenses he faced, or that he got hurt in 2000.

I keep pointing this out, but never get an answer. The Magic won 41 games before they got Tmac. throughout his years in Orlando, he never improved their record much at all. This despite playing in a god awful East. Tmac played crappy defense once he left Toronto, and this excuse that he was never favorite to get out of the 1st round is wrong. What about 2002? The Magic had a higher SRS than the Hornets, and Baron was banged up.

I keep pointing this out, but never get an answer. The Lakers won 34 games in their 1st year w/o Shaq. Throughout next 2 years in, he never improved their record much at all.Despite not having such a bad team as T-mac had in Orlando. Kobe played crappy defense past 2002-2003, and this excuse that he was never favorite to get out of the 1st round is right, because he NEEDED MORE HELP(How much help do you need Kobe goddamnit).

Like seriously, you are penalizing what T-Mac did with that crappy team he had, when infact Bryant with better team was doing just as bad as T-Mac.A 1st round virgin and not making a playoff one year.
Nice try there buddy, come again.

And yes I know that this is not a 2000-2004 Kobe, and I am sorry that i'm a bit offtopic,but just wanted to make a parallel TO WHY T-MAC DIDNT DO ANYTHING IN HIS PRIME AND KOBE DID(yea switch Kobe and T-mac those years and u got the same results, 3-4 rings for Lakers, and Kobe still a 1st round virgin or not even making the playoffs.

[BattleTested]

BTW, this comparison would be much more fair to McGrady if we used 2001-2005. He has a good chance at actually winning that comparison.

[An Unbiased Fan]

People keep posting certain years when Kobe's playoff efficiency dipped, without referencing the defenses he faced, or that he got hurt in 2000.

I keep pointing this out, but never get an answer. The Magic won 41 games before they got Tmac. throughout his years in Orlando, he never improved their record much at all. This despite playing in a god awful East. Tmac played crappy defense once he left Toronto, and this excuse that he was never favorite to get out of the 1st round is wrong. What about 2002? The Magic had a higher SRS than the Hornets, and Baron was banged up.

I keep pointing this out, but never get an answer. The Lakers won 34 games in their 1st year w/o Shaq. Throughout next 2 years in, he never improved their record much at all.Despite not having such a bad team as T-mac had in Orlando. Kobe played crappy defense past 2002-2003, and this excuse that he was never favorite to get out of the 1st round is right, because he NEEDED MORE HELP(How much help do you need Kobe goddamnit).

Like seriously, you are penalizing what T-Mac did with that crappy team he had, when infact Bryant with better team was doing just as bad as T-Mac.A 1st round virgin and not making a playoff one year.
Nice try there buddy, come again.

And yes I know that this is not a 2000-2004 Kobe, and I am sorry that i'm a bit offtopic,but just wanted to make a parallel TO WHY T-MAC DIDNT DO ANYTHING IN HIS PRIME AND KOBE DID(yea switch Kobe and T-mac those years and u got the same results, 3-4 rings for Lakers, and Kobe still a 1st round virgin or not even making the playoffs.

That was a whole different team. Shaq wasn't the only one who didn't comeback, lol. Did you forget Malone, Payton, Fox, and so on? Also, both Kobe & Odom were hurt in 2005. Put those 06-07 teams in the 00-04 Eastern Conference, and you can bet the Lakers would have made some runs. Hell both AI & Vince(once Tmac left), made runs in 2001. I wouldn't take Tmac over Vince, much less Kobe.

Kobe went to 3 Finals, 2 titles without Shaq. Tmac bolts to Houston to play with Yao, and.....still no 2nd round. The only year they make it...Tmac is hurt.

[RayBan-Sematra]

This applies to Mcgrady also, and actually, to a far bigger extent.

It applies to both of them.

And LOL at the Shaq part, the 2003 Lakers were Kobe`s team pretty clearly.

Revisionist history.
The Laker's were always Shaq's team when he was there.

He was the undisputed leader basically every year except maybe for 2004 where Kobe sort of ostracized himself and the team chemistry became very hostile and less cohesive as a result.

Phil Jackson alluded to this towards the end of the season as did Kobe who said he was tired of being a sidekick following the 2004 breakup.

2003 was one of Shaq's best years.
He was certainly much better then Kobe that year especially when you take into account the massive gulf in the quality of their playoff runs.

In 2003 the WC was as tough as they come, with great defensive teams like the Spurs, the Blazers, Kings were also good (just because a team is awesome offensively doesnt mean they aint defensively)...etc.

On the other hand, Mcgrady was playing in the weakest era of the Eastern Conference ever, with very weak teams.

Detroit had a better perimeter defense then the Spurs and T-Mac didn't have the luxury of having the best offensive player in the league (Shaq) beside him drawing most of the opposing teams defensive attention.

Kobe went to 2 titles without Shaq.

Yeah with Peak Gasol, Prime Odom and some excellent roleplayers.
Oh... also had Phil Jackson.

Kobe with bad casts missed the playoffs and never made it out of the first round.
Hardly more impressive then what T-Mac accomplished in the early 00's with worse casts.