Is hand checking overrated?

[ComboGuardCity]

Hand Checking is called "excellent pressure defense" when its done by Elite teams do it.

Tony Allen, Lebron, Avery Bradley hand check all the time.

[Elden Payton]

The 1994 change of the hand-checking rules in response to the Knicks-Rockets finals was the first major change as the Pistons had eroded the previous '78 rule change. The 2004 change where no contact with perimeter players came in was the biggest. The Pistons were able to hold opponents under 85 points per game with that kind of pressure defence where they would body guards up and down the floor. After that it became the parade to the free throw line. It also made the game a point guard's game and that position had a resurgence in scoring.

The inability to pressure a guard up the floor has opened up the game considerably. It has also devalued post play versus perimeter play. The removal of elbow checking has produced this modern era.

Anyone who doesn't think that a defender being able to put their hands on your has a marked effect on your ability to penetrate, get by them, change directions etc. has never played serious ball. Period. It also helps the defender guide the player into preferred areas/shotblockers and gives his teammates an extra second or so to provide help defense.

I hate saying this but end/

[lorak]

^
If so what's the difference between what happened from '95 to '04 and hand checking Conley is doing (I posted video above)?

It's also funny how the highest league average ORTGs occur after first hand checking rule change in 1978:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... stats.html
So actually Jordan played during 9 out of 10 the best offensive season in league history. It never was easier to score than then.

[Jordan23Forever]

^
If so what's the difference between what happened from '95 to '04 and hand checking Conley is doing (I posted video above)?

It's also funny how the highest league average ORTGs occur after first hand checking rule change in 1978:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... stats.html
So actually Jordan played during 9 out of 10 the best offensive season in league history. It never was easier to score than then.

Is this a joke? Your Conley video shows basically ZERO handchecking as compared to what occurred pre-'05. The only time he puts his hands on Dragic is when he turns his back halfway to Conley. You've always been allowed to do that when a guy has his side/back to you, and still are by and large. What has changed is when a player is facing the defender and makes their move, the defender is not allowed to put a hand on him or body him up, and basically has to step aside and usher him by.

[mysticbb]

What has changed is when a player is facing the defender and makes their move, the defender is not allowed to put a hand on him or body him up, and basically has to step aside and usher him by.

Well, he wasn't allowed to do that before 2005 as well, just that it was hardly called, because the referees had no reference frame. The big change was the interpretation difference, when they made it clear that contact in that fashion which leads to a change in the motion of the offensive player is called. The defensive players were called for that early in 2004/05 a lot, and then they essentially stopped doing it at all.

And that is seen in the increase in fg%, ts% and efg% for perimeter and wing players starting in 2004/05. All 3 elements are increasing in the same fashion up until 2009 when they reached the plateau, which stayed so far with the small drop last season due to the lockout season.

It is obviously when watching games, it is showing up in the numbers as well. And some individual pictures or scenes will not change the overall average difference.

[lorak]

And that is seen in the increase in fg%, ts% and efg% for perimeter and wing players starting in 2004/05. All 3 elements are increasing in the same fashion up until 2009 when they reached the plateau, which stayed so far with the small drop last season due to the lockout season.

It is obviously when watching games, it is showing up in the numbers as well. And some individual pictures or scenes will not change the overall average difference.

Why you think hand checking rule is the only reason? There were also other changes and maybe because of them numbers are different?
I really watched a lot of games pre 2004 and post 2004 past two days and focused solely on hand checking and there's not big difference in what defenders do. For example Tay in the finals was doing exactly the same on Kobe, what now Lin or Conley are doing.

Also mysticbb, I would like to know what your opinion is about late80s and early 90s, when ORTGs were the best ever despite theoretically stronger hand checking rule? Was it because whole NBA was so good, or maybe defenses (despite hand checking) overall weren't too good?

[mysticbb]

Why you think hand checking rule is the only reason? There were also other changes and maybe because of them numbers are different?

What other changes effected the scoring for wing and perimeter players?

For example Tay in the finals was doing exactly the same on Kobe, what now Lin or Conley are doing.

No, he wasn't. Watch closely, Prince is actually changing the direction of Bryant when they face up, while Lin or Conley barely touching the players without any change of the motion of the player. When the offensive player is changing the motion after the defending player is touching him, it is called right now. And to assure you, that barely happens.
It may look at the first impression not different, but in the end it very different and leads to a different kind of freedom for the perimeter players.

Also mysticbb, I would like to know what your opinion is about late80s and early 90s, when ORTGs were the best ever despite theoretically stronger hand checking rule? Was it because whole NBA was so good, or maybe defenses (despite hand checking) overall weren't too good?

Inside players had a higher efficiency. Check out the changes here in order to understand the higher ORtg during the late 80's/early 90's. Wing and perimeter players before the 3pt change had a lower efficiency during that time than they have now.

[prophet_of_rage]

The offensive ratings in the 80s and 90s were so high because the players were actually able to shoot. That's why teams handchecked harder and harder. You're talking about the end of the Showtime Lakers, the run TMC era, the beginning of the Jordan era, Dominique's Hawks, the run and gun Nuggets, the end of Bird's Celtics. The teams were very good and there were illegal defence calls so you could clear out a side and attack. Hand checking was the response to the speed and skill of the offence. You didn't have as sophisticated help defences then so you just grabbed the ballhandler's hip and shoved him where you wanted him to go. He then put his elbow into your hip and shoved you where he wanted you to be. You could hit a guy with a two handed shove on his ball handling shoulder and there was no call.

hand checking is not overrated whatsoever. If you could handcheck in today's defence nobody would score over 90 points. Imagine a combination of a hand-checking zone. Your point guard would have to be a 220 lbs bull.

[ceremony816]

Anyone who doesn't think that a defender being able to put their hands on your has a marked effect on your ability to penetrate, get by them, change directions etc. has never played serious ball. Period. It also helps the defender guide the player into preferred areas/shotblockers and gives his teammates an extra second or so to provide help defense.

Totally agree. Even if you aren't able to control them you can still "feel" where they are moving.

[lorak]

Why you think hand checking rule is the only reason? There were also other changes and maybe because of them numbers are different?

What other changes effected the scoring for wing and perimeter players?

Defensive 3s and blocking fouls.

Inside players had a higher efficiency. Check out the changes here in order to understand the higher ORtg during the late 80's/early 90's. Wing and perimeter players before the 3pt change had a lower efficiency during that time than they have now.

But why inside players had higher efficiency? I mean, I obviously know there were more good offensive bigs, but also more good defensive, right?

[Frosty]

Handchecking isn't just putting your hands on a guy. It's impeding his movement through the use of your hands. I can touch you and not slow you down or I can steer you and push you off your preferred line. That's what was going on. You beat your man baseline and he pushes you further out or slows you down enough that defenders have time to react. Take a play like Kobe's dunk last night, a slight delay in him getting to the rim or push further to his right and it goes from a clear path dunk to the defender getting there in time for a block. It was literally that close.

Anyone that's tried to drive against a guy that was truly hand checking knows what an advantage it is. It's much harder to stay in front of a guy when you can't use your hands.

You can't ignore the fact the rulemakers stated they were putting this rule in to make it easier on slashers. Or the record number of 40 point games, TS% increases for pretty much every high scoring slasher even guys that were past their prime.

[GreenHat]

Anyone who doesn't think that a defender being able to put their hands on your has a marked effect on your ability to penetrate, get by them, change directions etc. has never played serious ball. Period. It also helps the defender guide the player into preferred areas/shotblockers and gives his teammates an extra second or so to provide help defense.

So then you'll agree that the defense of players from that era, including Jordan, is overrated because:

"Anyone who doesn't think that a defender being able to put their hands on your has a marked effect on your ability to penetrate, get by them, change directions etc. has never played serious ball."

Today's players don't have that luxury and get called for more ticky tack fouls.

If you're going to make the argument that a rule helps modern offenses significantly then consequently the lack of that rule must have helped older defenses significantly. Or is this another one of those every rule impossibly only makes the modern players have it easier in every facet even the ones that contradict each other?

[spectacularmove]

nope, but I do think the 3 second defensive rule is underrated

[Frosty]

Anyone who doesn't think that a defender being able to put their hands on your has a marked effect on your ability to penetrate, get by them, change directions etc. has never played serious ball. Period. It also helps the defender guide the player into preferred areas/shotblockers and gives his teammates an extra second or so to provide help defense.

So then you'll agree that the defense of players from that era, including Jordan, is overrated because:

"Anyone who doesn't think that a defender being able to put their hands on your has a marked effect on your ability to penetrate, get by them, change directions etc. has never played serious ball."

Today's players don't have that luxury and get called for more ticky tack fouls.

If you're going to make the argument that a rule helps modern offenses significantly then consequently the lack of that rule must have helped older defenses significantly. Or is this another one of those every rule impossibly only makes the modern players have it easier in every facet even the ones that contradict each other?

Defense has changed, it's virtually impossible to be a lock down perimeter defender anymore. It's all about swarming help defense. It doesn't mean Jordan is any less of a defender, he was an exceptional help defender as well. And put more effort into that end then pretty much any star perimeter defender I've seen.

Is your entire thread around trying to downplay Jordan?

[prophet_of_rage]

Anyone who doesn't think that a defender being able to put their hands on your has a marked effect on your ability to penetrate, get by them, change directions etc. has never played serious ball. Period. It also helps the defender guide the player into preferred areas/shotblockers and gives his teammates an extra second or so to provide help defense.

So then you'll agree that the defense of players from that era, including Jordan, is overrated because:

"Anyone who doesn't think that a defender being able to put their hands on your has a marked effect on your ability to penetrate, get by them, change directions etc. has never played serious ball."

Today's players don't have that luxury and get called for more ticky tack fouls.

If you're going to make the argument that a rule helps modern offenses significantly then consequently the lack of that rule must have helped older defenses significantly. Or is this another one of those every rule impossibly only makes the modern players have it easier in every facet even the ones that contradict each other?

The defenders from that era are not overrated. It's not like they didn't call any fouls and offensive players didn't have advantages too (Jordan got to fight through double teams with three steps, Ewing got four steps on his turnaround jumper) The defenders from this era are simply hamstrung. The game is designed to let offensive players score and there isn't much that can be done one-on-one any more. The game has moved to a much more offensive-oriented creation. Nowadays holding a team to 95 points is considered "good defence" in the 90s that was a high score. Now it is team schemes thatcreate good defence. You can't really guard any perimeter player one-on-one without help. But Pippen and a lot of the other 90s defenders have said that they couldn't play intheir brand of defence in this era. See Pippen's mauling of Magic Johnson for the Bulls first championship. The game has changed to make it easier for offence and tougher for defence. The previous rules didn't make it easier for defence and tougher for offence. It just was what what it was. They changed to create more offence.

If anything the defenders of today are undderrated for being able to hold oppponents in this day and age.

[lorak]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulr_m4MpV50[/youtube]

[tidho]

Eliminating the hand check is what made the game what it is today....that's not a compliment.

It made guys like LeBron completely unguardable....which is exactly what it was meant to do. What LeBron, Rose, or Westbrook are capable of today used to be known as 'video game stats', now they're just normal, lol.

[Teen Girl Squad]

Eliminating the hand check is what made the game what it is today....that's not a compliment.

It made guys like LeBron completely unguardable....which is exactly what it was meant to do. What LeBron, Rose, or Westbrook are capable of today used to be known as 'video game stats', now they're just normal, lol.

This is the the type of "analysis" that puts me into the "handchecking was overrated" group. Outside of Lebron (arguably best athlete we've ever seen), Durant, and Kobe (though he's a bit more inefficient in general), players in the past put up much more "video-gamey" stats than current players are. Defense is much more sophisticated now than it was 20 years ago (I want to projectile vomit every time I watch 80's basketball from a "defense was better back then" perspective"). Lack of handchecking is definitely a hindrance on perimeter defense but old-school hand-checking + zone defense + modern defensive improvements = borderline unwatchable basketball. People just like to glorify the past because they can't/don't want to remember the faults.

In a way the pro-handchecking group reminds me of college basketball fans. They talk about how the game is better because there are more "fundamentals" but really its because most college teams aimlessly pass the ball for long stretches (inefficient ball movement) and often settle for long jumpers. Its really poorer basketball on the surface seems more team oriented because you SEE everybody touching the ball. Handchecking seems to be uber defense because it was 1v1 and even the untrained eye could SEE the player playing defense where as modern zone defenses will often allow seemingly wide-open shots at times (to bad shooters at low efficiency areas).

This isn't to say today's defenses area all great and fundamentally sound (that would be asinine) but that many fans have to readjust their concepts of what good offense/defense/fundamentals look like today rather than what they used to be (to be frank a lot of what was considered good fundamentals was really just tradition rather than objective study of basketball, like the art of the mid-range jumper before the 3 point line killed its value).

[Beardman]

I'd rather all the illegal defenses come back.

[Brenice]

The bottom line is that you CAN NOT TOUCH a ballhandler facing you up dribbling. I repeat, you CAN NOT TOUCH him. In the post, you can use a forearm to pressure the guy posting up. Those type of contact that are not being allowed are not overrated. What assists the defense is the ability to play limited forms of zone defense. Can you imagine Jordan and Pippen playing their whole careers defending under today's rules?