Haberstroh (PER Diem): Grizzlies better without Rudy Gay?

Phenomenologist · Post #1 » by **Phenomenologist** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:43 pm

It's insider, so I can't post the whole article, but here's the link and a particularly salient snippet:

By sending Gay and his woefully inefficient play packing, the Grizzlies saw an opportunity to put the ball in better hands. Marc Gasol, Zach Randolph and Mike Conley can score, but oftentimes they were shut out as Gay flung up errant jumper after errant jumper. (Sorry, Toronto fans.)

The cleansing has yielded a much healthier offense without Gay, scoring 105.3 points per 100 trips down the floor since the trade. That's up from a pre-trade rating of 100.1 points per 100 possessions, which was 22nd in the NBA at the time.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/PerDiem-130314/nba-memphis-grizzlies-better-rudy-gay

dTox · Post #2 » by **dTox** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:46 pm

He wasn't wearing his goggles! Eegads man when will people realize he didn't have his goggles on?!?

mademan · Post #3 » by **mademan** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:49 pm

Colangelo is terrible.

Side note, has anybody ever made a Colangelo troll pic?

Phenomenologist · Post #4 » by **Phenomenologist** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:54 pm

The problem has only been exacerbated in Toronto -- he's shooting more often and somehow even less effectively. He needs to tone it down and defer to better players.

Again, this is just one of the many problems with miscasting a secondary offensive player as a big star/franchise player. You'd think BC would have learned with Bargnani. Alas ...

Indeed · Post #5 » by **Indeed** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:12 pm

Prince has been filling in for Gay.
However, their bench is weak, and they rely on Bayless for their bench scoring. Once Bayless is shut down, it can be a tough for them to find scoring from other players.

dTox · Post #6 » by **dTox** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:13 pm

Indeed wrote:Prince has been filling in for Gay.
However, their bench is weak, and they rely on Bayless for their bench scoring. Once Bayless is shut down, it can be a tough for them to find scoring from other players.

The point is that they seem to be much better without Gay, and it seems so by their efficiency on paper and how they are rolling over their opponents lately, which includes winning against the Clippers last night.

WalterCronkite · Post #7 » by **WalterCronkite** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:22 pm

Obviously. Why would the Grizz do the trade if they didn't think they would be better? Gay isn't a team player AT ALL. He is a negative as we are finding out.

Trilogy · Post #8 » by **Trilogy** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:36 pm

The Grizz didn't even really get the right type of short term player back in Prince but it's still working out for them very well.

He doesn't shoot much so he's passing it to better options which Gay wasn't doing but they desperately need someone who can shoot the 3 and he doesn't do it at all. He slotted in there nicely from a defensive/rebounding perspective though.

Really, if Memphis can find a guy who can really nail the 3 to fill that spot while playing acceptable defence they'd become an absolutely deadly team.

Speed · Post #9 » by **Speed** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:43 pm

I guess we could have traded Jose for Prince and Daye and still have Davis.....

Raps in 4 · Post #10 » by **Raps in 4** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:45 pm

Phenomenologist wrote:The problem has only been exacerbated in Toronto -- he's shooting more often and somehow even less effectively. He needs to tone it down and defer to better players.

Better players? He's supposed to be our franchise player!

Raps in 4 · Post #11 » by **Raps in 4** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:46 pm

Trilogy wrote:The Grizz didn't even really get the right type of short term player back in Prince but it's still working out for them very well.

He doesn't shoot much so he's passing it to better options which Gay wasn't doing but they desperately need someone who can shoot the 3 and he doesn't do it at all. He slotted in there nicely from a defensive/rebounding perspective though.

Really, if Memphis can find a guy who can really nail the 3 to fill that spot while playing acceptable defence they'd become an absolutely deadly team.

Imagine how deadly they would be if they didn't waste a second overall pick.

Phenomenologist · Post #12 » by **Phenomenologist** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:54 pm

I'm sorry, I couldn't pass up the symmetry / punning opportunities...

UssjTrunks wrote:
Phenomenologist wrote:The problem has only been exacerbated in Toronto -- he's shooting more often and somehow even less effectively. He needs to tone it down and defer to better players.

Better players? He's supposed to be our franchise player!

Phenomenologist wrote:Again, this is just one of the many problems with miscasting a secondary offensive player as a big star/franchise player. You'd think BC would have learned with Bargnani. Alas ...

Marvin Martian · Post #13 » by **Marvin Martian** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:55 pm

WalterCronkite wrote:Obviously. Why would the Grizz do the trade if they didn't think they would be better? Gay isn't a team player AT ALL. He is a negative as we are finding out.

It seems that people don't quite know how to evaluate players.

Gay +4.5
Amir +4.3
Lowry +1.5

Everyone else is a net negative.

Truthrising · Post #14 » by **Truthrising** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:05 pm

Remember when posters were complaining we should've drafted Gay instead, well now we have him. SMH.

dagger · Post #15 » by **dagger** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:06 pm

Actually, if this was entirely true, they would have dealt Rudy two years ago. For his money and current efficiency, he is poor value. Let's assume this isn't a revelation to anyone. In Memphis he was taking shots out of the hands of post players who score at a higher level of efficiency than jump shooters. Here, it's not like we have anyone except Amir who scores at will in the paint, and even Amir is not a back to the basket player like Gasol or a pound through bodies guy like Zach Randolph. Here's it's the lack of a structure. To make Gay more efficient, you need a system with more plays, and a coach calling them. Or we need a really good post player, and they do not grow on trees.

goodjoey · Post #16 » by **goodjoey** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:07 pm

I can't stand threads like this, I get the point you are trying to make, but from someone as hyper-pessimistic as you, it comes off as - "I told you so".

Yes the Grizz are better WITHOUT Gay. But the Raps are better WITH Gay....whats your point?

True_Shooting · Post #17 » by **True_Shooting** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:12 pm

Trilogy wrote:The Grizz didn't even really get the right type of short term player back in Prince but it's still working out for them very well.

He doesn't shoot much so he's passing it to better options which Gay wasn't doing but they desperately need someone who can shoot the 3 and he doesn't do it at all. He slotted in there nicely from a defensive/rebounding perspective though.

Really, if Memphis can find a guy who can really nail the 3 to fill that spot while playing acceptable defence they'd become an absolutely deadly team.

Prince is a career 37.0% three point shooter. And he's shooting 38.9% from three since joining the Grizzlies. Those are very good numbers.

Phenomenologist · Post #18 » by **Phenomenologist** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:19 pm

goodjoey wrote:I can't stand threads like this, I get the point you are trying to make, but from someone as hyper-pessimistic as you, it comes off as - "I told you so".

Yes the Grizz are better WITHOUT Gay. But the Raps are better WITH Gay....whats your point?

For one, it's not at all clear the latter is true, whereas the former is almost without doubt true.

(Also, I never actually made the point you're attributing to me; I simply posted an article that I thought was relevant to the raptors basketball forum.)

For another, not being optimistic is not the same thing as being pessimistic. There is a middle ground. That the middle ground in this case involves so much doom and gloom shouldn't come as a surprise -- it's a pretty fair reflection of our actual results over the last half-decade.

Marvin Martian · Post #19 » by **Marvin Martian** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:21 pm

dagger wrote:Actually, if this was entirely true, they would have dealt Rudy two years ago. For his money and current efficiency, he is poor value. Let's assume this isn't a revelation to anyone. In Memphis he was taking shots out of the hands of post players who score at a higher level of efficiency than jump shooters. Here, it's not like we have anyone except Amir who scores at will in the paint, and even Amir is not a back to the basket player like Gasol or a pound through bodies guy like Zach Randolph. Here's it's the lack of a structure. To make Gay more efficient, you need a system with more plays, and a coach calling them. Or we need a really good post player, and they do not grow on trees.

Gay is scoring 48% so far in post up situations and the Raptors overall are the 7th ranked post up team in the league. But somehow they still need a "post player".

SHFT · Post #20 » by **SHFT** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:46 pm

WalterCronkite wrote:Obviously. Why would the Grizz do the trade if they didn't think they would be better? Gay isn't a team player AT ALL. He is a negative as we are finding out.

He has been coming in and out of an injury and still adjusting to this team. He could definitely take better shots but he was playing well after he was traded I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt until next season.