"It's Mo Williams, Stupid"

[StocktonShorts]

Jazz record with Mo: 13-18

Record without Mo: 21-15

I'm sure there are some advanced stats that explain why Mo is so terrible for this team, but I think the W-L record speaks for itself.

[StocktonShorts]

The Jazz are 20-12 when Tinsley starts.

Earl started the remaining 4 games and the Jazz are 1-3 in those.

I love our coach.

[HolyToledo12]

So what does he do? Bench Mo? Bench Mo and Al? That would lead to a divided locker room is what Locke and Big Al supporters would say and I say...Who gives a F*ck! Start the core four now! Inform the media that Big Al has a quad injury and Mo is coming off the bench. Jazz start these guys and if Millsap complains then he has a quad injury too thus providing less damage to their contract years.

I was made fun of by Locke at beggining of the year when I said the Jazz would have a better contract if Millsap and Big Al simply did not play and I think it is proving that I was right. Like Rudy Gay, addition by subtraction!!

Start for rest of year:
PG Burks
SG Foye
C Kanter
PF Favors
SF Hayward

Bench players that Play Millsap (if he wants), Mo (if he wants), and Marvin (Carrol maybe if Marvin sucks or Millsap doesnt want to play)

[slcjosh]

So what does he do? Bench Mo? Bench Mo and Al? That would lead to a divided locker room is what Locke and Big Al supporters would say and I say...Who gives a F*ck! Start the core four now! Inform the media that Big Al has a quad injury and Mo is coming off the bench. Jazz start these guys and if Millsap complains then he has a quad injury too thus providing less damage to their contract years.

I was made fun of by Locke at beggining of the year when I said the Jazz would have a better contract if Millsap and Big Al simply did not play and I think it is proving that I was right. Like Rudy Gay, addition by subtraction!!

Start for rest of year:
PG Burks
SG Foye
C Kanter
PF Favors
SF Hayward

Bench players that Play Millsap (if he wants), Mo (if he wants), and Marvin (Carrol maybe if Marvin sucks or Millsap doesnt want to play)

Why start burks? He is not a point guard.

[StocktonShorts]

Mo should be coming off the bench. He's a scoring combo guard who does little else. Those types of players have traditionally found success in the NBA as 6th men on good teams. I'm thinking of Jason Terry or Jamal Crawford.

He doesn't know how to get all of his teammates involved; he can't run a half-court offense. He's just NOT a point guard.

[babyjax13]

I said it before Mo went out, Tinsley is our best option as a starting point guard. This was, without a doubt, the worst offseason I have seen this organization have in a looong time.

[KDBG]

Jazz record with Mo: 13-18

Record without Mo: 21-15

I'm sure there are some advanced stats that explain why Mo is so terrible for this team, but I think the W-L record speaks for itself.

This is evidence of why the blame should be on not only Ty, but the FO as a whole. Yes, Ty should be gone next year. But the FO is responsible of putting together a team that is just horribly built. I'm so glad we have the core 4. Cause if the core 4 didn't exist, I wouldn't see any resemblance of light at the end of the tunnel. As of right now, we are no different than half the teams in the league who play one-on-one chucker ball. I remember the days of feeling spoiled because no matter how unathletic, or how untalented the Jazz were, I could always expect to have players that played in an effective system, and players that worked their a**** off.

At this point, all of my faith goes into Dennis to infuse the Jazz with leaders, and rebuild that culture of work ethic, grit, and teamwork that we sorely miss. We need a Brian Shaw, Brad Stevens, or even a Stan Van Gundy at coach. We need to find a way to draft a Marcus Smart, or Trey Burke. We need to find more role players like DeMarre. Big changes are needed.

[Inigo Montoya]

I'm sure there are some advanced stats that explain why Mo is so terrible for this team

yes, the "advanced stat" is that god created over 6 billion people with functioning eyes and a half working brain.

So what does he do? Bench Mo?

either that, or use mo differently, something that he needed to do at the start of the season. take away mo's decision making. let him cross half court and dump it inside, and then make teams pay when they close on big al. i know people don't like this style of basketball, but it got us to the playoffs last year with harris who is not as good of a shooter as mo. mo's shooting is his only strength, and it is taken away when he is running the show and asked to create for himself and others because he is not good at that and the result is turnovers, and difficult shots for others and himself - which negates his good shooting. let others (tinsley, hayward, burks, al) create offense for others.

i thought that was how we'll play when we signed mo. but corbin wanted to run (?) for some reason. harris is a much better ball handler than mo, he is also faster and turns the ball over less. he is a better facilitator and defender as well. if corbin was so hell bent on running, we should have kept harris. mo can't run a team. corbin should utilize his strengths instead of negating them. make him a shooter and not much more. it's like he tried to let foye make plays early in the year, which failed miserably. since then foye functioned almost exclusively as a shooter. the same had to happen with mo. it didn't and the result is a dysfunctional offense on top of a poor defense.

I said it before Mo went out, Tinsley is our best option as a starting point guard. This was, without a doubt, the worst offseason I have seen this organization have in a looong time.

it don't have a problem with the FO moves in this offseason. it's just that there seem to be a disconnect between them and the coaching staff. i think this roster could be 6th in the west if it was used correctly, but it is not. the offseason moves seemed to bring players to reinforce the style of play of last season and answer the shortcomings we had - especially shooting. but the way this roster was used throughout this ENTIRE SEASON is just erroneous and wrong. this is a big part of why i'm critical of corbin. he doesn't use the pieces he has correctly.

[red4hf]

I have to say, I thought Mo was exacty what the team needed in the off-season...... A PG who can push the ball and shoot when necessary......

Man, oh man, how wrong I was...... He has been god awful........

I'm sure there are people in the FO thinking the same thing....... But, that's not an excuse for benching Tinsley and keep playing Williams..... That's entirely on Jerry Junior.......

[reapaman]

Indigo ... Mo has always played like that which is why I was so adamently against this move over the summer (along with it being a typical medicore move). You can't make a player change his style especially at Mo's age. This is 100% on the FO because he doesn't fit this team and Corbin is trying to make it work but you just can't unless you bench him and that may not be a good career move for him whether we think it helps the team or not. You see that Corbin didn't "run" last year because Harris got out the way mostly and let the offense flow while Mo doesn't allow that to happen. Thats who he is, he has always dribbled too much even in cleveland and when you dribble too much then you are bound to turn the ball over especially when your playmaking skills aren't that good. The FO shouldve known that before they brought him over here.

I just hope all the "fans" and the FO learned a valuable lesson. Just because a player may be more talented and improves a weakness you have does not mean they will make your team better. Not all shooters are equal. Its not only that they are a good shooter but its also about how do they get that shot and Mo oftens gets that shot after destroying any flow the offense had.

[Inigo Montoya]

Indigo ...

i guess i am the gordan haywood of the forum. so be it. here we go:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIOpdz_Sa_M[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JGp7Meg42U[/youtube]

Mo has always played like that which is why I was so adamently against this move over the summer (along with it being a typical medicore move).

he wasn't like that when he played next to lebron. because he played off lebron and not the other way around. we'll touch on that later.

You can't make a player change his style especially at Mo's age.

yes you can. it's called coaching. look at kobe this year - he's facilitating and passing like crazy. look at nash - all his career he was the main ball handler who had the ball in his hands, and this year he's playing off the ball and he's almost entirely a spot up shooter. the lakers are too dysfunctional for it to be a good example? well, they are ahead of us in the playoff race. last year devin harris had to change the way he played his entire career, and after a miserable start he managed to do it and finished the year strong. joe johnson was mostly a spot up shooter in phoenix, and played significantly different in atlanta. jj redick was mostly a shooter in college and early on in orlando, now he's a pretty good playmaker. millsap was mostly a rebounder in college and early on in the NBA, now he's a well rounded offensive player who knocks mid range jumpers and takes players off the dribble (sometimes). he was asked to be an energy guy and a rebounder early with the jazz, yet in the last 3 years he's playing a completely different game. dirk nowitzki used to run around and dribble on the perimeter like a guard early on. now he's a post up player who leaves playmaking to his guards.

This is 100% on the FO because he doesn't fit this team and Corbin is trying to make it work but you just can't unless you bench him and that may not be a good career move for him whether we think it helps the team or not.

you don't have to bench him, you don't have to entirely change how he plays the game. you just need to change his role and define it. mo is not a stupid guy - he's a pro and he can follow instructions, and if corbin tells him to not go charging full steam ahead all the time - he won't do it. if corbin tells him to cross half court and play off the attention defenses are giving to big al - he'll do it. the FO's job is to bring pieces that fit. i think the pieces on the jazz fit - they are just not used properly. it's like getting a puzzle - you will only complete it if you arrange the pieces correctly, but you know they do fit. you just need to find out how to arrange them. and having mo together with foye as starters is just silliness. both the defensive and offensive issues of this team are magnified because of corbin's misuse of his players and their skills, as well as him favoring the vets. he didn't mix and match well. at all.

You see that Corbin didn't "run" last year because Harris got out the way mostly and let the offense flow while Mo doesn't allow that to happen. Thats who he is, he has always dribbled too much even in cleveland and when you dribble too much then you are bound to turn the ball over especially when your playmaking skills aren't that good. The FO shouldve known that before they brought him over here.

corbin didn't run last year because corbin didn't recognize the strengths of the players on the roster, just like this season, and because the didn't have a pre season and a full training camp to work with the team on what he wanted. harris was BEGGING to do it and ended up running all by himself by season's end. this season he did have a full pre season and training camp to work on those issues, but not the personnel and PGs to do it with. yet he chose to put a lot of emphasis on running this season, and it was a big topic in the pre season coverage.

I just hope all the "fans" and the FO learned a valuable lesson. Just because a player may be more talented and improves a weakness you have does not mean they will make your team better. Not all shooters are equal. Its not only that they are a good shooter but its also about how do they get that shot and Mo oftens gets that shot after destroying any flow the offense had.

that's why i'm criticizing corbin. i don't think it's the FO's fault. they saw how we played last year, the style of play and personnel, and saw we managed to get to the playoffs. so they made moves based on that style of play - they brought players who will fit that style better and address the weaknesses of that team. but corbin chose to change things. change the style, and shift the focus of the offense more to the guard play of mo rather than al. and when mo got injured he reverted to last year's style for lack of choice, but with two OFFENSIVELY AWFUL PGs who can't shoot or pose any threat scoring-wise.

[StocktonShorts]

Indigo ...

i guess i am the gordan haywood of the forum. so be it. here we go:

[StocktonShorts]

I think it's both the front office's fault AND Ty Corbin's fault:

1) The front office brought Mo Williams in to be the starting point guard

2) Ty Corbin has put the ball in Mo's hands and relied on him for play-making and decision-making

Both of these are poor decisions IMO. I guess I'm more critical of Ty because he can correct his mistakes from game-to-game by taking the ball out of Mo's hands or using him differently.

The best thing the front office can do at this point to fix their mistake is to not re-sign Mo.

[reapaman]

Wait lets make one thing clear inigo (you already know I can't spell), Kobe only did that facillitating thing for like one or two weeks then he went back to chucking. Redick, millsap and Johnson situations don't apply here and Harris problem early on was he was trying to play his way into basketball shape which is a big no-no in a shorten season. Harris played the same role in utah that he played in Dallas, so that was nothing new to him.

Mo did the same thing he's doing now in cleveland, the reason it worked then is because Lebron would start controlling the ball in the crucial moments in the game where Mo is now going on his turnover sprees. Its simple, if someone else is taking time away from Mo going dribble-dribble then its less time for MO to do stupid stuff. If Hayward for example would do the same then it wouldn't as bothersome but thats something hayward has to get more assertive about and initiate himself. Its kinda hard to determine when to take Mo out because crucial moments are not always in the 4th quarter so thats why its always better to have an assertive good ball controlling wing to take over when needed. Burks is assertive but I trust him in crucial moments less than Mo.

And I still don't understand what you mean by we are "running". We are still playing at the same below average tempo we played at last year. Williams is suppose to be playing the same role Harris did last year just better. All Mo has to do is bring the ball up the court without giving it to the other team, then dump the ball into one of our many big men and get out the way like harris did. Like I said in another thread, the only people "running" are Mo and Burks.

[Inigo Montoya]

Wait lets make one thing clear inigo (you already know I can't spell)

you can spell my name however you like, i'm just messing with you. i guess we're in that place now .
i have to say indigo kinda grows on me anyway. it's all good.

Kobe only did that facillitating thing for like one or two weeks then he went back to chucking. Redick, millsap and Johnson situations don't apply here and Harris problem early on was he was trying to play his way into basketball shape which is a big no-no in a shorten season. Harris played the same role in utah that he played in Dallas, so that was nothing new to him.

really? harris was a non penetrating, shooting from outside player in dallas? i remember him as a penetrating PG. with the jazz he he tried to fit into the system which is east to west instead of north to south like he used to. he also started shooting from 3 more and played off al, which resulted in the best 3pt% of his career.
and if kobe's facilitating only took place for two weeks, how come he's a hair short of averaging a career best in assists while playing less minutes?

Mo did the same thing he's doing now in cleveland, the reason it worked then is because Lebron would start controlling the ball in the crucial moments in the game where Mo is now going on his turnover sprees. If Hayward for example would do the same then it wouldn't as bothersome but thats something hayward has to get more assertive about and initiate himself. Its kinda hard to determine when to take Mo out because crucial moments are not always in the 4th quarter so thats why its always better to have an assertive good ball controlling wing to take over when needed. Burks is assertive but I trust him in crucial moments less than Mo.

it seems like mike brown is corbin's mentor, sans defense. in cleveland, it was "make something happen, lebron" and "give the ball to lebron and get out of the way". mo wasn't nearly as ball dominant as he is with the jazz, and he was mostly a finisher from outside, after a pass from lebron or from someone else who got the pass from lebron. he wasn't the decision maker then. he shouldn't be the decision maker now. it doesn't mean corbin should bench him. it just means he should instruct him to play differently. it seem like maybe he finally has:

The other discussion was how to get off to faster starts. Coach Tyrone Corbin took some time with Mo Williams after shoot around in a 1 on 1 conversation to try to discuss with him what he could do to help the team get started.

http://weareutahjazz.com/lockedonjazz/

he just needs to leave shot creation and decision making for others. he should finish from outside with his good shooting.

And I still don't understand what you mean by we are "running". We are still playing at the same below average tempo we played at last year. Williams is suppose to be playing the same role Harris did last year just better.

i mean that during pre season corbin put heavy emphasis on pushing the ball, speeding up the pace, and get out and run. we are not doing that because he relied on mo to do it and he got injured early, so the jazz fell back to the same pace and style of play of last year. also, corbin put the wrong players on the floor to execute this type of style, since mo is such a bad passer and decision maker, and foye isn't better, not to mention that you need stops on defense in order to get up and run, and you're not getting that with a back court of mo+foye and al in the middle.

All Mo has to do is bring the ball up the court without giving it to the other team, then dump the ball into one of our many big men and get out the way like harris did.

that's exactly what i'm saying. and that doesn't require "make a player change his style especially at Mo's age". that is 100% doable, and 100% coaching. do you really think that mo can't do that if corbin told him? i absolutely think mo can do that. my pet turtle can do that. without training. even seals can do it, and even they have better ball handling skills than mo. AND THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE HANDS.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msAgjamnYek[/youtube]

so i have to assume that the reason he's not doing that is because corbin doesn't want him to and didn't tell him to, and that's entirely his fault.

[FJS]

Iñigo, Iñigo... what a fantastic letter "ñ"

España (spain), año (year), coño (better do not translate)

[Inigo Montoya]

Iñigo, Iñigo... what a fantastic letter "ñ"

España (spain), año (year), coño (better do not translate)

i'm not looking up "coño". i learned my lesson from the whole hedgehogging fiasco.

[SoCalJazzFan]

I have read that Corbin would like the team to run or play more of an uptempo offense. In fact, I've read that is why he has played Watson over Tinsley at times, including recently.

What I don't understand is how you have that philosophy when your main offensive threat is the lead legged Al Jefferson. Maybe the thought is to fast break until forced into a halfcourt offense, and then play Big Al iso ball- I'm not really sure. I'm not sure the PG or team really gets it either.

Mo does not work well with the Al iso, in my opinion, either as he refuses to dump it into Al early in the clock and sit back on the opposite side of the court or it isn't in his natural playing style to do so, and it completely negates Mo's strengths, other than the occassional pass back out for a long distance shot which hasn't happened as frequently as we would have assumed, as Foye seems to get most of those shots, which hasn't been a good thing for the past month.

I be would be interested to see how the team responds to Mo's style when Al is not on the floor, which isn't very often. Mo could work pretty well for a mobile, cutting team (Hayward, Marvin, Burks all fit this, Favors and Kanter less so) as I think that he would try to penetrate more or be a more willing/quick passer to a cutter, although I don't think you could beat the ill advised early clock shots he often attempts out of him completely.

However, in my opinion, the combo of Mo, Al and Corbin hasn't worked very well at all.

[reapaman]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/jazz/55065924-87/jazz-corbin-utah-offense.html.csp

Well heres a article from before the season started on corbin's definition of pushing the pace. Basically he said it will be the same as last year but he wants more transition (sometimes refered to as "easy") baskets. No drastic changes. He said we will still be basically the same team as last year which was mainly a half court team. They will run the same offense that they did last year and Mo agreed, theres even quotes in the article saying that he was not gonna lead the offense differently that how it was before. This is why I know he didn't tell Mo to do what he's doing. He's just putting up with it. He may be fine with it but that doesn't mean that he wants him to play like that.

Its all right there, corbin saying he wasn't gonna change much at all and Mo agreeing. Dang you MO!!!

[StocktonShorts]

Mo does not work well with the Al iso, in my opinion, either as he refuses to dump it into Al early in the clock and sit back on the opposite side of the court

I've never understood why the Jazz have everyone vacate Al's side of the court when they dump the ball into him on the left block. My suspicion is they think it makes it harder to double him, but teams seem to double him any way and then there's no one in Al's cone of vision for him to pass to.