Official John Wall Appreciation Thread 2.0

[tontoz]

Pretty weak review if you ask me. Thats what I call a hack job.

I'm not saying Wall deserves max but I just posted his numbers against the top 16 PGs.

First of all your list was not the top 16 pgs.

Secondly Wall's numbers relative to those other guys do not show that he deserves significantly more than Holiday, Lawson and Curry, all of whom signed extensions last summer.

[hands11]

Pretty weak review if you ask me. Thats what I call a hack job.

I'm not saying Wall deserves max but I just posted his numbers against the top 16 PGs.

First of all your list was not the top 16 pgs.

Secondly Wall's numbers relative to those other guys do not show that he deserves significantly more than Holiday, Lawson and Curry, all of whom signed extensions last summer.

FIrst off, who's missing. Here is what I search by.

2012-13; is active; played G; requiring Minutes Per Game >= 30 and Assists Per Game >= 6.5
If your not dishing out at least 6.5 dimes a game, you aren't much of a PG, or you are a SG with the ball in your hands.

I see my 30 mins mark cut out Jose and Rubio. If I change it to 29 Rubio makes the list and then Wall isn't the worst eFG and TS of the group. Rubio is. As well as the worst ORtg

Secondly, I didn't say he did deserve more then them right now. So what's you point.

[nate33]

Pretty weak review if you ask me. Thats what I call a hack job.

I don't think it's weak at all. In fact, it's exactly what I've been saying about Wall. Going by his season averages to day, Wall isn't playing as well as Lawson, Rondo and Curry. It would be generous to pay him what those guys make (approximately $11-12M a year). It's a huge leap of faith to extend him at a max deal. Production-wise, he simply doesn't deserve it. He's really not even close.

Now that's going by his season averages to date. It's entirely possible that he continues to play like he has played over the last 6 games for the rest of the year, which would boost his season averages high enough to make it fair to compare him with the likes of Lawson, Rondo and Curry.

I also made the Bargnani comparison, albeit before Wall's recent surge. I said that a worst case scenario was that locking Wall into a max deal would look in retrospect roughly like Toronto's decision to extend Bargnani. I said the more likely scenario is that giving the max to Wall would be roughly like the decision to give the max to Kenyon Martin. Martin was never a star, but he was an above-average starter. A max deal was overpaying, but not in a crippling way. (Again, this is going by his numbers to date. Wall may improve before these decisions have to be made.)

[nate33]

Pretty weak review if you ask me. Thats what I call a hack job.

I'm not saying Wall deserves max but I just posted his numbers against the top 16 PGs.

First of all your list was not the top 16 pgs.

Secondly Wall's numbers relative to those other guys do not show that he deserves significantly more than Holiday, Lawson and Curry, all of whom signed extensions last summer.

FIrst off, who's missing. Here is what I search by.

2012-13; is active; played G; requiring Minutes Per Game >= 30 and Assists Per Game >= 6.5
If your not dishing out at least 6.5 dimes a game, you aren't much of a PG, or you are a SG with the ball in your hands.

You're missing Mike Conley, Jeremy Lin, Kemba Walker, Jose Calderon and Kyrie Irving. Derrick Rose is also missing because he hasn't played this season.

[tontoz]

Also missing Kyle Lowry.

His minutes and assist parameters are completely arbitrary.

It would be like me making a list of top 5 rookies and setting an arbitrary minutes limit of 20 which would exclude Drummond.

[hands11]

Pretty weak review if you ask me. Thats what I call a hack job.

I don't think it's weak at all. In fact, it's exactly what I've been saying about Wall. Going by his season averages to day, Wall isn't playing as well as Lawson, Rondo and Curry. It would be generous to pay him what those guys make (approximately $11-12M a year). It's a huge leap of faith to extend him at a max deal. Production-wise, he simply doesn't deserve it. He's really not even close.

Now that's going by his season averages to date. It's entirely possible that he continues to play like he has played over the last 6 games for the rest of the year, which would boost his season averages high enough to make it fair to compare him with the likes of Lawson, Rondo and Curry.

I also made the Bargnani comparison, albeit before Wall's recent surge. I said that a worst case scenario was that locking Wall into a max deal would look in retrospect roughly like Toronto's decision to extend Bargnani. I said the more likely scenario is that giving the max to Wall would be roughly like the decision to give the max to Kenyon Martin. Martin was never a star, but he was an above-average starter. A max deal was overpaying, but not in a crippling way. (Again, this is going by his numbers to date. Wall may improve before these decisions have to be made.)

Far enough. But my hack job comment wasn't about the max contract part. I started my post by saying Im not saying Wall desires max. I have never said he did. Actually I was a early supporter of not paying him more then 10/11M.

For me, I don't care for the Bargnani comparison. Wall is an athletic PG. Very different types of players.

Main point is, we need to let the season play out in order to better discover his value. He has taken a step in his form. Now we have to see if he can do it against better teams.

If he can, that means something. If he just reverts to poor shooting against the better teams, that will be a huge mark against him.

My evaluation based on his numbers was simply, he is a top defensive PG so if his shooting efficiency can continue like he has for March, he will volt up that list pretty quickly when you combine both sides of the game.

Top defender with above middle of the pack offense would rank him pretty high. Specially if you consider the trending part of his offense getting better.

[hands11]

Also missing Kyle Lowry.

His minutes and assist parameters are completely arbitrary.

It would be like me making a list of top 5 rookies and setting an arbitrary minutes limit of 20 which would exclude Drummond.

arbitrary

Starters minutes and an assist level worthy of a PG is not arbitrary.

I could lower the assist to 6.0 but man, thats pretty weak for a PG. I was looking for comps. I thought 6.5 was pretty Fing low when looking at comps for Wall who averages 7.5 assists.

[tontoz]

Also missing Kyle Lowry.

His minutes and assist parameters are completely arbitrary.

It would be like me making a list of top 5 rookies and setting an arbitrary minutes limit of 20 which would exclude Drummond.

arbitrary

Starters minutes and an assist level worth of a PG is not arbitrary.

I could lower the assist to 6.0 but man, thats pretty weak for a PG. I was looking for comps. I thought 6.5 was pretty Fing low when looking at comps for Wall who averages 7.5 assists.

Your arbitrary limits excluded a guy who made the All-Star team his second season. It also excludes two guys who played on the same team for much of the season and had to share minutes.

You can't even make up your mind what you are looking for. First you say they are the top 16 pgs and then you turn around and say you are looking for comps for Wall. So which is it?

[hands11]

Whatever. I'm not getting on one of your silly merry go rounds.

[DCZards]

You can't even make up your mind what you are looking for. First you say they are the top 16 pgs and then you turn around and say you are looking for comps for Wall. So which is it?

What is it? The Zards have a big, ultra-athletic player at the most important position on the court who is improving in both on-court skills and leadership. A young player who, if he learns to shoot, may become the best all around PG in the game. I'm going to do all I kind to keep that guy around.

I'm not saying Wall is worth the max, but I'm not about to base his value to my team and franchise on what other PGs, like Curry and Lawson, are getting paid.

[tontoz]

You can't even make up your mind what you are looking for. First you say they are the top 16 pgs and then you turn around and say you are looking for comps for Wall. So which is it?

What is it? The Zards have a big, ultra-athletic player at the most important position on the court who is improving in both on-court skills and leadership. A young player who, if he learns to shoot, may become the best all around PG in the game. I'm going to do all I kind to keep that guy around.

I'm not saying Wall is worth the max, but I'm not about to base his value to my team and franchise on what other PGs, like Curry and Lawson, are getting paid.

First of all when did the PG position become the most important position on the court? I must have missed the memo on that.

Secondly, that is how market pricing works, supply and demand. It makes no sense to pay a guy more than what similarly (or more) productive players get paid if you don't have to. If he isn't willing to accept the market rate then he can try to prove he is worth more next season.

[Dark Faze]

This was the situation I was hoping to see Wall in.

Where his teammates are injured/off their game and his jumpshot finally cools off.

He responded by playing the best half court game I think I've seen from him in a Wiz uniform..ran the PNR well, played at multiple speeds and ran a nasty PNR..

Game isn't over yet as I post this, but I'm starting to get excited.

[hands11]

Pretty weak review if you ask me. Thats what I call a hack job.

I'm not saying Wall deserves max but I just posted his numbers against the top 16 PGs.

He is at the top of the class as a defender and assist player. He doesn't mention his strengths. He only focuses on shooting.

Wall has been improving his shooting. Now he has to do it over a longer period and against better teams. He also have to improve his TOs. But we know that and he has shown progress in both.

That said, his PER is ranked 6th of the top 16 PG. His TS% is 11th. Thats not great but it doesn't such either. Its his eFG% that is dead last against those 16 and that is all about his 3 ball. He is 2nd to last in 3 ball % against those other 16 players. Guess who is last. Rondo.

The Rondo comparison has been made many times regarding Wall and I think that is pretty accurate. Only Wall isn't hated by his team like Rondo is. Wall has a better TS then Rondo but worse at eFG% .

Wall is .454 eFG
Rondo is .497

Rondo make 12M next year. Then 13M and he is 27. Wall is still only 22.

So for Wall, its all about getting to a FG% and an eFG% up about .500% and TS% in the .550% range.
Right now, he isn't a 3 ball shooter so he needs to be really efficient with his 2 ball and FTs.

The good news for Wall is that he has been shooting .522 FG% for March.

Tonight against the Lakers should be a good test.

I think we can count that as "test passed".

9-19 FG , 6-8 FTs (0-2 start), career high 16 assists, 6 rebounds, 3 steals, only 1 turnover, 2 fouls,
24 pts

And major clutch FTs down the stretch.

On the road. No Beal. No Okafor.

Onto the next game.

[miller31time]

I'm really impressed by the 1 turnover more than anything. His usage % had to be sky-high tonight. Having 1 turnover with 16 assists is just insanity.

[hands11]

I'm really impressed by the 1 turnover more than anything. His usage % had to be sky-high tonight. Having 1 turnover with 16 assists is just insanity.

Would that be

Wallsanity ?

.474 FG % Still needs to do better but as long as its over .446, it pulls his average up some more.

If he only hit that one 3 ball he shot he would have been 10-19 with 27 pts and his eFG would have leaped even more since his 3 pt% is still pulling it down.

[GhostsOfGil]

Not to be that guy.. but I really hope Wall's recent surge is a a product of hard work, not his contract negations.

Just sayin.

[SizzlinSimms]

The way Wall is playing is the way I think we all hoped and expected. Hopefully it will stay. Dude, has been on fire. His confidence is through the roof right now. He's still pretty young at 22. He's younger than Lilard by a couple months, who is going to win RotY. I think we are finally seeing John Wall turn that raw athletic potential into realism. His half court has improved immensely since his rookie season. He looks like a mini-King James with all those jump passes to the corner 3! He's finally converted on his layoffs instead of blowing those. In the past 2 weeks he is hitting jumpers! Wall's defense is great.

I personally think the most important factor that Wall is providing to the Wizards isn't listed in the box score. I can't imagine that it is a random coincidence that the Wizards are better than .500 since Wall has returned. I'm assuming his leadership, work ethic, or desire to win has played a large part in re-energizing the team since his return.

Hope Wall continues this great streak. Congrats on a career high 16 assists!

[DCZards]

I personally think the most important factor that Wall is providing to the Wizards isn't listed in the box score. I can't imagine that it is a random coincidence that the Wizards are better than .500 since Wall has returned. I'm assuming his leadership, work ethic, or desire to win has played a large part in re-energizing the team since his return.
!

It's hard to measure intangibles like the ones you point to. That's why measuring a player's value to your team by comparing his stats to similar players who play the same position is a mistake.

[DCZards]

Dub post.

[payitforward]

I personally think the most important factor that Wall is providing to the Wizards isn't listed in the box score. I can't imagine that it is a random coincidence that the Wizards are better than .500 since Wall has returned. I'm assuming his leadership, work ethic, or desire to win has played a large part in re-energizing the team since his return.
!

It's hard to measure intangibles like the ones you point to. That's why measuring a player's value to your team simply by comparing his stats to similar players who play the same position is a mistake.

I don't think that follows at all:

1. Numbers = wins. At the end of the game, they don't ask which team showed the most "leadership, work ethic, desire to win" etc. They look at the numbers on the scoreboard. The team w/ the bigger number is called "the winner." And stats produce numbers pure and simple.

2. John Wall's play has *certainly* contributed to wins over the last couple of weeks. He's producing outstanding numbers.

But, Nivek has shown that, no, he hasn't made Martell Webster a better shooter, and so forth. And I'm assuming no one thinks he's made Okafor a better rebounder?

Better players make you a better team. Wall is becoming a better player, which makes us a better team. "Better players" are players who produce better numbers.