Retro Player of the Year Project

[Kobe Bean]

Did Kobe win the POY those years? Lol that's a dumb argument. Of course LAL could still win when Kobe had bad games, we had Shaquille god damn O'Neal, the most dominant ever, faster than a speeding bullet etc

Look at LeBron's stats the last couple of games in that second round. He choked. Sucked. Cost his team the W's.

Kobe put up similar postseason stats and won the title. He had a better year. LeBron was the better player for 90% of that year. Key difference. Winning the title is the definition of having an amazing year, losing in the second round isn't.

Why was Kobe not POY in 06 then? Legendary regular season and similar postseason performance judging by his numbers.

[acrossthecourt]

Since this counts the playoffs, if you're going to win this without a title you'd better put up some seriously crazy numbers.

Guys with better teams go further into the playoffs, and it's hard to argue someone's had a better season if he lost in the second round because he didn't even play half the playoffs, even if it's through no fault of his own.

This is basically the TL;DR of why LeBron does not deserve the 10 award

His numbers were excellent. Not crazy or insane like in 2009. His team lost in the second round mainly because he choked.

Well I think LeBron should have won because he was the best player that year. He didn't have the best teammates, however, so he didn't make it farther in the playoffs.

[Kobe Bean]

I think LeBron should have won because he was the best player that year.

The bolded part is pretty much inarguable, you're right. But that's why the project is titled "Retro Player of the Year" and not "Retro Best Player of the Year".

Here's an example: Would you pick a dude like 03 McGrady for POY over 06 Wade, had their level of play coincided at the same time? McGrady was clearly a better player that year, despite Wade's finals, Wade's ring etc...it's just that Wade's year in terms of performance, success and their correlation was on another level.

[mysticbb]

The bolded part is pretty much inarguable, you're right. But that's why the project is titled "Retro Player of the Year" and not "Retro Best Player of the Year".

The issue is that different people have a different idea of what "Player of the Year" means. For me I picked the best player based on his possession impact combined with playing time. So, the choice for 2010 or 2009 was easily James for me. I didn't pick the "best player on the championship team" on multiple occasions.

[Striders]

I've said this time and time again. Of course, on the PC forum being anti-Kobe makes you knowledgeable about the game of basketball.

You're wrong, Kobe Bean. The project isn't 'give it to the best player on the title team'. It's 'the best player on the title team except Kobe'.

If you have such a low opinion on the integrity of posters here, what's the point in posting here anymore?

[Doctor MJ]

His numbers were excellent. Not crazy or insane like in 2009. His team lost in the second round mainly because he choked.

Your conclusion here is why you many, such as myself, disagree with you.

LeBron only had one game where he clearly seemed rattled, and in that game his team lost by 32 points. It's simply absurd to think that LeBron choking caused his team to get 33 points worse.

I won't deny that LeBron "choked" in the sense that he was clearly mentally distracted in that game, but there's a reason why he didn't choke in Game 1 or the the final Game but rather on a pivotal game like that one. Boston had just tied up the series in Game 4 by clearly outplaying Cleveland - and by playing excellently i might add. Game 5 was the game where it was simply a given that if Cleveland was the better team they'd kick it up a notch. Instead BOSTON kicked it up a notch and utterly overwhelmed Cleveland, and at that moment LeBron realizes that he probably can't win this series and he goes around daze (I really believe that up to that point he expected to re-sign with Cleveland).

It has to be to LeBron's credit that he showed up to the next game and gave his absolute all. That was the game with it all truly on the line, and LeBron went for 27/19/10 against an absolutely fierce defense. And of course, Boston still one handily.

At the moment it happened, we still didn't know what to make of the series, but the answer came soon enough: Boston had returned to form. They proceeded then to "upset" Orlando and basically play the Lakers to a draw (losing a tight Game 7 on the road is essentially losing based on a regular season tiebreaker). The Celtics by the time they were done with the playoffs had left no doubt that they were simply a better team than the Cavs could be, which made it crystal clear that LeBron's lost wasn't on his one game choke, it was simply that they played a better team.

You may disagree with this interpretation, but if you come back saying it's completely silly, you're just being a fool.

Now, I'll note that when we had the 2010 debate, it was fierce. There was not universal agreement. Some felt just as you did, but the rest of us had a valid point of view as well.

[tsherkin]

Let's just take a moment to take a peek at the 2010 Boston/Cleveland series in context:

Shaq: 13.5 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 23.4 mpg. 3 games with 10+ FGA, didn't play more than 28 minutes in any game that series, 3 games with 5 fouls. 56.7% TS.

That was his second-leading scorer that series.

Mo Williams: 13.3 ppg, 37.4 mpg, 51.7% TS

Third-leading scorer, next-biggest perimeter player for Lebron. Sucked ASS. 21.1% 3P shooting.

That was what Lebron was working with in that series, against the eventual-finalist Celtics.

Jamison shot 18.8% 3P in that series.

So where was the spacing? Parker shot well on a little more than 3 3PA/g. But we're still looking at weak secondary scoring support and spacing for Lebron against a really good defensive team. We still talk about Lebron choking, and of course, his performance in that game bears scrutiny, but he didn't cost his team that series, the crappy supporting cast and coaching very much did. If you look at the disparity in offensive support, it becomes GLARINGLY obvious.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Highest POY shares, post-merger:

CODE: SELECT ALL
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Tim Duncan
4. Larry Bird
5. Shaquille O'Neal

6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. Karl Malone
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Moses Malone

The RPOY 58 (for the 58 years of shot clock basketball) based on POY shares:

CODE: SELECT ALL
1. Bill Russell
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Michael Jordan
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Magic Johnson

6. Tim Duncan
7. Larry Bird
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Julius Erving
10. LeBron James

Why is Lebron #10 in the overall list but lower in the post merger list?

[SideshowBob]

I'm down to participate for this season, if that's cool. It'd be interesting to see everyone's preliminary lists before entering the playoffs.

[ronnymac2]

I'm down to participate for this season, if that's cool. It'd be interesting to see everyone's preliminary lists before entering the playoffs.

1. god
2. Kevin Durant
3. Chris Paul
4./5. Dwyane Wade/James Harden/Russell Westbrook in some order.


Other contenders: Nobody stands out. I guess playoffs will be major factors here. Steph Curry. Deron Williams, Tony Parker. Blake Griffin. Maybe Melo or Chandler (though the fact that I have a hard time comparing the two doesn't bode well for the more talented Melo). Maybe Kobe Bryant.

I really like Joakim Noah, Paul George, Marc Gasol, Tim Duncan, Brook Lopez, Paul Pierce, Chris Bosh and Ty Lawson, but they aren't at that level yet/anymore.

[SideshowBob]

Yeah, it's the 4/5 spots I'm interested in. Lots of strong candidates there. Westbrook's been epic since the All Star Break and OKC's been a consistent +9-9.5 team all season long. Wade and Harden have been battling in my head all season for top SG. Duncan's been great, Garnett's been great and Boston's fallen apart without him. George is definitely on my mind as well but he's not quite there yet. I can see Curry making noise in the playoffs, and I know Williams always competes when he gets there.

Paul vs. Durant could be interesting as well. I think Paul's season has gone relatively under the radar. I don't think LA can get past OKC, but I expect Paul to make some noise. If they end up matched up and OKC wins but Paul switches into what is known as "random god mode" and ends up outplaying Durant, I wouldn't be hesitant to slot him at #2, especially considering I don't think the gap has been that huge between the two in the RS.

[GSP]

Going into the playoffs

Lebron
Durant
CP3
Harden
Wade

The top 3 will be the top 3 no matter what IMO barring Harden going absolutely nuts in the playoffs. Im not 100% confident with 4 and 5 I think there are some other strong candidates. Good thing we have playoffs
BTW I thought Durant and CP3 were even going into the playoffs last year too but Kd really separated himself in the end. Cp3 had that injury I think which is kinda common for him in playoffs and Kd had something ridiculous like 30/7.5/5/2/1.5 with well above 60ts against the same Spurs that everyone (especially on RGM among the bigger posters) thought was unbeatable and would cruise through playoffs.

[therealbig3]

My list:

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. CP3
4. Wade
5. Harden

Seems like the top 3 are pretty unanimous for most people. Kobe is just outside the top 5 for me right now, and depending on the playoffs, he can crack the top 5.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Not sure if i can participate but i would like to.

Going into the playoffs:

1. Lebron - Simply the best player in the league having a historic regular season. Best player since MJ.
2. Durant - Scoring on ridiculous efficiency. Great player.
3. CP3 - Leading the clippers to the playoffs and their first divisional title.
4. D-wade - Remarkable how he sacrificed individual glory for team success. A team player and a great leader.
5. Harden - I was down on him after his poor finals performance but he bounced back and is having a really efficient season leading his team to the PS.

[oolalaa]

Not sure if i can participate but i would like to.

Going into the playoffs:

1. Lebron - Simply the best player in the league having a historic regular season. Best player since MJ.
2. Durant - Scoring on ridiculous efficiency. Great player.
3. CP3 - Leading the clippers to the playoffs and their first divisional title.
4. D-wade - Remarkable how he sacrificed individual glory for team success. A team player and a great leader.
5. Harden - I was down on him after his poor finals performance but he bounced back and is having a really efficient season leading his team to the PS.

You have an irrational bias against Kobe Bryant.

"HES NOT DAT IFFICENT DOE!!!!!!!!"

You have wet dreams about Barkleys FG% in the late 80s....don't you? I know you do, just admit it.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Not sure if i can participate but i would like to.

Going into the playoffs:

1. Lebron - Simply the best player in the league having a historic regular season. Best player since MJ.
2. Durant - Scoring on ridiculous efficiency. Great player.
3. CP3 - Leading the clippers to the playoffs and their first divisional title.
4. D-wade - Remarkable how he sacrificed individual glory for team success. A team player and a great leader.
5. Harden - I was down on him after his poor finals performance but he bounced back and is having a really efficient season leading his team to the PS.

You have an irrational bias against Kobe Bryant.

"HES NOT DAT IFFICENT DOE!!!!!!!!"

You have wet dreams about Barkleys FG% in the late 80s....don't you? I know you do, just admit it.

No I don't. I like Kobe but I don't see the argument for putting him over Harden, Wade or CP3 (Assuming you're not objecting to James or Durant).

[ardee]

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Chris Paul
4. Kobe Bryant
5. James Harden/Russell Westbrook

[oolalaa]

Not sure if i can participate but i would like to.

Going into the playoffs:

1. Lebron - Simply the best player in the league having a historic regular season. Best player since MJ.
2. Durant - Scoring on ridiculous efficiency. Great player.
3. CP3 - Leading the clippers to the playoffs and their first divisional title.
4. D-wade - Remarkable how he sacrificed individual glory for team success. A team player and a great leader.
5. Harden - I was down on him after his poor finals performance but he bounced back and is having a really efficient season leading his team to the PS.

You have an irrational bias against Kobe Bryant.

"HES NOT DAT IFFICENT DOE!!!!!!!!"

You have wet dreams about Barkleys FG% in the late 80s....don't you? I know you do, just admit it.

No I don't. I like Kobe but I don't see the argument for putting him over Harden, Wade or CP3 (Assuming you're not objecting to James or Durant).

Dwyane Wade has Lebron James on his team. Dwyane Wade can barely stay on the court without his knee flaring up. Dwyane Wade has logged over 650 minutes less than Kobe this year (650!). Dwyane Wade, despite scoring 6ppg less than Kobe this season, hasn't been any more efficient (ts%). You say he's sacrificed? I say you're only partly right. I say he's just a shadow of his former self. He's no longer capable of playing 40mpg at a high level. His athleticism has eroded to the point that he now has to rely on a shaky post up game and his **** jumper against good defenses. I expect him to have the exact same post season as he did last year. Still borderline a top 5 player, but anyone who thinks Wade has had a better season/or is a better player than the guy who has basically dragged a disfunctional/injury riddled/slow/old/mediocre defensed team to the post season at age 34 shouldn't be taken seriously. The only player in the history of the NBA who has been better than Kobe at age 34 is MJ. We're witnessing historic greatness this season, and no one seems to care.

And Harden? Harden's been really, really good. But lets not forget that he gets to the line 10 times per game on the fastest team in the league. He's simply not as good as his regular season numbers suggest. Wade and Harden is a legit comparison, though.

Ultimately....
1. Lebron James


2. Kevin Durant

3. Kobe Bryant

4. Chris Paul
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Carmelo Anthony
7. James Harden

8. Tim Duncan
9. Russell Westbrook
10. Tony Parker

Edit: Look at this. Just beautiful. Wade is simply INCAPABLE of doing this anymore. His days of 40+ point explosions are all but over.

[Not Bias]

Dwyane Wade has Lebron James on his team. Dwyane Wade can barely stay on the court without his knee flaring up. Dwyane Wade has logged over 650 minutes less than Kobe this year (650!). Dwyane Wade, despite scoring 6ppg less than Kobe this season, hasn't been any more efficient (ts%). You say he's sacrificed? I say you're only partly right. I say he's just a shadow of his former self. He's no longer capable of playing 40mpg at a high level. His athleticism has eroded to the point that he now has to rely on a shaky post up game and his **** jumper against good defenses. I expect him to have the exact same post season as he did last year. Still borderline a top 5 player, but anyone who thinks Wade has had a better season/or is a better player than the guy who has basically dragged a disfunctional/injury riddled/slow/old/mediocre defensed team to the post season at age 34 shouldn't be taken seriously. The only player in the history of the NBA who has been better than Kobe at age 34 is MJ. We're witnessing historic greatness this season, and no one seems to care.

And Harden? Harden's been really, really good. But lets not forget that he gets to the line 10 times per game on the fastest team in the league. He's simply not as good as his regular season numbers suggest. Wade and Harden is a legit comparison, though.

Ultimately....
1. Lebron James


2. Kevin Durant

3. Kobe Bryant

4. Chris Paul
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Carmelo Anthony
7. James Harden

8. Tim Duncan
9. Russell Westbrook
10. Tony Parker

Edit: Look at this. Just beautiful. Wade is simply INCAPABLE of doing this anymore. His days of 40+ point explosions are all but over.

I like your post, but what's your reasoning putting Kobe above CP3?

[oolalaa]

Dwyane Wade has Lebron James on his team. Dwyane Wade can barely stay on the court without his knee flaring up. Dwyane Wade has logged over 650 minutes less than Kobe this year (650!). Dwyane Wade, despite scoring 6ppg less than Kobe this season, hasn't been any more efficient (ts%). You say he's sacrificed? I say you're only partly right. I say he's just a shadow of his former self. He's no longer capable of playing 40mpg at a high level. His athleticism has eroded to the point that he now has to rely on a shaky post up game and his **** jumper against good defenses. I expect him to have the exact same post season as he did last year. Still borderline a top 5 player, but anyone who thinks Wade has had a better season/or is a better player than the guy who has basically dragged a disfunctional/injury riddled/slow/old/mediocre defensed team to the post season at age 34 shouldn't be taken seriously. The only player in the history of the NBA who has been better than Kobe at age 34 is MJ. We're witnessing historic greatness this season, and no one seems to care.

And Harden? Harden's been really, really good. But lets not forget that he gets to the line 10 times per game on the fastest team in the league. He's simply not as good as his regular season numbers suggest. Wade and Harden is a legit comparison, though.

Ultimately....
1. Lebron James


2. Kevin Durant

3. Kobe Bryant

4. Chris Paul
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Carmelo Anthony
7. James Harden

8. Tim Duncan
9. Russell Westbrook
10. Tony Parker

Edit: Look at this. Just beautiful. Wade is simply INCAPABLE of doing this anymore. His days of 40+ point explosions are all but over.

I like your post, but what's your reasoning putting Kobe above CP3?

CP3 is similar to Wade in that his dodgy knees physically prevent him from logging high minutes without suffering the consequences - either with a drop in standard of play or getting injued. CP3 is just so much more fragile than The Bean (he's logged even less minutes than Wade has). And he plays on a better/deeper/more cohesive team than Kobe, anyway. I wouldn't be consistent if I ranked Kobe over Wade and not CP3.

Also, I've always thought the advanced stats have overrated CP3 and underrated Kobe. Those who would rank Paul ahead of Bryant this season are fixated on PER and Win Shares. People get too bogged down in numbers and quantitative analysis. Emperical evidence has a big role to play - Kobe and CP3 aren't Major League Baseball players