RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread

[D.Brasco]

Even though it's usually not the case for most players, Kareem arguably was already in his prime when he came to the league.

Spending a full 4 years in college most likely played a role in that. You could argue the same for duncan and when he entered the league.

[Fencer reregistered]

Even though it's usually not the case for most players, Kareem arguably was already in his prime when he came to the league.

Spending a full 4 years in college most likely played a role in that. You could argue the same for duncan and when he entered the league.

Good point.

A lot of the centers in those days seemed to enter in their prime -- Cowens, Unseld, Walton ...

[ardee]

Average rankings based on personal lists

Right, apologies for not getting this done sooner. It took me a bit to collect lists from everyone who I could. The final summation rankings are based on the lists of ElGee, Positvity, fatal9, realbig3, colts18, DavidStern and myself. Bastillion only has rankings until 7, Doc hasn't been able to figure out his list yet, and more or less everyone else was waived through the project

Note, people may have wavered on the peak season of the player in question, but I'm listing the one that won first, because pretty much everyone was willing to change during the project (eg. '95 to '94 Hakeem, '71 to '77 Kareem, etc.), though the other season(s) are just being listed by the side.

1. '91 Jordan
2. '00 Shaq
3. '94 Hakeem
4. '09/'12 LeBron (the only one people are absolutely undecided on)
5. '67 Wilt
6. '77 Kareem
7. '86 Bird
8. '87 Magic
9. '03 Duncan
10. '65/'62 Russell
11. '04 Garnett
12. '77 Walton
13. '63/'64 Oscar
14. '76 Erving
15. '09/'10 Wade
16. '08 Kobe
17. '11/'06 Dirk
18. '95/'94 Robinson
19. '05/'07 Nash
20. '90 Ewing

Couple of things:

1. Russell was voted in way way way too early. I still think it was the freakiest result of the project.
2. The anti-LeBron bias in the project is now evident. He's the one with the largest shift.

Thoughts?

[Gregoire]

Average rankings based on personal lists

Right, apologies for not getting this done sooner. It took me a bit to collect lists from everyone who I could. The final summation rankings are based on the lists of ElGee, Positvity, fatal9, realbig3, colts18, DavidStern and myself. Bastillion only has rankings until 7, Doc hasn't been able to figure out his list yet, and more or less everyone else was waived through the project

Note, people may have wavered on the peak season of the player in question, but I'm listing the one that won first, because pretty much everyone was willing to change during the project (eg. '95 to '94 Hakeem, '71 to '77 Kareem, etc.), though the other season(s) are just being listed by the side.

1. '91 Jordan
2. '00 Shaq
3. '94 Hakeem
4. '09/'12 LeBron (the only one people are absolutely undecided on)
5. '67 Wilt
6. '77 Kareem
7. '86 Bird
8. '87 Magic
9. '03 Duncan
10. '65/'62 Russell
11. '04 Garnett
12. '77 Walton
13. '63/'64 Oscar
14. '76 Erving
15. '09/'10 Wade
16. '08 Kobe
17. '11/'06 Dirk
18. '95/'94 Robinson
19. '05/'07 Nash
20. '90 Ewing

Couple of things:

1. Russell was voted in way way way too early. I still think it was the freakiest result of the project.
2. The anti-LeBron bias in the project is now evident. He's the one with the largest shift.

Thoughts?

List seems good, but Wilt and Kareem IMO underrated and Garnett overrated.

[therealbig3]

My top 20 as of today, not including the current season:

1. 91 Michael Jordan
2. 00 Shaquille O'Neal
3. 65 Bill Russell
4. 12 LeBron James
5. 87 Magic Johnson
6. 86 Larry Bird
7. 67 Wilt Chamberlain
8. 77 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
9. 93 Hakeem Olajuwon
10. 03 Tim Duncan
11. 04 Kevin Garnett
12. 77 Bill Walton
13. 76 Julius Erving
14. 64 Oscar Robertson
15. 09 Dwyane Wade
16. 08 Kobe Bryant
17. 11 Dirk Nowitzki
18. 66 Jerry West
19. 03 Tracy McGrady
20. 95 David Robinson

A few changes since the project. I've changed my mind with regards to Dirk's peak. I strongly believe it has to be a year after 07, because he was an offensively flawed player before then imo...still great, but hadn't improved his mid-post game in order to take advantage of smaller, quicker defenders. I think that improvement took him from an elite offensive player to an all-time great one. I think he's interchangeable with Kobe actually.

I used to have T-Mac's peak at 15, over Wade, Kobe, West, and Dirk, but I've been re-evaluating him, and although I don't have any question about him being as good or better than them in THAT specific year, I also don't know if it was a fluke or if it was his actual ability that shone through for that one season before everything went to hell. So I don't have as much confidence in him anymore as I do in Wade or Kobe, because they played at peak level for multiple years, so I know it's not a fluke. So that lack of confidence makes me drop him a bit.

[GSP]

Thats a great list IMO realbigthree. Altho Id have peak Barkley or Karl Malone there instead of TMac.
BTW why do you consider 66 West his peak?

[therealbig3]

Well, just from a numbers standpoint, from 66-70, he puts up similar production. I like the way he tore up the Celtics defense in the 66 playoffs though, and overall, that and 68 were his best playoff runs. Regular season basically becomes a tiebreaker, and since he missed a ton of time in 68, I lean towards 66.

[ronnymac2]

This doesn't include the 2013 season.

The first 9 are interchangeable as GOAT peak players.

1. 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon
2. 1990 Michael Jordan
3. 2010 LeBron James
4. 2001 Shaquille O’Neal
5. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. 1990 Magic Johnson
7. 1964 Bill Russell
8. 1986 Larry Bird
9. 1967 Wilt Chamberlain

10. 2003 Tim Duncan

11. 2009 Dwyane Wade
12. 2006 Kobe Bryant
13. 1969 Jerry West
14. 1964 Oscar Robertson
15. 2004 Kevin Garnett
16. 1976 Julius Erving
17. 1996 Karl Malone
18. 2011 Dirk Nowitzki
19. 2008 Chris Paul
20. 2006 Steve Nash

[Dipper 13]

Almost nobody has Barkley circa 1989-90 in the top 20. There was even discussion of him being too high at #23! Is his defense viewed as that poor? Keep in mind the only year in PHX they had a better offense than the 1990 Sixers one was in 1994-95 (+6.2). In 1990 he was playing on a good team (though poor depth after Anderson & Smith) with a +5.4 offense (113.5 ORtg), and an average defensive team at +0.3. In 1989 the team defense was bad at +3.7, seeing a huge defensive improvement the next year. Can Barkley not get any credit for more consistent play or is everyone crediting that near +4.0 improvement to Rick Mahorn?

[Dipper 13]

Also during the Sixers 12 game winning streak from mid-January through early February, they had a 117.1 ORtg (+9.0)


Dallas Morning News - Mar 1, 1990

Philadelphia's interior defense has improved dramatically, and Mahorn's presence has allowed Barkley to guard the small forward. "Charles has become more of a leader each year I've been here,' said Lynam, who has been in Philadelphia for the last three years. "He's putting more of a conscious effort into being involved at the defensive end of the court on a consistent basis. He's more involved with the other players during the game. "We need an involved, active Charles. That has a positive effect." Barkley says he likes this Sixers team. He joins Mahorn and Gminski to give them one of the most physical front lines around. Hawkins and Johnny Dawkins, obtained from San Antonio for veteran Maurice Cheeks in the off-season, complement each other in the backcourt.

[oolalaa]

Well, just from a numbers standpoint, from 66-70, he puts up similar production. I like the way he tore up the Celtics defense in the 66 playoffs though, and overall, that and 68 were his best playoff runs. Regular season basically becomes a tiebreaker, and since he missed a ton of time in 68, I lean towards 66.

No one ever seems to acknowledge when discussing and ranking Jerry West that he had to go up against GOAT defenses (anchored by arguably the GOAT paint protector) in the post season year after year after miserable year. Boston had great perimiter defenders to chuck at him, too - K.C., Satch, Hondo were all annoying as hell. One need only look at the '65 post season to see what he could do when he was allowed to be ball dominant against a mediocre defense. Not even Michael freakin Jordan had a series where in he averaged 46.3 points per game (averaged 6 rebounds and 7 assists, too). Was crazy clutch in game 2 (offensive rebound put-back put L.A. up by 1, go-ahead game winner) and the close-out game 6 (iced it with a steal, an assist to Wiley, and 6 points in the last 3 minutes to thwart the rallying Bullets), as well.

The knock on West was that he got injured too often, and at the wort possible times, in the playoffs:
- Ankle sprain days before regular season ended kept him out of '67 playoffs
- Sprained ankle again in garbage time of game 4 '68 Finals with the series tied 2-2
- Hurt his right thumb at the end of game 2 win in '69 Finals. Responsible for his poor shooting in game 3, in what was essentially a close-out game for L.A.
- Several knocks to his hands and legs mid-way thru '70 Finals.
- Shred his knee 3 weeks before start of '71 playoffs
- All sorts of knocks and niggles in '73 Finals

But when he was healthy he was as UNSTOPPABLE a scorer as this league has ever seen. I'll never forgive Baylor and Wilt and Breda-Kolff for costing West what should have been his first ring in '69. I swear to Zeus they were TRYING to lose. Never has a superstar been **** over by his teammates as violently as West was in those Finals. A travesty. As far as I'm concerned, West has 2 rings, not 1.

And, yes, considering '66 was Wests last relatively healthy year, it was undoubtedly his peak. He was phenomanel in the Finals, particualry in crunch time of the must-win games 5 & 6.

West is without doubt the most underrated all-time great.

[pauk89]

2013 Durant has to be around 15-20~

[NaturalThunder]

Yeah, I'd be interested to see where some of the more knowledgeable posters think '13 Durant ranks now that his season is complete.

[E-Balla]

He's going to be in the DWade-TMac range.

[therealbig3]

I think outside of LeBron, 2013 Durant is the best wing since Jordan. I'd put him at 15 probably, after Jordan/Shaq/LeBron/Wilt/Bird/Magic/Duncan/KG/Hakeem/Walton/Dr. J/Oscar/Russell/Kareem (not in order).

[E-Balla]

Why would you put him over TMac, Kobe, and Wade? They're all basically the same players other than Kobe, Wade, and TMac being better suited to unipolar teams (but all of them still being good in teams with others).

[therealbig3]

Why would you put him over TMac, Kobe, and Wade? They're all basically the same players other than Kobe, Wade, and TMac being better suited to unipolar teams (but all of them still being good in teams with others).

I think Durant is better at elevating already good teams than T-Mac/Kobe/Wade, and that's more important to me than lifting a bad team to above average.

[Gideon]

T-Mac, Kobe, and Wade were all around .560-.580 TS% in their peak seasons... Durant averaged his 28 ppg on an insane .647 TS%. To me, the really special thing about Durant's season was the combination of volume and efficiency. He probably had the single greatest shooting season for a high-volume scorer in NBA history.

[Doctor MJ]

Why would you put him over TMac, Kobe, and Wade? They're all basically the same players other than Kobe, Wade, and TMac being better suited to unipolar teams (but all of them still being good in teams with others).

When speaking to be suited to unipolarity, it's worth pointing out that TMac appeared to be best suited to a unipolarity that resulted in .500 ball. How important is that?

The only one of these guy who achieved greatness in a unipolar setting is Wade, though while I'll defend it, that was clearly a fluke. All of these guys really need to be with other strong talent to get to the promised land, and yet it's hard to imagine any of these guys ever putting up efficiency numbers like Durant did this year even if they shot as less volume than Durant did.

I haven't totally made up my mind on placing Durant, but short of the really top tier peaks in history, everything else seems at least debatable.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Why would you put him over TMac, Kobe, and Wade? They're all basically the same players other than Kobe, Wade, and TMac being better suited to unipolar teams (but all of them still being good in teams with others).

I think Durant is better at elevating already good teams than T-Mac/Kobe/Wade, and that's more important to me than lifting a bad team to above average.

Huh? Where has Durant taken OKC? Where did he ever take an average team? Dude is paired with Westbrook, had Harden off the bench(now KMart), and had Ibaka/Thabo holding down the defense.

Kobe took a good team to a 11-1 playoff record, 3 Finals, 2 titles during his prime. Wade took a good Heat to a title in 2006. Tmac....well I agree Durant is better than Tmac.

Durant's scoring efficiency comes back to Earth when his uAST% FGs shoot up to the level of Kobe, Wade. He's no where near the playmaker as them, and not the defender either.