Rose Injury Thread 9: "Warriors, come out to play-ee-ay."

[kyrv]

The thing that bothers me - do we have any evidence that anyone rehabbed (in the past) by taking tons of extra time off? We've run through so many of the ACL NBA tears and they all seemed to be fairly expedient recoveries (except, obviously, the ones that hit the 9 month point in the offseason....so they're kind of moot).

I'd like to know if anyone actually has ever done what Rose is doing. And why. And how it went.

If you back that side of the argument, you should try to find proof that this isnt an anomalous thing. And again, we're talking modern ACL tears, with the new medical advances. Not older examples.

It would be one thing if they said, we know what the doctors said, but we're intentionally trying this new method. But he's kind of just...not playing in games despite that being the prescribed rehab for this injury.

On B and B they mentioned the questions to Rose should change, it shouldn't be, when you are playing, it should be when will you continue your rehab.

[The Explorer]

Rose is cleared to play NBA basketball, and has been for several weeks now. The argument is not whether he can play. He can. The argument is whether he is right in choosing not to play.

Kyrv said that Rose stated he could have played. Which is a lie. Rose never made any such statements.

Rose could have played.

Do you think there's some force preventing him from playing in real games?

You're also misquoting me but meh, it's cool. Rose said he was healthy. He IS playing. He obviously CAN play.

This is bordering on silly.

Rose is healthy (his words), he's been cleared, the normal rehab calls for him to play in real games, he's been playing basketball against NBA players and dominating.

Now...where is the evidence he can't play, when he is factually playing?

There is none.

ROSE IS PLAYING

Now it's time to play in real games to continue his rehab.

Again, show me where it has been documented that Rose could have played last night.

Rose is not playing in regular season games, he is practicing. Do you know what the difference between practice and games are?

The time for him to take the next step in his rehab is when he is ready for that. Not before that.

]Because he is refusing to play in real games.

Jamal Crawford had some great comments on the injury. Have to get over the mental part.

You made a huge assumption by saying he is refusing. Not yet ready and outright refusal are two different things.

then he goes against doctors protocol regarding healed ACLs. Because the mental progress part comes from playing in games. Dont take it from me. Take it from those who touch you with cold hands.

Lets not be confused though the real Issue is why Rose refuses to get with the program.

You don't know what conversations Dr Cole has had with Rose, and you don't know how Dr Cole feels about the situation, other than public comments he made back in May 2012.

so you're telling me Rose is Doctor Cole's guinnie pig because Cole is now rewriting the course of ACL rehab that he believed in a year ago? Im not sure how much I like this news.

Are you really gonna make judgments about a player based on nearly 1 year old comments from the doc? That would be pretty stupid.

well, did I tell you about the time I tried to load a lit M80 into an empty milk bottle?

To use the word refuse is also wrong. Tell me, how is he refusing to get with the program when he is working hard every day to get back?

by inventing his own course of treatment

No, i didn't say that Rose is doctor cole's guinea pig. Stop making things up. Reread my post. I said you don't how Dr. cole feels about the situation and you don't know the conversation they've had.

He's not inventing his own course of treatment. He is simply not ready to take the next step in his rehab.

[VolumePoster]

One point I'd like clarified for my own sanity: do we really know Rose has been "dominating?' Because I've always kind of wondered if maybe, well, Rose has looked bad in practice. Like really bad. And rather than admitting that he's struggling badly, and wouldn't be an asset on the court, there's the cockeyed story about how he needs to "mentally prepare."

Those one on one images didn't help me out. To me, he lacked suddenness and couldn't get to the rim against borderline NBA players and slow-footed bigs. Nor did shots of Rose shooting jumpers pregame. Granted, he wasn't really trying hard. We have a raving Stacy King, but when isn't Stacy King raving?

I just hope we're not fooling ourselves. Being irritated about a great, healthy player not playing is one thing. Having a team that just invested 100 million in a guy who isn't physically ready is the stuff of clothes rending and teeth gnashing.

Alleviate my fears, people.

I didnt see anything that blew my hair back in those videos. Only Rose can help you and himself by facing competition at full boil.

I'll just come out and say it: I think it's far more likely that Rose is struggling mightily with his game than a person who lives, dreams, and bleeds basketally for his life suddenly leaves his teammates - with whom he has a fantastic relationship - high and dry. It's out of character, completely and utterly.

Occam's Razor.

[BullsFan88]

Posting this in here:

Assuming that the Bulls cannot beat the Heat is just that. An assumption. The Bulls aren't just any team. They are the one Eastern conference team that does appear to get into Miami's head. Some things to consider:

1. During the Thibadeau-era the Bulls are 7-3 against the Heat in the season.

2. Tons of people have tried to rattle Lebron before. To his credit, I have never seen him lose his composure. Yesterday he did. The Bulls got in his head.

3. Spoelstra admitted that some of his players began to cry after the Bulls swept them last season.

4. We've been able to beat the Heat without Rose.

5. We had the most important regular season win in the entire NBA against the most dominant team in the league.

Obviously in the end, the only thing that matters is what happens in the playoffs. But I have an issue with those that just write us off so easily.

Another thing, we're the only team in the NBA that has beaten the Miami Heat twice.... without Rose. Not to mention both games we had key starters out whether it was RIP, Noah, Gibson, Hinrich. I think we can beat the Heat in a series.

[kyrv]

On the score they were talking about how Dr. Cole meant 8-12 months which included playing in games to finish the rehab. And, you hear comments from Dr. Andrews about RG3/AP being superhuman and recovering early. I am not saying there are in basketball shape etc.. but Derrick being a world class athlete should have physically recovered a long time ago.

And, Taj just said today that his knee is sometimes 50% and sometimes 90%. I guess Derrick wants to be grimy like Hinrich and not play non-physical like Vlad for a few games?

Yep, he was cleared to play. That's the screaming elephant in the room.

His medical people cleared him to play and continue his rehab.

Some are still acting, imo, like he plays when the rehab is done, when playing is part of the rehab.

Yes he will be sore. It will hurt. He's still rehabbing. And guess what? Everybody on the Bulls playing major minutes is sore and hurting.

[AAU Teammate]

And the '94-'95 Orlando Magic fans may have had the same thought as well.

Sure we're nowhere near as good as that team, but the current East is worse than that 1995 playoffs East, and the '94-'95 Bulls would be better than the current Heat too. Actually kind of similar teams in the sense that they are driven by legendary wing players and jumpshooters.

I am fine chasing being the exception to the rule. It's (gasp) fun. In the odd event that it happens, and we knock out the Heat, then I have some grandkids story fodder.

Celtics and Pacers almost pulled it off last year, and I frankly didnt love those rosters.

Well, yeah. Also the Celtics last year had Rondo averaging 17pts/12ast/7reb, KG averaging 19pts/10reb, Pierce averaging 19/6/3.

I mean if you give us that, I'd poke my chest out a lot more. But where is all that coming from...here? Theoretically if Deng plays at a high level, Boozer plays at a high level and Nate or someone else does, you might be onto something. But that involves our guys playing way, way above what they've done this season.

The Celtics last year were a dead fish midyear. The object of everyone's scorn. They turned it on late and got serious. Experienced teams do that and the Bulls are what I would call experienced. They know each other well. When healthy, we're better defensively than Boston '12, and yes worse offensively.

Also, another note about the 94-95 Magic - I call their defeat of the Bulls a big upset, and I would call us knocking out Miami (even with Derrick) a very big upset.

I'd give Miami far and away favorite in a series with us, but not the 95-98% chance of victory you were alluding to last week. That's too much for a game with tons of variables. Gimme one crazy Derrick game, one crazy Nate game (after Hinrich falls in a well between Games 2 and 3). One poor shooting Heat night, and great defense throughout. Suddenly we'd be in a game 7.

It's silly to bring up all these what-ifs, but ORL '94-95, DAL '10-11, DET '03-04 are all parts of what make me a basketball fan.

[kyrv]

One point I'd like clarified for my own sanity: do we really know Rose has been "dominating?' Because I've always kind of wondered if maybe, well, Rose has looked bad in practice. Like really bad. And rather than admitting that he's struggling badly, and wouldn't be an asset on the court, there's the cockeyed story about how he needs to "mentally prepare."

Those one on one images didn't help me out. To me, he lacked suddenness and couldn't get to the rim against borderline NBA players and slow-footed bigs. Nor did shots of Rose shooting jumpers pregame. Granted, he wasn't really trying hard. We have a raving Stacy King, but when isn't Stacy King raving?

I just hope we're not fooling ourselves. Being irritated about a great, healthy player not playing is one thing. Having a team that just invested 100 million in a guy who isn't physically ready is the stuff of clothes rending and teeth gnashing.

Alleviate my fears, people.

I didnt see anything that blew my hair back in those videos. Only Rose can help you and himself by facing competition at full boil.

I'll just come out and say it: I think it's far more likely that Rose is struggling mightily with his game than a person who lives, dreams, and bleeds basketally for his life suddenly leaves his teammates - with whom he has a fantastic relationship - high and dry. It's out of character, completely and utterly.

Occam's Razor.

I agree, and I think it's a (bad) combination of him being afraid to play and jump on his knee (normal) with the thought that he's too cool to go through the playing poorly part (not normal).

[panthermark]

Well, he is mentally weak either to be scared to play or to listen to his "advisers"...He is getting paid, he must go out there and play regardless of who his teammates are...Everybody knows he is fine...Everybody knows he is dominating...If Im Jerry I would be pissed at Derrick Rose right know and would call a meeting to see whats going on...They must have a conversation, just the 2 of them to clear the air...let GarPax/BJ/Reggie out of it...Just a conversation between the employer and the employee...


BTW, panthermark, Your are one of my favorite posters

I can't even imagine what the FO must be going through right now. How can you force Rose to play without forcing him to play? Turn the public against him? That could lead to an ugly, behind the scenes war. But they have to be pissed. $200K a game..that is what Rose is making this year.

Oh...and thanks bro!

[fleet]

On the score they were talking about how Dr. Cole meant 8-12 months which included playing in games to finish the rehab..

I suspected that. Glad its now been clarified. Now we can spend the next 100 pages reclarifying.

[DuckIII]

DRose knows that, and I dont think it factors into his decision so much as its about his health and confidence in his body.

I would looooove to believe that. Small problem though, Derrick Rose's management team dating back to December leaked twice, and then finally confirmed, that the Bulls unlikelihood of beating Miami is a critical consideration to his return. Oops.

And you're right that last night's win doesn't mean anything. Just like the Bulls record doesn't mean anything, nor does the quality of Rose's teammates. Because he signed a contract to play basketball if he's healthy, regardless of those considerations.

[BullsFan88]

Sure anything could happen, but it's highly unlikely the Bulls without Rose can beat the Heat in a 7 game series. All your points are valid and slightly move the gap in the Bulls favor, but superior talent also always wins out in the playoffs. Just ask the other 7 post-dynasty Bulls playoff teams. 05 Wizards were more talented (than Bulls minus Deng and Curry), 06 Heat more talented, 07 Pistons more talented, 09 Celtics were more talented (w/o Garnett and Bulls w/o Deng), 10 Cavs were more talented, 11 Heat were more talented. Close call but last year's Sixers were probably more talented than Bulls team without Rose and Noah and gimpy wrist Deng.

But then again we beat a 07 Heat team that was the same as the year before and clearly they were more talented than us. I think it has to do with chemistry and which team is the hottest entering the playoffs

[BahamaBull]

I think Reggies comments are very stupid...Besides Asik our roster really didn t get worst. I even think we are better...

Im a Kirk hater but I will have to admit I was wrong when I criticized him very game...He makes everyone better, his impact is huge and is a blue collar guy. Much better than CJ Watson who have a better shot but not the same intangilbles and toughness of Kirk Hinrich so I believe we got better there.

Nate is 10000000000000x better than Lucas...

Korver is one dimensional...A very good one domensional and I would love to have him back next year...But I think Beli fits this team much better...Beli can create his own shot sometimes and proved to be clutch when we needed him, so I will have to say we also got better there...

Jimmay!!!!! The most improved player on our roster! He basicaly replaced Brewer...I love Brewer but Jimmy is already much much better than him! We really got a steal there...Props to the FO...I see Jimmy as a Kawhi Leonard type of player for us this year...Nobody paid attention on him and he is killing it!


Booz is playing much better this year! Jo made the all star team and is having a carreer year and I believe is the front runner to DPY...Luol is getting healthier and you saw last night what a Healthy Luol Deng can do for you...I think Taj is having a solid year...Even Nazr is playing better lately...

So whats the point to criticize this team Reggie?? we are 39-31 and rarelly played healthy...If this team was healthy all year I think we could win 50+ games...Imagine if you add a MVP caliber player...Scary! But Reggie Rose doesnt share the same opinion so his little brother will sit out the whole season...Shame!

[BullsFan88]

Its not a mental issue at this point. I think him playing in that practice with his teammates and clearly taking contact, side stepping, crossing over etc nullifies all the arguments on him trying to overcome the mental aspect. He has said it time from time that his left knee gets sore when activity level increases. Have any of you guys ever played on a sore knee? You really can't do much because the knee gets so tired you really cant use it and you just have to rest until the soreness goes away. This goes back to when he said he wants to come back at 110%. If his knee is going to get sore everytime he plays at a high level, he wont be playing lots of minutes and hence wont be at 110%. I think he wants to come back to the point where he wants to play full minutes without any problems and you can't do that with a knee thatll get sore after 5-10 minutes of playing time. This soreness isn't going to magically disappear by playing in a real game because it happens when he runs regardless if he plays in practice or in a real game. Remember when he finished surgery he had to "relearn" his moving ability of his left knee. Imagine you not working out for a long time and then begin after a whole year. You will get very very sore the next day. As you continue to workout the soreness decreases gradually to the point where youll be able to workout the same body party day after day. This is the case with Rose. Not a mental aspect not because he's soft, and no outside influence.

[Getembuck]

Best part of last night besides the win is that this has brought some national attention to the situation. Doubt it really makes any difference but at least the word is out there. Only negative thing was the Broussard interview before the game where he said that derrick has no deadline to comeback. So basically this soap opera is going to continue until we will the championship or eliminated from the playoffs.

[panthermark]

Its not a mental issue at this point. ................

You sure about that?

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketba ... eason.html

It’s all mental for Derrick Rose now.

The hamstrings are better. The workouts easier. He can do everything physically. He’s feeling no pressure from the Bulls to return. Reggie’s just being Reggie. And there’s no rift between Derrick and the Bulls organization......

If there was anything else to be discerned from Rose’s latest and most expansive update to local reporters, it’s that his reticence to return to the court after more than three weeks of five-on-five practices appears to be more out of caution than fear. The mental ‘‘hump’’ he talked about is a hurdle, not a barrier — not an insignificant distinction.

‘‘I think with any surgery, mentally, you have to get over that hump — that’s what I’m doing,’’ Rose said. ‘‘I’m able to play, but it’s just getting over that hump — I should be fine."

‘‘
I think I can do everything [physically]. It’s just me having the confidence to do it. I’m just trying to feel normal. When I’m out there and not thinking and just reacting, that’s when I know I’ll be ready".

“I don’t have a date, to tell you the truth. I haven’t even really thought about it. Like I said, I’m just taking my time. I haven’t taken any steps back. I’m moving forward, I’m getting stronger every day. I did every workout possible. My workouts are getting a lot easier, but I’m moving in the right direction,” he said. “[My hamstrings are] just waking up. They’re getting a lot stronger, but they’re coming along. I’m moving in the right direction, haven’t taken any steps back.”

I'm sure all of those quotes will be forgetten (again) 30 minutes from now.

[-Illmatic-]

Another thought I've been having is what if he sits out all season and we make it to the second round of the playoffs? That's not out the question given the right matchup. At that point he would be playing 5 on 5 scrimmage with his teammates for over 2 months. The pressure for him to come back would be insane, Noah would be playing more injured than Rose.

It just makes sense to get him out there for 8-10 regular season games and avoid a situation like that. Otherwise announce now that he's done for the season. Bulls fans have showed up and supported the team in much harder times we will continue to do so if the hope of a Rose comeback is eliminated.

[SpinninHouse]

Its not a mental issue at this point. ................

You sure about that?

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketba ... eason.html

It’s all mental for Derrick Rose now.

The hamstrings are better. The workouts easier. He can do everything physically. He’s feeling no pressure from the Bulls to return. Reggie’s just being Reggie. And there’s no rift between Derrick and the Bulls organization......

If there was anything else to be discerned from Rose’s latest and most expansive update to local reporters, it’s that his reticence to return to the court after more than three weeks of five-on-five practices appears to be more out of caution than fear. The mental ‘‘hump’’ he talked about is a hurdle, not a barrier — not an insignificant distinction.

‘‘I think with any surgery, mentally, you have to get over that hump — that’s what I’m doing,’’ Rose said. ‘‘I’m able to play, but it’s just getting over that hump — I should be fine."quote]

‘‘I think I can do everything [physically]. It’s just me having the confidence to do it. I’m just trying to feel normal. When I’m out there and not thinking and just reacting, that’s when I know I’ll be ready".

“I don’t have a date, to tell you the truth. I haven’t even really thought about it. Like I said, I’m just taking my time. I haven’t taken any steps back. I’m moving forward, I’m getting stronger every day. I did every workout possible. My workouts are getting a lot easier, but I’m moving in the right direction,” he said. “[My hamstrings are] just waking up. They’re getting a lot stronger, but they’re coming along. I’m moving in the right direction, haven’t taken any steps back.”

Interesting. So Derrick Rose's direct quote is "I'm able to play." Well, I guess that settles the debate. Kryv -- you are 100% correct. Derrick could have played last night.

[Tenchi Ryu]

I'm noticing a trend here....

Don't want to generalize, but for the most part, those who are leaning more to Rose's defense seem to also be leaning more towards thinking our team isn't good enough to do anything this year. On the flip, the ones who are disappointed or at least concerned with Rose's hesitation are also ones who are leaning towards thinking this team has at least a puncher's chance to actually do something this year.

[BahamaBull]

Another thought I've been having is what if he sits out all season and we make it to the second round of the playoffs? That's not out the question given the right matchup. At that point he would be playing 5 on 5 scrimmage with his teammates for over 2 months. The pressure for him to come back would be insane, Noah would be playing more injured than Rose.

It just makes sense to get him out there for 8-10 regular season games and avoid a situation like that. Otherwise announce now that he's done for the season. Bulls fans have showed up and supported the team in much harder times we will continue to do so if the hope of a Rose comeback is eliminated.

It may sound funny, but Derrick Rose is the healthiest player on our roster...But he doesnt want to play...Is that simple.

[panthermark]

Interesting. So Derrick Rose's direct quote is "I'm able to play." Well, I guess that settles the debate. Kryv -- you are 100% correct. Derrick could have played last night.

Don't forget the "I'm feeling healhty, man" - Derrick Rose