Gerald Henderson

[tsherkin]

I'm interested to see where you guys would rank Hendo among all other SG's in the league.

It wouldn't be high. He's not that useful a player yet, not in significant minutes. He's pretty underwhelming in most respects. I mean, as a bench player, sure, he's got utility, but he's outside of the top 30 at first pass, probably lower than that when you consider strong 6MOY types.

[Beardman]

I wonder though, how much some of the marginal improvement as of late could be credited to Gay's presence.

What improvement? He looks basically identical to last season, except when he's permitted to post. A little more aggressive occasionally, but third year in a row, he looks pretty much the same. Nothing special is happening in his game and even the post game won't matter that much if his usage increases there. Not unless it's TRULY special, like good enough to be the foundational component of his offensive approach.

I don't entirely agree, I have noticed some augmentation to his midrange. he has become a bit more crafty in getting his shot off from there, and his passing while on the move has also improved from what I've watched.

[HornetJail]

I'm interested to see where you guys would rank Hendo among all other SG's in the league.

It wouldn't be high. He's not that useful a player yet, not in significant minutes. He's pretty underwhelming in most respects. I mean, as a bench player, sure, he's got utility, but he's outside of the top 30 at first pass, probably lower than that when you consider strong 6MOY types.

Outside of the top 30??? I'll be impressed if you can list 15-20.

[tsherkin]

Also my point tsherkin, I really like Derozan but is he worth 9.5m for as you described "underwhelming".

Nope, no he isn't. Apart from an early season burst, he hasn't performed any different than years before and there was vitriol in the pre-season over his extension. He's not worth a major investment and is another Colangelo mistake. Now, from a standpoint of fan excitement and needing someone to pin hope on and stuff, I kind of get it (timing and what-not aside) but ultimately, it's a terrible decision for winning games, that much is clear. Nice kid, but not a focal offensive player.

I don't entirely agree, I have noticed some augmentation to his midrange. he has become a bit more crafty in getting his shot off from there, and his passing while on the move has also improved from what I've watched.

I guess that depends on how you define "mid-range."

10-15' / 16-23'

2012: 40.7 / 34.3
2013: 38.6 / 40.3

We've seen improvement in his perimeter two-point shooting (especially from the left side), but have actually seen backslide from 10-15 feet. It's not sufficient to be happy, though, since he hasn't improved in any other area to a meaningful extent. You can't build an offensive attack around 40% jumpers that the other team is more likely to rebound.

[Beardman]

Meh the increase from 16-beyond is good enough to make the backslide from 10-15 a wash. Still not outstanding i guess.

[Elden Payton]

There is no wash when your mid game is sub 40 percent as a SG who cannot consistently create his own shot off the dribble.

[tsherkin]

Outside of the top 30??? I'll be impressed if you can list 15-20.

You asked, I answered. I don't think much of Henderson because he's an inefficient player who doesn't offer much besides sub-37% 3P shooting.

Crawford and Billups are both better. Jason Terry. DeShawn Stevenson, Avery Bradley, Courtney Lee, OJ Mayo, Harden, Carlos Delfino, Kobe, Wade, JJ Redick (though he's been worse since the trade), Wesley Matthews, Tyreke Evans, Danny Green, Manu, Randy Foye....

Honorable Mention: A somewhat-healthy Eric Gordon (though we do know that he's basically never healthy).

You wanted 15-20, there you go. I could go on, that's just a quick look at starters at prominent bench guys.

That doesn't even touch on guys who are of comparable ability and thus debatably better, like DeRozan.

[tsherkin]

Meh the increase from 16-beyond is good enough to make the backslide from 10-15 a wash. Still not outstanding i guess.

It's neutral, though, it doesn't represent an improvement. That much is borne out by his TS% and ORTG, which are in the same range as the two previous seasons, better than last year but worse than the year before and still craptacular.

[The MVPlaya]

DeShawn Stevenson?

[Elden Payton]

No offense but that list is horrible tsherkin

Billups? Delfino? Bradley? Green? Foye? Redick? Stevenson? Lee?

Terrible.

[Elden Payton]

DeShawn Stevenson?

I know.

[HornetJail]

You're really selling Henderson short if you think Billups, Stevenson, Foye, Delfino, Green, or even Courtney Lee is better than him. Redick and Terry are very arguable and definitely haven't been as of late.

Don't get your last comment, you essentially said the players like Derozan are equal therefore they are better.


By the way, you've actually listed 9 legit answers.

[tsherkin]

Don't get your last comment, you essentially said the players like Derozan are equal therefore they are better.

I said I didn't include players who were of roughly the same level, some of whom could be debated as superior.

No offense but that list is horrible tsherkin

Billups? Delfino? Bradley? Green? Foye? Redick? Stevenson? Lee?

Terrible.

Billups is easily Henderson's superior; the only argument you could make is that he's only played 20 games. He draws fouls better, he's a better shooter, he's a FAR better ball-handler and playmaker... that one is no contest. Those other guys are more efficient scorers as well, several of whom are comparable or superior defenders as well.

Henderson SUCKS offensively and he isn't an impact defender. He's really a non-factor as a player, worth no more than bench minutes and he doesn't even give valuable comparable to those other guys. YMMV on how you evaluate players, but he's not an impact defender and he's a monstrously inadequate offensive player.

[HornetJail]

Henderson SUCKS offensively and he isn't an impact defender. He's really a non-factor as a player, worth no more than bench minutes and he doesn't even give valuable comparable to those other guys. YMMV on how you evaluate players, but he's not an impact defender and he's a monstrously inadequate offensive player.

I don't know which Gerald Henderson you've been watching / box score analyzing (more likely), but 20ppg, 4.1rpg, 3.3apg, on 47.2/38.1/83.9 shooting with 1.6 TOs is F-A-R from sucking offensively. That's what he's doing in March. I'm not even going to get into what you said about his defense because you're as far off on that as you can get without me bursting out laughing.

Billups is easily Henderson's superior; the only argument you could make is that he's only played 20 games. He draws fouls better, he's a better shooter, he's a FAR better ball-handler and playmaker... that one is no contest. Those other guys are more efficient scorers as well, several of whom are comparable or superior defenders as well.

You realize we're talking about the present Billups, versus the current Gerald Henderson, don't you?

[tsherkin]

I don't know which Gerald Henderson you've been watching / box score analyzing (more likely), but 20ppg, 4.1rpg, 3.3apg, on 47.2/38.1/83.9 shooting with 1.6 TOs is F-A-R from sucking offensively. That's what he's doing in March.

A month of performance that isn't supported by what he was doing for the previous 43 games... Those averages are from a 16-game sample floated by two games in particular, the Orlando and New York games. That doesn't make that set meaningful, just something you're attached to emotionally. It's possible Henderson will eventually become a better player, but 209 NBA games is a pretty powerful sample in comparison to 16.

You realize we're talking about the present Billups, versus the current Gerald Henderson, don't you?

Yup. And Billups' sample for this season is small, but in line with his previous performances. He's still drawing upon decent 3pt shooting (lower than usual) and elite FT shooting (though with lower draw than usual). He's a more useful player than Henderson. Maybe not compared to what Henderson has done over the last month, I'll grant you, and so you could say those samples even out if you like.

I don't value Henderson; I don't believe in him yet. If he is capable of continuing something like what he's done in February and March over a longer period of time, then I am of course open to re-evaluating that premise. But a short sample that totally outperforms previous history and total potential is fairly common, especially post-All-Star break.

[Elden Payton]

Billups is a PG forced to play SG, does that make him a SG? He is 37 years old and has played 20 games.

Henderson averages 17.9/4.4/2.8/1.1/0.6 on .449/.378/.821 per 36.

His TS is .537 and and eFG is .471 which is not great but at the SG position he is starter quality and he gets to the line 5.4 times a game on a team that gets no love from the refs, he also attempts 1.6 3 per game which is solid but he knows his limits.

Avery Bradley who you listed averages 11.3/3.1/2.6/1.6/0.5 on .397/.301/.744 per 36 for a TS of .455 and an eFG of .438, he only attempts 1.2 ft per 36 while shooting 3.1 3fg at 30 percent.

Don't even get me started on Stevenson, Delfino, Lee etc

What do you have against Henderson?

[gordito]

Don't get your last comment, you essentially said the players like Derozan are equal therefore they are better.

I said I didn't include players who were of roughly the same level, some of whom could be debated as superior.

No offense but that list is horrible tsherkin

Billups? Delfino? Bradley? Green? Foye? Redick? Stevenson? Lee?

Terrible.

Billups is easily Henderson's superior; the only argument you could make is that he's only played 20 games. He draws fouls better, he's a better shooter, he's a FAR better ball-handler and playmaker... that one is no contest. Those other guys are more efficient scorers as well, several of whom are comparable or superior defenders as well.

Henderson SUCKS offensively and he isn't an impact defender. He's really a non-factor as a player, worth no more than bench minutes and he doesn't even give valuable comparable to those other guys. YMMV on how you evaluate players, but he's not an impact defender and he's a monstrously inadequate offensive player.

WTF did I just read? At first I thought you were trolling, then I realized you're actually a Mod.

If you actually paid any attention to more than box scores, you would realize that he's suffered a few significant injuries over the past two season, and that those injuries have directly correlated (i.e. skewed) to low production once he returned. I'm sure if someone actually did some analysis to remove the 10-15 games he played in after every injury he suffered, his numbers would be wayyyyy better.

No one's claiming he's a stud, so you're going way too far trying to discount him as a player. That's by far the worst list I've ever seen from a moderator. DeShawn Stevenson? Danny Green? Let's see Green do anything close to what he's doing now (which is basically just hitting wide open threes) if he were on a team like the Bobcats.

Post all-star break, Henderson has been averaging 19.6/4.4/3.1 on 47.4% and 6.3 FTA, and apparently he "SUCKS offensively". And at looking at his career numbers instead of more recent performances, considering 1) he is only in his FOURTH season, 2) he played for Larry f'ing Brown and basically averaged 5 mpg for his first two seasons, and 3) injuries have slowed him down in his last two seasons.

[tsherkin]

Billups is a PG forced to play SG, does that make him a SG? He is 37 years old and has played 20 games.

Yeah, like I said, Billups' sample is as suspect as the largest part of Henderson's work of consequence. If you wish to consider March for Henderson as meaningful, then you must include Billups on the list. *shrug* As I said, YMMV; a Charlotte fan will never accept what I'm saying because it's not emotionally resonant, I get that. And it's not like I'm an infallible basketball mind, but I don't trust small samples from players who have sucked for over 200 games before that, especially when their primary body of new work is under 20 games and after the All-Star break, when guys frequently outperform what they can maintain over a season.

Avery Bradley who you listed averages 11.3/3.1/2.6/1.6/0.5 on .397/.301/.744 per 36 for a TS of .455 and an eFG of .438, he only attempts 1.2 ft per 36 while shooting 3.1 3fg at 30 percent.

*nod*

Another smaller sample. He's coming back from a dislocated shoulder, but has more on-ball skills and isn't shooting as well as he normally does. A borderline selection, but better when healthy. I probably should have put him with Eric Gordon though, that's true.

Don't even get me started on Stevenson, Delfino, Lee etc

All superior scoring efficiency, Stevenson's a comparable defender, Delfino's a better playmaker, Lee is at worst a comparable defender...

What do you have against Henderson?

200+ games suggesting that he's on a hot streak, coupled with him scoring at around league average efficiency and not displaying any stand out skills. He's not a remarkable player to date and his performance has all the ear marks of a fairly standard outlier month. If he gets better and stays better, great, but even right now, he's floating in DeRozan territory, and I don't think much of DeRozan either.

[Elden Payton]

Also when did I mention March stats?

I'm talking a whole season, how are Henderson's and Bradley's season a small sample size?

Using Bradleys injury as an excuse, nearly every offseason Hendo has had surgery for something, just minor stuff like hip surgery.

[raleigh]

Last two seasons, so as to remove the small sample bias that tsherkin mentions:

http://bkref.com/tiny/fhkM1