Trade Thread (REVENGE OF THE NERDS II: NERDS IN PARADISE)

[FNQ]

Klay hate is the exact same song people sang against Curry.. Like hitting 40% of 3s while playing good D and being a big net + for the team are bad things

Meanwhile, Barnes' effect on the team is a shade over neutral, his defense is statistically worse, and is extremely raw/overrated at this point.

And we want to give him more run. Wish people paid more attention to team stats than individual ones. One of the big reasons I miss RAPM - Klay's clearly better and more impactful. He just needs more highlight dunks yall to earn the respect of RGM.

Can honestly say I'm disappointed in some for their takes on Klay. If anyone is replaceable, its a neutral impact SF thats not an impact defender or an offensive impact player. 3 pt bombers that can stay on the court for long stretches are EXTREMELY valuable. Why do you think other teams love Klay so much?

[Onus]

How many of these guys shot 30% in the 4th this entire NBA season? That is rare company.

Kobe shoots something like 25% in clutch situations that doesn't change his recognition as a closer. So I guess Klay is in good company.

And while you might or might not be right on Barnes at least give the guy a year.

I am. I just think Klay is more valuable than Barnes. I think Barnes will be solid down the line, but if we were to trade a prospect I'd look to trade Barnes before moving Klay.

[FNQ]

Btw, Barnes is not a better defender or even close as a shooter. And Barnes isnt asked to play out of position on top of that, in crunch time.

[TaylorMonkey]

How many of these guys shot 30% in the 4th this entire NBA season? That is rare company.

Kobe shoots something like 25% in clutch situations that doesn't change his recognition as a closer. So I guess Klay is in good company.

Kobe actually makes game winners. He also shoots .452 fg%, .344 3's in the 4th, with an eFG of .508.

Klay shoots .317, .301 3's and .393 eFG.

And Kobe clutch is overrated though he does have the ability to turn it on, but I do find it interesting that you tried to cite Kobe's "clutch" %fg in last minutes to compare against Klay's ENTIRE 4th quarter performances. Kobe's 4th quarters shame Klay's.

Klay's not recognized as a closer, because it's obvious how bad he under pressure. One game winner, a ton of late game screwups, poor 4th quarter shooting-- Klay doesn't even have other things going on to trick us into thinking he's clutch. He's about as obviously unclutch to the eye test *and* stat test as I've ever seen.

That needs to change, and justifying that just makes one look like an unabashed Klay homer.

Oh, here's Barnes 4th quarters:
.511, .381 on 3's, and an eFG of .557

Strangely, his 4th quarters are his best by far, even better than his 2nd's even though he has the same usage.

[Onus]

i believe i said clutch but thanks for giving his whole 4th q. kobe also was very poor when he started in the league. airballing game winners. its fixable

[FNQ]

How many meaningful 4th Q minutes has Barnes played?

Think teams would be overly concerned jamming up Barnes like they are Klay? How about some team related splits in the 4th? How about clutch splits?

We can always get Monta back, he's a FA... His individual stats look great

[TaylorMonkey]

How many meaningful 4th Q minutes has Barnes played?

Think teams would be overly concerned jamming up Barnes like they are Klay? How about some team related splits in the 4th? How about clutch splits?

We can always get Monta back, he's a FA... His individual stats look great

We never see the lineup of Curry/Jack/Barnes/Lee/Bogut. That really needs to be tried if we're talking about comparing team stats and splits between Klay and Barnes.

Barnes has not-entirely-meaningless 4th Q minutes. He's shot 45-88 vs Klay's 58-183 for the season. He's produced about as much as Klay has in much more limited usage. That's hard to argue against.

But someone mentioned Klay playing the 3-- am I just missing the obvious and that fatigue and having to play against 3's on both ends in the 4th just isn't working for him? Maybe having to body up on bigger guys and shooting against length with tired legs is affecting his shot.

i believe i said clutch but thanks for giving his whole 4th q. kobe also was very poor when he started in the league. airballing game winners. its fixable

I hope so too. I just wanted it to be acknowledged. Also, I'm liking Klay's driving, finishing, and playmaking in this game.

[whocurrz]

I don't want to trade either guy. I think Klay is already a valuable piece (he can spread the floor and an improving defender), and Barnes has really solid potential and has handled his role well. And they're both cheap. I'm just saying that Klay's reputation as an elite shooter is a bit overblown. Guys like Wesley Matthews and Danny Green are valuable to many teams, but not unattainable by any means. I don't think Barnes is as easily replaceable as you say. Guys that we could use to fill his role are easily replaceable too. But I don't know of many 20 years olds with his build, athleticism, who have good shooting ability, and some post skills. He also has a great work ethic by all accounts. I see him being a more versatile player, and it would be silly to want to trade him based on the opportunities he's been given as a rookie. I'm sure many OKC fans thought that Harden had a low ceiling and should be traded after his first year when he averaged 9 PPG and minutes in the 20-25 range.

As far as the clutch thing goes, I know stats in these situations are hard to use to gauge a player. I care more about how Klay has shown multiple instances of folding at the end of games. Whether it be missed FTs, lazy passes, when the game gets down to the line and other guys turn it on and the game speeds up he still seems to kinda keep himself in cruise control and it has led to some mistakes that have cost us games. Missed shots happen more than made shots in general so I don't mind his FG% but some of these other mistakes are inexcusable. He's young, improving and has a chance to turn it around, but so far I would not entirely disagree with people assessing him as "unclutch".

[FNQ]

Jack of all trades, master of none < specialist

If Klay's game rounds out some more, you have a great shooting specialist that can D up and isn't much of a liability anywhere. I'll take that over an average-aboveaverage across the board player every day. Especially with how valuable a 3pt shooter is.

[Onus]

i dont think people realize that jack of all trades type players usually end up as journeymen, cuz they don't have a discernible skill to rely on game in and game out. While they do have their own value it's no where close to what Klay brings to the table. Klay is a rare talent, He may not have the potential to be the best player in the game, but every single team would love to have him on their team. There are very few deep threat 3 point shooters that aren't liabilities on defense. Most shooters can',t guard a bench, while Klay is drawing the toughest assignment night in and night out.

Truthfully Barnes might become the 3rd best sf in this draft, that Harkless kid is opening eyes.

[Left*My*Heart]

What impresses me about Klay, is how good Curry's numbers are when they are on the court together. There is something special being built between the two of them.

[whocurrz]

Jack of all trades, master of none < specialist

If Klay's game rounds out some more, you have a great shooting specialist that can D up and isn't much of a liability anywhere. I'll take that over an average-aboveaverage across the board player every day. Especially with how valuable a 3pt shooter is.

Not necessarily. Iguodala is known as a jack of all trades and I'd take him over the Wesley Matthews, Danny Greens, Brandon Rush's. Those guys all shoot as well or better than Klay and are as good or better defenders than Klay. I'd also draft MKG over Klay. I know every announcer and "analyst" hail Klay as a great shooter but statistics as well as watching games show me he's really a very good 3 point shooter, who cannot finish at the rim and struggles to create his own shot. I'd trust a 37 year old Ray Allen to get to the hoop and finish over Klay. He's an improving defender and I do believe he will won't be a liability in many facets of the game. This is a valuable player and not someone I want to shop as I would rather keep our youngsters improving and wait until Beans and Jefferson expire. But I just don't think the type of production we get from Klay is as irreplaceable as some people here do.

And how is Barnes already limited to being a career jack of all trades role player? He does a little of everything because that's what he's asked to do. He's a rookie who joined a playoff core and respects the pecking order. When he was at North Carolina and he was their best scorer on a stacked team but played within the team. Not every player is given the green light from the get go and proclaimed one of the greatest shooters ever by his coach before he sees a minute of action in the NBA. He's a versatile scorer who's very young and is a hard worker. He has a solid Def rebounding %, a solid 3 point percentage, solid fg% for his size and position, and when I have watched him has been a solid man to man defender. And he is doing it as a rookie. Just because nothing is astounding in such limited opportunities doesn't mean he can't be a specialist in any area or build upon those stats with more usage.

I would like to see both players given 3 years before we make any concrete determinations on what their career roles will be.

[Mylie10]

Jack of all trades, master of none < specialist

If Klay's game rounds out some more, you have a great shooting specialist that can D up and isn't much of a liability anywhere. I'll take that over an average-aboveaverage across the board player every day. Especially with how valuable a 3pt shooter is.

The good part is that we're in a good situation. Klay is a good young player. Barnes is only scratching the surface of what he can be.

I don't necessarily agree with your assesment of Barnes, but we should hopefully have plenty of time for this to be played out presumably. I think Barnes is being faulted SOMEWHAT for the role he asked to play. If not by you, then by some. I think as he matures his role will expand. I don't agree that finding guys like him are as easy as shoot first two guards.

I like both of their defense so far, but we need to clear something up....Klay has been excellent of late guarding 1's and 2's....not so much with physical 3's....that's a gripe for some.

Barnes is much better guarding the 3's, and i'd even like to see him get some run against some of the lighter 4's when teams go small.

I'm not really trying to overly slam Klay because he's been improving as the year has gone on, but I would definitely rather have a player like Iggy, Vazquez, or even Tyreke over Klay.....that's not a bad thing, it's just my preference. Those guys are better playmakers, and that's what I want there with Curry. I don't want Iggy playing the 3 as Onus has suggested.

I truly believe that with a higher volume of shots, Harrison will still be around 44-46% from the field, with more ft's and less 3's. But he is showing that he has that range at 3, its just not something that is overly needed right now.

Some of the complainers should be happy about Barnes fitting in and playing the role he's been asked. If he was some hot shot kid who called his own number all the time, at the detriment of his teams scheme, then that'd be something to really get on him about.

Same with Klay...People should be happy what he does bring, and also happy to see him get better in an area that could have been a problem. I'd like to see him not take so many shots, and maybe look for more dump off passes like one of the ones he had last night to Bogut.

[Left*My*Heart]

I'm very happy with what Barnes has brought to the table. I have seen improvement with him since the start of the season. He is only going to get better over the next couple of years. He hasn't fully developed physically and that is why I don't want him playing the 4. There is no need on this team, unless we go really small for him to be playing the 4. Green can assume that role if needed.

I can see him playing some 4 down the road, but right now, he is a 3.

[Mylie10]

I'm very happy with what Barnes has brought to the table. I have seen improvement with him since the start of the season. He is only going to get better over the next couple of years. He hasn't fully developed physically and that is why I don't want him playing the 4. There is no need on this team, unless we go really small for him to be playing the 4. Green can assume that role if needed.

I can see him playing some 4 down the road, but right now, he is a 3.

For the most part, totally agree, but there are instances where I think him being an athlete could work. Like if we really want to run somebody....and I'm only talking about a stinit and not something that is a regular thing.

But picture...Curry, Klay, Jack, Barnes, and Lee or a real center. That group could run and gun some fools. And Barnes will grab more boards if he plays a role closer to the basket.

[Left*My*Heart]

I could see Barnes in a small ball lineup at PF. I would be concerned about him getting abused physically as he gets abused by some of the larger SFs now. I think holding Barnes back a little is his confidence and we surely wouldn't want to see that damaged.

But you are right, playing the small lineup would pay a lot of other dividends for some brief stints.

I would throw the small ball lineup out there when the team is struggling...can't hurt?

[Onus]

Not necessarily. Iguodala is known as a jack of all trades and I'd take him over the Wesley Matthews, Danny Greens, Brandon Rush's. Those guys all shoot as well or better than Klay and are as good or better defenders than Klay. I'd also draft MKG over Klay. I know every announcer and "analyst" hail Klay as a great shooter but statistics as well as watching games show me he's really a very good 3 point shooter, who cannot finish at the rim and struggles to create his own shot. I'd trust a 37 year old Ray Allen to get to the hoop and finish over Klay. He's an improving defender and I do believe he will won't be a liability in many facets of the game. This is a valuable player and not someone I want to shop as I would rather keep our youngsters improving and wait until Beans and Jefferson expire. But I just don't think the type of production we get from Klay is as irreplaceable as some people here do.

Iggy's main skill he brings to the table every night is defense, he's a defensive specialist first, that is a jack of all trades on offense. But he does have a very discernible skill.

This year alone Klay has picked up new ways to finish around the basket. He's learning to be crafty in addition to his specialist skill of 3pt shooting. There's about 14 players in the NBA that can do bring what klay does, he's rather rare.

And how is Barnes already limited to being a career jack of all trades role player? He does a little of everything because that's what he's asked to do. He's a rookie who joined a playoff core and respects the pecking order. When he was at North Carolina and he was their best scorer on a stacked team but played within the team. Not every player is given the green light from the get go and proclaimed one of the greatest shooters ever by his coach before he sees a minute of action in the NBA. He's a versatile scorer who's very young and is a hard worker. He has a solid Def rebounding %, a solid 3 point percentage, solid fg% for his size and position, and when I have watched him has been a solid man to man defender. And he is doing it as a rookie. Just because nothing is astounding in such limited opportunities doesn't mean he can't be a specialist in any area or build upon those stats with more usage.

I would like to see both players given 3 years before we make any concrete determinations on what their career roles will be.

The thing with Barnes is that he doesn't bring anything similar game to game. He literally doesn't have one skill he can contribute each and every game. Can he work on one of them sure, but he has a long way to go. I think he'll be a solid pro. The main weakness i see in him is that he looks undersized out there. I think he compares a lot to marvin williams, Jeff Green type player, but Barnes is actually smaller than those guys.

[Mylie10]

He's effing 20

[510TWSS]

I agree with FNQ here. I'd rather move forward with Klay than Barnes for the reason being that Klay can be the more effective two way player and has shown it in spurts this year. Barnes has largely been an afterthought even to his own coach. You guys all cry out scheme, but if Barnes had the talent to be more than a role player we'd see it in instances, stretches of games where he takes over. We just don't see that. Barnes is at his best as a finisher in transition and spotting up. To me Barnes' game is a bit redundant to what we have already with Curry and Klay.

Barnes is what he was in college, good at a lot of things, but no elite skill set to hang his hat on each night. If teams stop our transition game, there goes Barnes' production. He needs to become a better and more versatile scorer in the half court set, which is where the Dubz struggle more. Now he has improved his ball handling since November, but it still is below average. If he could get to the line more or initiate an offense (like an Iggy could) then my tune might be different. It's not MJ's scheme, it's more Barnes' game that is the misfit in this case. Barnes is the same player he was in College.

[510TWSS]

Yeah, Haha Marvin Williams is the first guy I thought of seeing his game. Jeff Green is a good one too. Though Green is doing some things with the Celts'. Still pretty meh' overall though.