Two Point Guard revolution: the new building block of Magic?

MasterGMer · Post #1 » by **MasterGMer** » Mon Apr 8, 2013 11:14 pm

Can a 2-Point Guard Backcourt Actually Work in the NBA?

"While the traditional backcourt of a point guard and shooting guard remains the most common lineup utilized, teams such as the Los Angeles Clippers and Minnesota Timberwolves have begun to adopt a new system. Rather than signing a conventional shooting guard, the franchises have opted to run with a two-point guard system, thus enabling the teams to look to multiple players at once for both ball-handling and facilitating."

It was used before when Chuck Daly-led Detroit Pistons paired Isiah Thomas with Joe Dumars.

However, two point guard system has been widely criticized. How to guard a bigger and stronger 2 guard while maintaining the offensive output? The NBA 2 guard position has an average 6'3-6'6 height, while a PG would be quite shorter.

"Over the past 10 seasons, the San Antonio Spurs have won three NBA titles and have made it out of the first round of the postseason in all but one year. One of the major reasons for this consistent string of success is the backcourt pairing of Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili."

"Although Ginobili is considered to be an elite shooting guard, his greatest skill is his outstanding ball-handling. Paired with his point guard-caliber passing, the Spurs have become the quintessential dual point guard success story."

Back to my understanding, I have seen so many thread and post about Point Guard play or combo guard. The revolution of modern basketball really eliminate the traditional view of position. What is position? Is it all about matchup? Or is it all about size. What is a "point"? Is it playmaking ability or it is ball handling. To me, I've gotten so many different definitions from RealGM Magic posters. To me, definitions are clear and simple. It is all about skill set and matchup. It doesn't really matter a 6'5 Ball handler like Marcus Smart, as long he has the quickness and speed then he can be considered "1". It is all about matchup also. If his size can maintain the skill set. Then he is a legit ball player at NBA level.

"Other examples include the pairing of Kenny Smith and Clyde Drexler for the 1995 Houston Rockets and Jason Kidd with Jason Terry for the 2011 Dallas Mavericks. Unfortunately, we once again find that the the dual ball-handler system was not these championship-winning teams' greatest strength"

"For that reason, it's clear what the key to a two-point guard set truly is: At least one guard listed must be either an elite scorer or defender."

Back to Magic, can Orlando spark the revolution of basketball and stand on the edge of future?
Here is my proposal:

Plan A: Draft Marcus Smart or Exum

Plan B: Draft Aaron Gordon and Nik Stauskas at 12 and develop Stauskas to a Point Guard

Plan C: Trade for JLin + Parsons or Deron Williams. Deron Williams desperately wants out of Brooklyn. Rockets want Carmelo. They can't afford Jeremy Lin and Parsons.

That is all in the case Magic couldn't trade up and grab Wiggins. Even Wiggins or Parker somehow slide to 4, Magic can still root for Tyler Enis or Stauskas type of player at 12.

Or After 4th pick and 12th pick, Magic trade for Rajon Rondo and try to make the playoff 2014-2015 season.

Just my point of view.

OrlChamps2030 · Post #2 » by **OrlChamps2030** » Mon Apr 8, 2013 11:47 pm

Didn't we do this earlier this season when JJ and Jameer were here? They combined for about 12 apg in our backcourt IIRC.. Not bad. Didn't we also do this a few years ago with a prime Hedo and Jameer?

I'm not sure what is so revolutionary about having two ballhandlers in your starting lineup. Hell.. The year the Lakers beat us in the finals didn't they have FOUR ballhandlers in their starting lineup? Fisher, Kobe, Odom, and Gasol. The Heat won last year with three ballhandlers in their starting lineup.

MasterGMer · Post #3 » by **MasterGMer** » Mon Apr 8, 2013 11:54 pm

Zmill wrote:Didn't we do this earlier this season when JJ and Jameer were here? They combined for about 12 apg in our backcourt IIRC.. Not bad. Didn't we also do this a few years ago with a prime Hedo and Jameer?

I'm not sure what is so revolutionary about having two ballhandlers in your starting lineup. Hell.. The year the Lakers beat us in the finals didn't they have FOUR ballhandlers in their starting lineup? Fisher, Kobe, Odom, and Gasol. The Heat won last year with three ballhandlers in their starting lineup.

I think I made a mistake, the title should be "double ballhandlers" IMO. :clap:

I am pretty sure I meant "point" not "ball-handlers".

OrlChamps2030 · Post #4 » by **OrlChamps2030** » Mon Apr 8, 2013 11:57 pm

MasterGMer wrote:
Zmill wrote:Didn't we do this earlier this season when JJ and Jameer were here? They combined for about 12 apg in our backcourt IIRC.. Not bad. Didn't we also do this a few years ago with a prime Hedo and Jameer?

I'm not sure what is so revolutionary about having two ballhandlers in your starting lineup. Hell.. The year the Lakers beat us in the finals didn't they have FOUR ballhandlers in their starting lineup? Fisher, Kobe, Odom, and Gasol. The Heat won last year with three ballhandlers in their starting lineup.

I think I made a mistake, the title should be "double ballhandlers" IMO.

I am pretty sure I meant "point" not "ball-handlers".

Ah. Well the OP states modern basketball is eliminating the traditional positions, and if that is true, why would it matter if you had a ball handling guard and a ball handling wing as opposed to two ball handling guards?

MasterGMer · Post #5 » by **MasterGMer** » Tue Apr 9, 2013 12:05 am

Zmill wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
Zmill wrote:Didn't we do this earlier this season when JJ and Jameer were here? They combined for about 12 apg in our backcourt IIRC.. Not bad. Didn't we also do this a few years ago with a prime Hedo and Jameer?

I'm not sure what is so revolutionary about having two ballhandlers in your starting lineup. Hell.. The year the Lakers beat us in the finals didn't they have FOUR ballhandlers in their starting lineup? Fisher, Kobe, Odom, and Gasol. The Heat won last year with three ballhandlers in their starting lineup.

I think I made a mistake, the title should be "double ballhandlers" IMO.

I am pretty sure I meant "point" not "ball-handlers".

Ah. Well the OP states modern basketball is eliminating the traditional positions, and if that is true, why would it matter if you had a ball handling guard and a ball handling wing as opposed to two ball handling guards?

And that is why I used the word "point". Not "Point Guard"!

Being a "point" requires more skills than ball handling, period.

To me, different coaches have different basketball philosophies and definitions and it is totally arbitrary depends on who you talk to. Phil Jackson may have a basketball philosophy but he may have a hard time convincing Bob Knight what he's done is perfect. To me, when you get on the high level of reasoning and philosophy, everything is just open ended and debatable. And that's the beauty of things.Instead of saying no to things simply, why not just ask more "whys"?

Cigamodnalro · Post #6 » by **Cigamodnalro** » Tue Apr 9, 2013 1:36 am

You mean like Stephon Marbury and Steve Francis? Or like Monta Ellis and Brandon Jennings? Or like Jameer Nelson and Beno Udrih? 2 PG rotations seldom work unless both PGs are dominant.

Cigamodnalro · Post #7 » by **Cigamodnalro** » Tue Apr 9, 2013 1:37 am

I like the idea of a 3 SF lineup better

Smart/Harkless/Wiggins/Harris/Vucevic

MasterGMer · Post #8 » by **MasterGMer** » Tue Apr 9, 2013 1:40 am

Cigamodnalro wrote:You mean like Stephon Marbury and Steve Francis? Or like Monta Ellis and Brandon Jennings? Or like Jameer Nelson and Beno Udrih? 2 PG rotations seldom work unless both PGs are dominant.

That is what I am saying. There are some requirement in running this though. But would expand Magic's opportunity. We may never have an eye on Trey Burke before or would solidify our choice on Marcus Smart. Either way it would work.

The1llness · Post #9 » by **The1llness** » Tue Apr 9, 2013 5:50 am

I think the Magic should be really ballsy and go out there with a Five Center lineup. How could you possibly lose with five seven-footers?

RookieStar · Post #10 » by **RookieStar** » Tue Apr 9, 2013 8:46 am

The1llness wrote:I think the Magic should be really ballsy and go out there with a Five Center lineup. How could you possibly lose with five seven-footers?

THIS!!!1 I mean it worked before in the Allstar game wherein they had

C Yao
PF Shaq
SF TD
SG KG
G Dirk

Im sure we could do that as well

drsd · Post #11 » by **drsd** » Tue Apr 9, 2013 9:25 am

Cigamodnalro wrote:I like the idea of a 3 SF lineup better

Smart/Harkless/Wiggins/Harris/Vucevic

What is interesting about this roster is that Harris might be the primary ball handler.

..

drsd · Post #12 » by **drsd** » Tue Apr 9, 2013 9:27 am

The1llness wrote:I think the Magic should be really ballsy and go out there with a Five Center lineup. How could you possibly lose with five seven-footers?

Here's the start:

GreekFreakThe best-kept secret in NBA scouting circles in a secret no more.

Meet Giannis Antetokoumpo, a 6-10 point guard who already has signed to play professionally next season for Zaragoza in Spain.

Yes, a 6-10 point guard, a Greek freak of Nigerian heritage who could end up being a first-round draft pick after putting on quite a show in the Greek national junior tournament attended by Bryan Colangelo of the Toronto Raptors and Masai Ujiri of the Denver Nuggets.

SH link

..

Hotshot Hower · Post #13 » by **Hotshot Hower** » Tue Apr 9, 2013 10:25 am

drsd wrote:
The1llness wrote:I think the Magic should be really ballsy and go out there with a Five Center lineup. How could you possibly lose with five seven-footers?

Here's the start:
GreekFreakThe best-kept secret in NBA scouting circles in a secret no more.

Meet Giannis Antetokoumpo, a 6-10 point guard who already has signed to play professionally next season for Zaragoza in Spain.

Yes, a 6-10 point guard, a Greek freak of Nigerian heritage who could end up being a first-round draft pick after putting on quite a show in the Greek national junior tournament attended by Bryan Colangelo of the Toronto Raptors and Masai Ujiri of the Denver Nuggets.

SH link

..

The kid's a "freak"! WOW. My perception has changed drastically just after watching Draft Express' on him. If I'm Hennigan I trade down to attempt to get multiple picks in the 1st and this kid being one of them. I feel like I have a crystal ball but this kid will be special def after some seasoning for a year in Europe. So, draft his rights and a PG in this year's draft.

KingRobb02 · Post #14 » by **KingRobb02** » Tue Apr 9, 2013 1:50 pm

Cigamodnalro wrote:You mean like Stephon Marbury and Steve Francis? Or like Monta Ellis and Brandon Jennings? Or like Jameer Nelson and Beno Udrih? 2 PG rotations seldom work unless both PGs are dominant.

It kind of works this year with Steph Curry and Jarrett Jack.

MasterGMer · Post #15 » by **MasterGMer** » Tue Apr 9, 2013 5:07 pm

KingRobb02 wrote:
Cigamodnalro wrote:You mean like Stephon Marbury and Steve Francis? Or like Monta Ellis and Brandon Jennings? Or like Jameer Nelson and Beno Udrih? 2 PG rotations seldom work unless both PGs are dominant.

It kind of works this year with Steph Curry and Jarrett Jack.

Exactly, Golden State is one of the latest experiment on double point guards.

MoMM · Post #16 » by **MoMM** » Tue Apr 9, 2013 5:27 pm

MasterGMer wrote:
KingRobb02 wrote:
Cigamodnalro wrote:You mean like Stephon Marbury and Steve Francis? Or like Monta Ellis and Brandon Jennings? Or like Jameer Nelson and Beno Udrih? 2 PG rotations seldom work unless both PGs are dominant.

It kind of works this year with Steph Curry and Jarrett Jack.

Exactly, Golden State is one of the latest experiment on double point guards.

But at least one of them must be pass-first PG, 2 me-PG dont work (Francis+Marbury, Monta+Jennings, etc).

KingRobb02 · Post #17 » by **KingRobb02** » Tue Apr 9, 2013 7:18 pm

MoMM wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
KingRobb02 wrote:It kind of works this year with Steph Curry and Jarrett Jack.

Exactly, Golden State is one of the latest experiment on double point guards.

But at least one of them must be pass-first PG, 2 me-PG dont work (Francis+Marbury, Monta+Jennings, etc).

I don't know if you've been paying attention, but both of those guys are scoring point guards.

magicsanta · Post #18 » by **magicsanta** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:58 am

MasterGMer wrote:Can a 2-Point Guard Backcourt Actually Work in the NBA?

"While the traditional backcourt of a point guard and shooting guard remains the most common lineup utilized, teams such as the Los Angeles Clippers and Minnesota Timberwolves have begun to adopt a new system. Rather than signing a conventional shooting guard, the franchises have opted to run with a two-point guard system, thus enabling the teams to look to multiple players at once for both ball-handling and facilitating."

It was used before when Chuck Daly-led Detroit Pistons paired Isiah Thomas with Joe Dumars.

However, two point guard system has been widely criticized. How to guard a bigger and stronger 2 guard while maintaining the offensive output? The NBA 2 guard position has an average 6'3-6'6 height, while a PG would be quite shorter.

"Over the past 10 seasons, the San Antonio Spurs have won three NBA titles and have made it out of the first round of the postseason in all but one year. One of the major reasons for this consistent string of success is the backcourt pairing of Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili."

"Although Ginobili is considered to be an elite shooting guard, his greatest skill is his outstanding ball-handling. Paired with his point guard-caliber passing, the Spurs have become the quintessential dual point guard success story."

Back to my understanding, I have seen so many thread and post about Point Guard play or combo guard. The revolution of modern basketball really eliminate the traditional view of position. What is position? Is it all about matchup? Or is it all about size. What is a "point"? Is it playmaking ability or it is ball handling. To me, I've gotten so many different definitions from RealGM Magic posters. To me, definitions are clear and simple. It is all about skill set and matchup. It doesn't really matter a 6'5 Ball handler like Marcus Smart, as long he has the quickness and speed then he can be considered "1". It is all about matchup also. If his size can maintain the skill set. Then he is a legit ball player at NBA level.

"Other examples include the pairing of Kenny Smith and Clyde Drexler for the 1995 Houston Rockets and Jason Kidd with Jason Terry for the 2011 Dallas Mavericks. Unfortunately, we once again find that the the dual ball-handler system was not these championship-winning teams' greatest strength"

"For that reason, it's clear what the key to a two-point guard set truly is: At least one guard listed must be either an elite scorer or defender."

Back to Magic, can Orlando spark the revolution of basketball and stand on the edge of future?
Here is my proposal:

Plan A:
trade for Rajon Rondo and draft Marcus Smart or Burke

Plan B:
go into 2013 FA and try to lure Chris Paul and draft Marcus Smart or Burke.

Plan C:
Draft Marcus Smart and Peyton Silva in the second round and tank for 2013/2014 season and draft Wiggins

blah blah blah trade for Rondo or Chris Paul... Brilliant solution! I say we trade for Wade and James

RapHippy · Post #19 » by **RapHippy** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:54 am

I don't like 2PG but there are teams taht have 2 pg line ups and are playoff teams.

Chicago and the Knicks are on right now, they both play 2PGs even though they have 2 guards.

drsd · Post #20 » by **drsd** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:24 am

RapHippy wrote:I don't like 2PG but there are teams taht have 2 pg line ups and are playoff teams.

Chicago and the Knicks are on right now, they both play 2PGs even though they have 2 guards.

Two PGs, two SFs, and one center seems like a very unbalanced roster. Whaat might make more sense if Harris becomes the primary ball handler is for the Magic to not have a PG at all. Let's say the Magic draft McLemore, this will be an interesting lineup for Coach Vaughn to test: Afflalo (SG), McLemore (SG), Harkless (SF), Harris (point-forward), Vučević (C). Another roster could be Afflalo (SG), Harkless (SF), Harris (point-forward), Davis (PF), Vučević (C). The second roster in particular has much improved defense over what is going on with the current Magic rotation.

..