Cammo Counts Down The Top 100 MMA Fighters of All Time

Bernman · Post #241 » by **Bernman** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:50 pm

If nothing else this thread/experiment has generated plenty of discussion.

REDDzone · Post #242 » by **REDDzone** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:19 am

kdawg32086 wrote:I'm kinda surprised Frank Trigg isn't on your list.

List not done yet.

Cammo101 · Post #243 » by **Cammo101** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:12 am

#28 - Dominick Cruz

http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Dominick-Cruz-12107

The final WEC Bantamweight champion and current UFC Bantamweight champion, Dominick Cruz has not lost an MMA fight since March of 2007 and he is undefeated since his drop to 135 pounds. He holds a career record of 19-1, with a WEC record of 8-1 and a UFC record of 2-0. He has career victories over Uriah Faber, Demetrious Johnson, Scott Jorgensen, Brian Bowles, and Joseph Benavidez twice.

Post #244 » by **CPT** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:47 pm

Cruz has got a strong case to be as high as he is, if not higher.

That said, if you do the "whose career would you rather have had, Cruz or __________?" thing, I'm not sure how well he does.

REDDzone · Post #245 » by **REDDzone** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:49 pm

Bernman wrote:If nothing else this thread/experiment has generated plenty of discussion.

For sure.

Post #246 » by **CPT** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:01 pm

Indeed. And kudos to Cammo for not only doing the list, but trying to back up his picks even when they are clearly wrong

.

I look forward to the debate over one upcoming guy in particular.

Cammo101 · Post #247 » by **Cammo101** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:12 pm

CPT wrote:Indeed. And kudos to Cammo for not only doing the list, but trying to back up his picks even when they are clearly wrong .

I look forward to the debate over one upcoming guy in particular.

I have it on good authority that I have never been wrong.

Cammo101 · Post #248 » by **Cammo101** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:17 pm

#27 - Tito Ortiz

http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Tito-Ortiz-158

While Tito Ortiz's career record may look pedestrian at 16-11-1, his career has been anything but. Tito was the long time UFC Light Heavyweight champion and carried the company through the dark era as it's only real star. Tito holds victories over Ken Shamrock x3, Guy Mezger, Evan Tanner, Wanderlei Silva, Vitor Belfort, and Forrest Griffin.

Post #249 » by **CPT** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:29 pm

Thought he would be higher, but I'm kinda glad he's not.

Jasen777 · Post #250 » by **Jasen777** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:34 pm

CPT wrote:Cruz has got a strong case to be as high as he is, if not higher.

If he hadn't got injured, and had 2 or 3 more title defenses he'd probably be higher.

cowboyronnie · Post #251 » by **cowboyronnie** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:03 am

Yeah, it's painful to admit but Tito's got to be up here. Skills and in-the-cage success aside, if you consider most signigicant fighters in MMA history, he's arguably even top 10. I mean, the man managed to coast on those UFC 30-era wins all the way to co-headlining events in the 150s...on a huge streak of losses. That's some serious name-recognition achievement.

Post #252 » by **CPT** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:54 am

Jasen777 wrote:
CPT wrote:Cruz has got a strong case to be as high as he is, if not higher.

If he hadn't got injured, and had 2 or 3 more title defenses he'd probably be higher.

I don't know though. Would beating Faber and Barao/McDonald be enough to put him above a guy like Tito Ortiz in all-time rankings? IMO there's a bit of a ceiling to how big a figure you can be while competing in the BW division to this point in MMA.

That's why I kinda think I'd take a career like Cain's over his. Maybe even Mir (a lot of big fights over a long period of time).

SDM · Post #253 » by **SDM** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:02 am

The name recognition thing was huge with Tito. That shoots him up a number of spots.

In terms of in ring accomplishments in the annals of MMA, he beats out Cruz. Division specific and it's Cruz by a mile.

REDDzone · Post #254 » by **REDDzone** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:14 am

My understanding is that zuffa would have sank if not for Tito early on. His win list honestly isn't bad either, with guys like Vitor and Wand on his resume.

Jasen777 · Post #255 » by **Jasen777** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:21 am

SDM wrote:In terms of in ring accomplishments in the annals of MMA, he beats out Cruz. Division specific and it's Cruz by a mile.

I would agree, but if you're valueing titles and title defense...

Ortiz won the title (a win over Wanderlei Silva no less) and defended it 5 times. He lost the title in his 6th attempted defense (to Couture) and managed to claw back to another title shot (loss against Liddell) before going into his late career slump.

Cruz, lost a WEC title fight (to Faber at 145), the won the 135 WEC title (Bowles) and defended it twice, then won the the UFC title (Faber) and defended it once. Two of his defenses came against opponents who have since dropped to 125 (Benavidez and Johnson).

I could see the argument that Ortiz had the better peak.

Jasen777 · Post #256 » by **Jasen777** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:24 am

CPT wrote:That's why I kinda think I'd take a career like Cain's over his. Maybe even Mir (a lot of big fights over a long period of time).

I'd want the career that made me the most and in which I sustained the least long-term physical damage. I would assume the big guys make more money...

REDDzone · Post #257 » by **REDDzone** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:48 am

Its double-edged though because those big dudes probably take more damage as well. Well I guess it depends. What's worse, taking dozens or even hundreds of shots in the head by a lightweight or below, or taking 3-4 big shots from a Shane Carwin or something.

C) None of the above, please.

Bernman · Post #258 » by **Bernman** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:52 am

Jasen777 wrote:
SDM wrote:In terms of in ring accomplishments in the annals of MMA, he beats out Cruz. Division specific and it's Cruz by a mile.

I would agree, but if you're valueing titles and title defense...

Ortiz won the title (a win over Wanderlei Silva no less) and defended it 5 times. He lost the title in his 6th attempted defense (to Couture) and managed to claw back to another title shot (loss against Liddell) before going into his late career slump.

Cruz, lost a WEC title fight (to Faber at 145), the won the 135 WEC title (Bowles) and defended it twice, then won the the UFC title (Faber) and defended it once. Two of his defenses came against opponents who have since dropped to 125 (Benavidez and Johnson).

I could see the argument that Ortiz had the better peak.

I don't. I value opponents. If Hominick, Hardy, 205 lb Vitor, 205 lb Chael, etc.; can fight for titles, defending doesn't mean anything consistent as a result.

Beating Sinosic, Tanner, Kondo, Matyshenko, and 2002 Ken Shamrock doesn't mean the same as Benavidez (twice), Faber, Bowles, Mighty Mouse, and Jorgenson. Tito was UFC champ in the early 2000's when Pride was king and MMA was still a young sport. I think you have to weight being a top UFC fighter in 2011 much more than being one in 2001. Really the top 10 or so should be all current UFC champs and former Pride standouts (Fedor, Wand, Shogun, Big Nog, Rampage, Hendo, etc.). Liddell was a very good fighter, and a big name, but he got his butt kicked in Pride by Rampage, who came back and did it again in the UFC to end a long streak for the Iceman, if you thought the first fight was fluky and slanted toward the Pride vet.

Bernman · Post #259 » by **Bernman** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:00 am

REDDzone wrote:Its double-edged though because those big dudes probably take more damage as well. Well I guess it depends. What's worse, taking dozens or even hundreds of shots in the head by a lightweight or below, or taking 3-4 big shots from a Shane Carwin or something.

C) None of the above, please.

Yeah, that's tough to achieve if you're a big guy. Mir hasn't had a ton of fights (22), and doesn't seem like he's been hit all that much for a mixed martial artists, but he's taken a few sledgehammers from behemoths like Carwin and Lesnar, and doesn't seem to articulate himself as well as he used to as a result. He must have made a lot of money fighting for titles thru ages and in big events, also being a company man for UFC, but how long will he be able to enjoy the money.

I'd be a mid weight fighter like GSP. In spite of not being a big guy, he is a big draw. And he doesn't get hit all that much. You can be a big draw at a smaller weight too, where you don't take nearly as much damage. It's just a matter of having marketability and style. HW's are the biggest draw on average in boxing too, but the biggest individual draws right now fight in the 140's. And how is boxing different from MMA where smaller fighters can't possibly be watched by the masses?

REDDzone · Post #260 » by **REDDzone** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:06 am

Bernman wrote:Beating Sinosic, Tanner, Kondo, Matyshenko, and 2002 Ken Shamrock doesn't mean the same as Benavidez (twice), Faber, Bowles, Mighty Mouse, and Jorgenson. Tito was UFC champ in the early 2000's when Pride was king and MMA was still a young sport. I think you have to weight being a top UFC fighter in 2011 much more than being one in 2001.

I think it depends what we value. There are so many different ways to interpret the "top mma fighters". All of our criteria are going to be different and that is probably why we see so much dissent.

For example, I personally think you have to look at this relative to the era. So a guy like Royce hasn't been listed yet and for good reason, he is an all-time great. That said, beating guys like Gerard Gordeau doesn't mean anything compared to beating Faber/Jorgensen/etc but Royce should obviously be rated higher than Dom (imo).