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Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V

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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1301 » by hands11 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:27 am

Zonkerbl wrote:
popper wrote:Zonk - Why do you and Hands constantly associate corruption and evil with one political party? Only an idiot would believe such nonsense. Are you unaware that corruption is non-partisan and both parties and all individuals of the human race are capable. I don't mean to sound so harsh but sometimes I get the feeling that you and Hands are paid shills of the Democratic Party.


Hey, now, don't put words in my mouth. I accuse, and have consistently accused, the Tea Partiers in the Republican Party, of criminal stupidity, no more, no less. I do not apologize for that or my consistency in doing so. What they did was monumentally, criminally stupid, unless they really understood what they were doing, in which case it was terrorism. As someone who generally supports the Republicans economic agenda, I am really, really offended by this -- someone representing the party of smart economics doing something this stupid. Makes me mad.

And if you've been paying attention to my posts in this thread, generally I find the Republicans guilty of hypocrisy, because their business model requires them to be so, and I find the Democrats incompetent, because that is their model.

You're right, I should be complaining more loudly about the Democrats inability to get their crap together and pass climate change legislation, gun control, and legalize marijuana. Republicans have succeeded in steering the conversation exclusively into their court, another sign of Democrat incompetence, them being in charge and all.


That pretty much nails it.

I give Obama some credit for patience though. Eventually things get down. Given what he was up against, he would have pretty much had to act like a dictator if he was going to force things through. I wouldn't want to play him in chess.

But the Dems in general. They are like herding cats. They historically are the opposite of what Pops labeled them while the Bush/Channey regime were the masters at it.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1302 » by hands11 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:22 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/ ... ml?hpid=z4

The real reason corporate tax reform is going nowhere fast

Thoughts ?
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1303 » by popper » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:05 pm

hands11 wrote:http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/the-real-reason-corporate-tax-reform-is-going-nowhere-fast/2013/04/11/d5fc3202-a2db-11e2-9c03-6952ff305f35_story.html?hpid=z4

The real reason corporate tax reform is going nowhere fast

Thoughts ?


Very informative article. The public has a right and interest in knowing exactly how much income tax public corporations pay. I was unaware that this information in not currently disclosed.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1304 » by pineappleheadindc » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:18 am

.
Money is the source of all "evil" (trying not to engage in too much hyperbole) in politics.

Invest a few minutes to listen to this TED talk on the topic.
"Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart."
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1305 » by popper » Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:23 pm

pineappleheadindc wrote:.
Money is the source of all "evil" (trying not to engage in too much hyperbole) in politics.

Invest a few minutes to listen to this TED talk on the topic.


Enjoyed the video Pine. No doubt we can come up with a better system and the presentation you referenced is generally on the right track and thought provoking. One major flaw I see is that a large percentage (don't know if it's 20% or 40%) of Americans survive on govt. charity. If 60% of Americans are paying for govt. functions plus supporting the other 40% then why would they want to give equal say to those that don't help pay the bills (it's not logical). If logic rules, then this would put D's at a considerable disadvantage. If logic doesn't rule, then R's would suffer.

My preference would be to make political parties illegal and to term limit office holders. I would also limit contributions in a strict fashion.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1306 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:08 pm

STUPID GAT DAME IDIOT INCOMPETENT FRICKING FRICKING COWARDLY DEMOCRATS!!!! HOW CAN YOU FAIL TO PASS AN AMENDMENT THAT IS SUPPORTED BY A MAJORITY OF THE NRA????? WHY CAN'T YOU PUT THE PASSION INTO SAVING THE LIVES OF OUR CHILDREN AS YOU PUT INTO PROTECTING FRICKING MEDICARE????????

WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THIS FRICKING COUNTRY??????
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1307 » by pineappleheadindc » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:51 pm

.

LOL - Zonker, are you being sarcastic or is your post real?

Just in case it isn't sarcastic....

Here is the vote.. It went 54-46 IN FAVOR of background checks. But the filibuster threshold is 60 votes.

4 Dems voted against background checks + Harry Reid voted against it for procedural reasons only after it was clear it would lose (under Parlamentary rules, it allows him to bring the item up for a vote again). So those five Dems plus the 54 in favor of background checks still didn't clear the 60 vote threshold.

"FRICKING COWARDLY DEMOCRATS" didn't kill background checks.

Of course, I'm thinking that you already know this and your post, above, is satire. Right?
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1308 » by Induveca » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:01 pm

I'm witnessing a complete failure/inability of the current US executive branch to create any level of bipartisan cooperation.

A leader unable or unwilling to find common ground, and create constructive communication between his/her opponents is a failure.

This administration has been the most incompetent US administration I've witnessed in my lifetime. Zero cooperation.

In a corporate setting, the CEO is tasked with fostering extensive/constructive communication amongst departments to help ensure success. If he/she fails at this task?

Fired.

Unfortunately the gang mentality of US politics has Obama administration supporters blaming republicans for "refusing to cooperate". There have been plenty of US presidents in my lifetime who have brokered sweeping legislation with their opposing party. In fact, most....

Do republicans share in the blame? Without a doubt, for whatever reason they can't stand to deal with the US President. The specifics we'll never fully know. One thing that is for certain, responsibility for a failing organization always finds its way to the leader/CEO.

History will not look kindly at this administration, or for that matter the past two administrations. Stubborn and pigheaded in their own despicable ways.....
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1309 » by pineappleheadindc » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:13 pm

What IS the common ground on background checks, Indu? Just curious.

Write out a simple, 1,000 foot sketch of a common ground background check policy for us to see. And I'll guarantee you it wouldn't pass. Not because of Obama, but because 90% of Republicans won't vote for ANYTHING associated with gun control.

(And that's their preroggative as a policy matter. I'm just calling out the ongoing right-wing talking point about Obama not finding "common ground" for everyone".

OR, to put it another way: Roughly 90% of the American people support universal background checks. The watered down proposal put forth, in part, by the most right wing of Democrats gets voted down by 90% of Republicans.

It's Obama's fault, you say.

I got rained on this morning. Freaking Obama.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1310 » by pineappleheadindc » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:20 pm

Edited to add:

Indu, Congress does not work FOR the President. Nor is he their CEO. Constitutionally, they are two parts of the three equal branches of our government.

When Congress fails, it's cool to blame Harry Reid. Mitch McConnell. Nancy Pelosi. John Boehner. Any other number of people.
"Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart."

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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1311 » by Induveca » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:23 pm

pineappleheadindc wrote:What IS the common ground on background checks, Indu? Just curious.

Write out a simple, 1,000 foot sketch of a common ground background check policy for us to see. And I'll guarantee you it wouldn't pass. Not because of Obama, but because 90% of Republicans won't vote for ANYTHING associated with gun control.

(And that's their preroggative as a policy matter. I'm just calling out the ongoing right-wing talking point about Obama not finding "common ground" for everyone".

OR, to put it another way: Roughly 90% of the American people support universal background checks. The watered down proposal put forth, in part, by the most right wing of Democrats gets voted down by 90% of Republicans.

It's Obama's fault, you say.

I got rained on this morning. Freaking Obama.


Pine, to me it's not about a specific issue, it's the entire executive administration.

5 years of no cooperation, with plenty of rallying points available to force/create that cooperation.

I just can't see Bill Clinton or Ronald Reagan failing to capitalize on the horrific tragedies in the US surrounding firearms with substantial legislation. I suspect both of them would have raided the airwaves and swayed large portions of the populace, hence forcing their senators hands.

Obama and his staff? Nothing. No real emotion, no ability to create any sense of urgency with the population. No charisma....

Also for what it's worth I couldn't stand Bush........and loved Clinton. I'm completely party agnostic. So please don't throw out the standard US political party line defense. I'm neither and never have been....
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1312 » by pineappleheadindc » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:24 pm

If I don't cooperate with you at all based on personal animus, then it's YOUR fault for not demonstrating leadership?

Okay.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1313 » by montestewart » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:25 pm

Cue gratuitous reference to Obama messiah complex
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1314 » by Induveca » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:33 pm

pineappleheadindc wrote:Edited to add:

Indu, Congress does not work FOR the President. Nor is he their CEO. Constitutionally, they are two parts of the three equal branches of our government.

When Congress fails, it's cool to blame Harry Reid. Mitch McConnell. Nancy Pelosi. John Boehner. Any other number of people.


Again you are wrong, the President is specifically tasked with creating cooperation amongst the branches.

I was a C level exec of a large, very specialized tech firm. Firing everyone I didn't get along with was not an option, so I was forced to find common ground and keep things productive. I was more of a politician in that role than in any other job. Despite what most people think, in many firms firing people really isn't a viable/profitable option for a leader 99% of the time.

If I had refused to bridge communication amongst divisions the company would have ground to a halt and begun to collapse financially. Our creditors would have been paid late, our employees checks delayed........purely because I was unable to compromise and create productivity.

Sounds familiar.

Pine, the organizational structure of the Federal government may differ from corporations but the level of "ultimate" responsibility shared by a US President and corporate CEO mirror each other.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1315 » by Induveca » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:39 pm

pineappleheadindc wrote:If I don't cooperate with you at all based on personal animus, then it's YOUR fault for not demonstrating leadership?

Okay.


Actually yes, if tasked as the ultimate leader of an organization. Charisma, and the ability to be a chameleon in conversation is crucial to creating friendship/cooperation where none previously existed.

Politics invite too much emotion. Let's make it an algorithm...no advanced statistics here. Simple equation for the lowly masses.

Presidential Success
----------------------------
A. Leadership+productivity = success
B, Leadership+failed initiatives = failure

Clinton and Reagan I'd put squarely under A. Bush squarely under B.

Obama?
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1316 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:58 pm

Takes two to tango.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1317 » by dobrojim » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:00 pm

At the risk of being ad hominen, you cra cra Indu.

gotta agree with Pine/MS and probably a bunch of others who haven't replied.

The day BHO was inaugurated for his first term, the GOP leadership made a political
calculation that they wouldn't cooperate with him on ANYTHING. Please provide
a rational explanation of why this is BHO fault. Also you continue to use the analogy
of a CEO to the POTUS when it has previously been explained why that simply is NOT an
appropriate analogy.

for more try http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/02/28/1190504/-Obama-Derangement-Syndrome

There are valid criticism one could make about this Pres, just as there are about
any other Pres, but claiming it's his fault that republicans won't cooperate with him
simply isn't one of them.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1318 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:52 pm

I much, much, much prefer that Obama completely fail to reach an agreement, than agree to what the Republicans want.

I do get frustrated that in areas where Obama should be able to get an easy win he loses. But I blame the democratic party for being fractured and weak and incompetent. I don't blame Obama.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1319 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:00 pm

pineappleheadindc wrote:.

LOL - Zonker, are you being sarcastic or is your post real?

Just in case it isn't sarcastic....

Here is the vote.. It went 54-46 IN FAVOR of background checks. But the filibuster threshold is 60 votes.

4 Dems voted against background checks + Harry Reid voted against it for procedural reasons only after it was clear it would lose (under Parlamentary rules, it allows him to bring the item up for a vote again). So those five Dems plus the 54 in favor of background checks still didn't clear the 60 vote threshold.

"FRICKING COWARDLY DEMOCRATS" didn't kill background checks.

Of course, I'm thinking that you already know this and your post, above, is satire. Right?


Well, I read the same data and come to a completely different conclusion. The Dems needed a united front in order to defeat the filibuster. They should be able to on background checks, which everybody agrees with. But the defection of four Dems senators destroyed any chance of beating the filibuster. Shameful lack of party discipline on an issue that 90% of people agree with.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1320 » by Induveca » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:37 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:I much, much, much prefer that Obama completely fail to reach an agreement, than agree to what the Republicans want.

I do get frustrated that in areas where Obama should be able to get an easy win he loses. But I blame the democratic party for being fractured and weak and incompetent. I don't blame Obama.


Zonk, it isn't about what republicans want it's leveraging the vast power a president has via the media to FORCE compromise via the public, while maintaining an approachable demeanor to senators.

Delicate balancing act, but various presidents in my lifetime have done it eloquently with integrity.

Also the analogy of CEO to President is indeed valid, please re-read my posts instead of immediately dismissing. The tone of cooperation, ultimate responsibility etc....all eyes go to the leader.

In my eyes he's a massive failure, his administration has accomplished near nothing in 5 years other than having everyone hate each other and a refusal to cooperate.

To quote a few of you "it takes two to tango".

Happy to see the sequester in full effect though. Honestly there needs to be a much larger one and cut defense, spending for the poor etc....so obvious it's frustrating.

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