OT: Bombing / Explosions at the Boston Marathon

[mysticbb]

There's always an element of risk and these sorts of things are the product of factors that cannot be controlled... And happen in totalitarian states anyway. We do what we can within the bounds of morality as it stands: the Patriot Act is already a gross insult to a liberal democratic society as it stands, no need to go further.

I was born in a somewhat totalitarian state (former GDR), and have the experience of my ancestors to live through this. Having the state violating the human rights is no better than having some "crazy" people shooting others. A nation needs to find a balance to have the best combination of personal liberty and security. Violating the liberty of others (including harming them psychologically and physiologically) should be a crime independent of whoever is the violator, whether it is an individual or a group or the state via their representatives from the legislature, executive or judiciary. Seems like a pretty simple concept, if it wouldn't be for the human desire to seek power over others ...

[mysticbb]

This is really a sad day. This kid couldn't have wished for more. He accomplished putting an entire US city on lockdown. This is a terrorist dream.

I don't think that you can generalize that in such a fashion. Right now there are exceptional circumstances, in which a dangerous fugitive, who supposedly showed that he is willing to kill by all means (still a suspect, not convicted), running around and supposedly throwing explosives and uses gun violence. The terrorist dream would be, if the city would be looked up that way after that suspect was catched. If everyone is going back to business after that, he didn't accomplish anything. The city of Boston should repeat the marathon as soon as possible, not wait for another year. Just to show that the people are not frightened by such horrible actions. Show those terrorists that the own liberty is more important to the people, than the fear of getting injured or killed in such bombings. Never let fear and anger be your most important advicer.

The 2nd part must be the understanding of how an innocent child can become a murderer, and yes, I firmly believe that even those two suspects were once just innocent children.

[DefenseWins]

I want them to catch up alive and GRILL HIM. WHY WOULD HE DO SUCH THINGS at a young age. He seemed like a good student academically as well. How the hell did he also get all these weapons... it's not just guns either.

[AKfanatic]

This is really a sad day. This kid couldn't have wished for more. He accomplished putting an entire US city on lockdown. This is a terrorist dream.

I don't think that you can generalize that in such a fashion. Right now there are exceptional circumstances, in which a dangerous fugitive, who supposedly showed that he is willing to kill by all means (still a suspect, not convicted), running around and supposedly throwing explosives and uses gun violence. The terrorist dream would be, if the city would be looked up that way after that suspect was catched. If everyone is going back to business after that, he didn't accomplish anything. The city of Boston should repeat the marathon as soon as possible, not wait for another year. Just to show that the people are not frightened by such horrible actions. Show those terrorist that the own liberty is more important to the people.

The 2nd part must be the understanding of how an innocent child can become a murderer, and yes, I firmly believe that even those two suspects were once just innocent children.

Regardless of circumstances, these guys not only got media coverage for creating carnage but now have got an American city to shutdown. Fear is the goal, fear is accomplished. Two guys with homemade bombs shut down a city. That is not what you want others with thoughts of terror to see. Regardless as to it's the right or wrong thing to do (lockdown), it will be seen as a victory to many that wish to use terror as a weapon.


Edit: completely agree with pt. 2 and many of your overall assessments.

[Nobymoby]

I want them to catch up alive and GRILL HIM. WHY WOULD HE DO SUCH THINGS at a young age. He seemed like a good student academically as well. How the hell did he also get all these weapons... it's not just guns either.

Yeah, this whole ordeal doesn't add up. I would like to know what triggered this sudden change.

[Kampuchea]

I want them to catch up alive and GRILL HIM. WHY WOULD HE DO SUCH THINGS at a young age. He seemed like a good student academically as well. How the hell did he also get all these weapons... it's not just guns either.

Yeah, this whole ordeal doesn't add up. I would like to know what triggered this sudden change.

He is from a terrorist breeding ground according to this article
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... s/2095995/

[myosin]

is anyone else's radio down aswell?

[mysticbb]

Regardless of circumstances, these guys not only got media coverage for creating carnage but now have got an American city to shutdown. Fear is the goal, fear is accomplished. Two guys with homemade bombs shut down a city. That is not what you want others with thoughts of terror to see. Regardless as to it's the right or wrong thing to do (lockdown), it will be seen as a victory to many that wish to use terror as a weapon.

You are arguing very shortsighted. For sure, fear was accomplished, the second the explosives detonated, the fear was already there. If that is the only thing, terrorist care about, their goal is accomplished when the explosives detonated. But that is not their only goal. What they want is constant fear, using that fear to get their wishes (most times just to seek power over others and force their beliefs upon them). And that goal is a much bigger issue for them than the shortterm goal of spreading fear. The mid- and longterm actions are deciding was it a win or not for those terrorists, not the shortterm action now in order to protect the society (and thereby locking down the city of Boston). Once the subject is captured, the action afterwards determines that, not the current action. It would be foolish to declare that everyone should just go about their business, if there is an immediate danger. Such danger does not exist, once the suspect is arrested (or at least reasonable well located and/or surrounded).

[Kampuchea]

Terrorists want to make people live in fear. Unfortunately for them, courage and unity will be the end result.

People may be scared for a short time, but in the end we are a stronger nation.

[AKfanatic]

Regardless of circumstances, these guys not only got media coverage for creating carnage but now have got an American city to shutdown. Fear is the goal, fear is accomplished. Two guys with homemade bombs shut down a city. That is not what you want others with thoughts of terror to see. Regardless as to it's the right or wrong thing to do (lockdown), it will be seen as a victory to many that wish to use terror as a weapon.

You are arguing very shortsighted. For sure, fear was accomplished, the second the explosives detonated, the fear was already there. If that is the only thing, terrorist care about, their goal is accomplished when the explosives detonated. But that is not their only goal. What they want is constant fear, using that fear to get their wishes (most times just to seek power over others and force their beliefs upon them). And that goal is a much bigger issue for them than the shortterm goal of spreading fear. The mid- and longterm actions are deciding was it a win or not for those terrorists, not the shortterm action now in order to protect the society (and thereby locking down the city of Boston). Once the subject is captured, the action afterwards determines that, not the current action. It would be foolish to declare that everyone should just go about their business, if there is an immediate danger. Such danger does not exist, once the suspect is arrested (or at least reasonable well located and/or encircled).

I don't completely disagree, however one goal is to have others see your accomplishment and follow in your footsteps. You do that with mass media. These guys have shown others the simplicity of terror. No need for planes and buildings against the US. Just a few pipe bombs and high traffic, think black friday and a couple pipe bombs. Will Boston wake up tomorrow and go back to business? Yes. Will there be a small amount of liberties taken under the guise of safety? You can bet on it.

[Antrim]

Somebody explains to me why the #1 and #2 fugitives in the world would rob a 7/11 the day their pictures are everywhere in the news?

[The Skyhook]

I want them to catch up alive and GRILL HIM. WHY WOULD HE DO SUCH THINGS at a young age. He seemed like a good student academically as well. How the hell did he also get all these weapons... it's not just guns either.

Young age or old age, it shouldn't matter. You shouldn't do something like this at all. If this kid was doing well in school and had a good amount of friends I'm thinking it was the older brother who influenced him to do this.

[Viatical]

The police work on this has been phenomenal.

1. Investigators picked through debris and were able to determine the colors of the backpacks that held the bombs.

2. They also correctly reasoned that the bomb materials would be heavy, so the packs would have to be large, and the men carrying them big and strong as well.

3. They pore through hundreds if not thousands of hours worth of security camera and cell phone video footage looking for big guys carrying big backpacks.

4. Correctly identify the Tsarneavs as suspects, one of whom is a heavyweight boxer and the other a wrestler. Big guys with big packs.

5. Turns out they hail from war-torn Chechnya, home to Islamist separatists, where bomb-making is a commonly taught skill.

6. And authorities pulled all this off in a matter of days? My god, that is impressive.

[Viatical]

Somebody explains to me why the #1 and #2 fugitives in the world would rob a 7/11 the day their pictures are everywhere in the news?

Given the closeness of these recent events to the time when their pictures were published as suspects yesterday, they were probably identified, panicked, and needed to get money and a car quickly.

[mysticbb]

I don't completely disagree, however one goal is to have others see your accomplishment and follow in your footsteps. You do that with mass media. These guys have shown others the simplicity of terror. No need for planes and buildings against the US. Just a few pipe bombs and high traffic, think black friday and a couple pipe bombs.

I agree with that, but that's part of our society. The constant wish to be informed about everything, a relative open projection of the actions, is something the society desires. I can understand that desire. But that is not just a bad thing in a sense, that this gives such terrorists a plattform to present their "accomplishments", it is also a system which secures liberty, if the state can't just lock up someone without having the society at least have a chance to notice it. Such event creates a mass public interest, it always will. You can't just try to put a rag over it and ignore the psychological consquences for the people. In fact, you have to those consequences into account and create an atmosphere in which fear and anger have a lesser chance to be the main drivers behind the average action of the whole society.

If the reports about those subjects being from Chechnya is true, it may very well the case, that both are educated by fear and anger. The russian repressors work/ed into the hands of those religious extremists, creating people who are justifying their actions by some supposed greater cause. They seem to accuse basically everyone, who doesn't share their beliefs, of being collaborators to a system which is repressing their personal beliefs.

Will Boston wake up tomorrow and go back to business? Yes.

I hope so. I even hope, that something good can come out of this, if the people are trying to understand the action and not let fear and anger dictate their thinking.

Will there be a small amount of liberties taken under the guise of safety? You can bet on it.

Well, unfortunately I have to agree, if we look at the consequences of previous terrorist attacks.

[DwightrulestheEast]

I find myself incapable to understand why people who are given a home and a chance for a better life spit on the community who tried to provide them with a better life and do things like these two guys did. Horrible, absolutely horrible. This surmounts my mental capacity.

[mysticbb]

The police work on this has been phenomenal.

Indeed. Just shows that if people are working together on a common goal, they can accomplish a lot within a short timeframe. Critizing the police now, because they somewhat lost one of the suspects, seems not justified. The circumstances might just have been not in the favour of those police officers chasing the suspect. And human errors can also happen occasionally, which shouldn't be used to make "fun" of those officers, but rather to learn from that.

[Antrim]

Somebody explains to me why the #1 and #2 fugitives in the world would rob a 7/11 the day their pictures are everywhere in the news?

Given the closeness of these recent events to the time when their pictures were published as suspects yesterday, they were probably identified, panicked, and needed to get money and a car quickly.

Maybe I'm used to the smart terrorists in movies, but you'd think they'd have expected something like this.

The police work on this has been phenomenal.

Indeed. Just shows that if people are working together at a common goal, they can accomplish a lot within a short timeframe. Critizing the police now, because they somewhat lost one of the suspects, seems not justified. The circumstances might just have been not in the favour of those police officers chasing the suspect. And human errors can also happen occasionally, which shouldn't be used to make "fun" of those officers, but rather to learn from that.

The most surprising thing to me has been the way the authorities have controlled the news flow. The pictures released to the public didn't really show the faces of the suspects that well, although they DID have pictures where you could clearly see the face and easily recognize them (they have released them now). It seems like they released the pictures with the only intent of having them come out, and they ALREADY knew who they were.

[mopper8]

The police work on this has been phenomenal.

1. Investigators picked through debris and were able to determine the colors of the backpacks that held the bombs.

2. They also correctly reasoned that the bomb materials would be heavy, so the packs would have to be large, and the men carrying them big and strong as well.

3. They pore through hundreds if not thousands of hours worth of security camera and cell phone video footage looking for big guys carrying big backpacks.

4. Correctly identify the Tsarneavs as suspects, one of whom is a heavyweight boxer and the other a wrestler. Big guys with big packs.

5. Turns out they hail from war-torn Chechnya, home to Islamist separatists, where bomb-making is a commonly taught skill.

6. And authorities pulled all this off in a matter of days? My god, that is impressive.

This is true and also highlights how ridiculous (IMO) the reddit and 4chan citizen investigations were. They had access to far less information, and were vulnerable to far more "groupthink" problems. Already ended up smearing the names of at least 3 people.

[Viatical]

Maybe I'm used to the smart terrorists in movies, but you'd think they'd have expected something like this.

Definite disparity between movie terrorists and these guys. Not only did the brothers fully expect to not be identified and to get away with this, but based on the other bombs and bomb-making materials they still had, they also expected to continue to attack other targets unimpeded. It's fortunate this escalated before that could happen.