Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part III

BruceO · Post #1061 » by **BruceO** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:29 pm

i know shabazz's flaws being mentioned may be legit. The reason i'd take him personally is the same reason i'd take drummond if beal wasn't there last year. If he can play SG, just like drummond he'll be physically imposing for his position. He has a high motor and a killer instinct while having Nick youngs size. His age doesn't bother me, his style of play may change. He has potential to change his body and become more athletic and change his style of scoring as he did slightly during college season. Nate mentioned his numbers and TS%. He showed why the glass is half empty. On the flip side managing to do that as a freshman in UCLA where players stats are deflated relative to NBA, where the system isn't good, where players were freezing each other out, where he had an ankle sprain and came in out of shape because of it plus uncertainty of whether he'll play or not..my only questions about him really is whether he can get back to his natural playing weight and become as athletic as he used to be.

also will see how much time we have to let him improve in other areas or with the way the team is set up with wall we may not need that in things like playmaking. Improved ball handling would assist him though

Mizerooskie · Post #1062 » by **Mizerooskie** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:31 pm

nate33 wrote:
Mizerooskie wrote:I don't get the big deal about his age. So what if he's a year older? There's no magic physical maturation bullet that hits you on your 20th birthday. As long as he's got the same amount of basketball development as a 19 year-old, it makes absolutely no difference, IMO. I don't know the full details of his early life history, but I'm guessing he was just started in school a year late.

You want to drop him due to video analysis of his game? Fine. You want to drop him due to unimpressive peripheral stats? Fine. Both are perfectly valid reasons.

Dropping him due to age is just silly.

I think age is relevant because of the style of his game. He's not really a highly skilled, fundamental player. His one refined skill is that he's a pretty good shooter. Mostly, he is just a very physical, slashing type of player who takes advantage of his strength advantage against his competition. When we're talking about 18, 19 and 20 year-olds, that one extra year gives him an advantage in the strength department. Take that strength advantage away and I don't think he's got much game.

There's absolutely no way you can definitively say that the one year gives him the advantage in the strength department. Everyone develops at different speeds.

Does he have additional weight training because he's a year older? Probably not. Again, his basketball training doesn't have a year extra development than we thought it had.

DCZards · Post #1063 » by **DCZards** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:32 pm

sfam wrote:
DCZards wrote:Are you implying we should snatch up anyone with character issues who doesn't live up to expectations? If so, you should change your name to "Mr. Contrarian".

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. But I do find it interesting that some of the same posters who are making a big deal out of Shabazz's "character issues" have no problem suggesting that the Zards figure out a way to obtain the biggest a**hole in the NBA--Demarcus Cousins.

Mizerooskie · Post #1064 » by **Mizerooskie** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:33 pm

DCZards wrote:Has character issues. Didn't live up to expectations coming out of high school. Hmm...where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, that Drummond kid from last year's draft.

Different characters issues though. Drummond's perceived issue was a lack of motor, Shabazz has always been described as a guy that plays hard. Don't think they're comparable.

pancakes3 · Post #1065 » by **pancakes3** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:39 pm

It's not that Shabazz is old but rather his HS "legacy" of being an unstoppable scorer was artificially boosted by being older. If you took his Freshman year at face value and compared it to the other SF's in the draft it becomes less impressive.

Shabazz's 18 ppg on 53% TS (44/38/71) vs Porter's 16 ppg on 59% TS (48/42/77) vs Caldwell-Pope's 19ppg on 58% TS (44/38/80) vs CJ Leslie's 15ppg on 55% TS (52/33/61)...

and the "He has a true NBA skill in scoring" looks to be less of a sure thing.

sfam · Post #1066 » by **sfam** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:41 pm

DCZards wrote:
sfam wrote:
DCZards wrote:Are you implying we should snatch up anyone with character issues who doesn't live up to expectations? If so, you should change your name to "Mr. Contrarian".

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. But I do find it interesting that some of the same posters who are making a big deal out of Shabazz's "character issues" have no problem suggesting that the Zards figure out a way to obtain the biggest a**hole in the NBA--Demarcus Cousins.

To be clear I am absolutely NOT in the "Get the biggest A**hole in the NBA, Demarcus Cousins to the Wizards" camp. The dude has the possibility of having a Ron Artest style nuclear meltdown. From a team that recently had a showdown in the OK corrall incident in our locker room, I want no part of that again.

sfam · Post #1067 » by **sfam** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:44 pm

Mizerooskie wrote:
DCZards wrote:Has character issues. Didn't live up to expectations coming out of high school. Hmm...where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, that Drummond kid from last year's draft.

Different characters issues though. Drummond's perceived issue was a lack of motor, Shabazz has always been described as a guy that plays hard. Don't think they're comparable.

Different character issues, yes. But not necessarily better. My biggest concern with Shabazz is how would he feel coming off the bench for the next 4 years? Will he be OK with that, or does he already assume he'll be in the HOF some day? And can you trust what he says during his interview?

BruceO · Post #1068 » by **BruceO** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:45 pm

a few more things. OJ mayo has been mentioned, but OJ never had bazz size, length and motor which is critical. Bazz tries to physically dominate and is driven. He is also a blue chip prospect having dropped 35 from what i hear once on wiggins ( have to confirm). Only a few months ago he was a top prospect, if this dude drops without a doubt okc will snap him up and they'll be scary. Yet we are built the same way and could be scary too..

when it comes to pg's my top choice now is dennis schroeder. He has a lot of rondo in him. He's projected early 20's late teens and may rise. Had a really good game in world select tourney. Would trade both second rounders to get in his range.

i also would do 2014 first round unprotected plus seraphin and maybe booker for cousins. I'd also give arizas one year rental to okc for their draft pick (he can help against miami and others) and get adetokoubo.
wall.schroeder.price. beal.muhammad. barbosa. martell. adetokoubo. vesely. singleton. nene. okafor. cousins.

i'd then trade veselys expiring mid season or let it expire. resign okafor for less and use the differences to get a stretch forward

Post #1069 » by **nate33** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:54 pm

DCZards wrote:Has character issues. Didn't live up to expectations coming out of high school. Hmm...where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, that Drummond kid from last year's draft.

Drummond was a surprise, but he was an exception. You can use the Drummond excuse for anybody that doesn't meet expectations at the college level, that doesn't mean it always applies. If you apply that argument all the time, then what's the point of even using college basketball experience as a method of talent evaluation?

Besides, I don't think the Drummond analogy holds. Drummond was still a freak athlete with ridiculous length and quickness. Also, it's expected that big men develop later. You take your chances with guys like that because there's so few tall, agile, coordinated people in this world. Even a raw as hell prospect like Biyombo went #7.

Shabazz doesn't have these advantages. Physically, he's a bit of a tweener, undersized for SF and not quick enough and not a good enough ball handler for SG. His production has been disappointing with very mediocre efficiency. His athletic profile isn't particularly impressive other than his wingspan. If you took away the hype from high school, he would be a completely unremarkable player and everyone would wonder why on earth he declared for the draft.

pancakes3 · Post #1070 » by **pancakes3** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:23 pm

BruceO wrote: He is also a blue chip prospect having dropped 35 from what i hear once on wiggins

1 - It'd be interesting to see what Wiggins scored on Shabazz
2 - Shabazz is 2 years older than Wiggins.
3 - From what I've read on Wiggins, he's not exactly a junk-yard-dog type defender.

AFM · Post #1071 » by **AFM** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:51 pm

This is what I could find
http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports. ... ammad-usa/

Undeclared senior Shabazz Muhammad, who is currently considering Kentucky, UCLA, and Duke, scored 35 points on 12-for-27 shooting, setting the Nike Hoop Summit single-game scoring record.

DCsOwn · Post #1072 » by **DCsOwn** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:39 pm

Acclimating himself to his future place of employment?

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sp ... caps-game/

Mizerooskie · Post #1073 » by **Mizerooskie** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:40 pm

pancakes3 wrote:It's not that Shabazz is old but rather his HS "legacy" of being an unstoppable scorer was artificially boosted by being older. If you took his Freshman year at face value and compared it to the other SF's in the draft it becomes less impressive.

Shabazz's 18 ppg on 53% TS (44/38/71) vs Porter's 16 ppg on 59% TS (48/42/77) vs Caldwell-Pope's 19ppg on 58% TS (44/38/80) vs CJ Leslie's 15ppg on 55% TS (52/33/61)...

and the "He has a true NBA skill in scoring" looks to be less of a sure thing.

No it wasn't artificially boosted by being older. Should players with early September birthdays be discounted because they're older than their classmates? Of course not.

Again, you can't assume that he had any significant physical edge that he wouldn't have had if he were a year younger. He didn't get an extra year of strength training or basketball development.

It's a non-issue, other than bringing about some character concerns.

sfam · Post #1074 » by **sfam** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:43 pm

Mizerooskie wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:It's not that Shabazz is old but rather his HS "legacy" of being an unstoppable scorer was artificially boosted by being older. If you took his Freshman year at face value and compared it to the other SF's in the draft it becomes less impressive.

Shabazz's 18 ppg on 53% TS (44/38/71) vs Porter's 16 ppg on 59% TS (48/42/77) vs Caldwell-Pope's 19ppg on 58% TS (44/38/80) vs CJ Leslie's 15ppg on 55% TS (52/33/61)...

and the "He has a true NBA skill in scoring" looks to be less of a sure thing.

No it wasn't artificially boosted by being older. Should players with early September birthdays be discounted because they're older than their classmates? Of course not.

Again, you can't assume that he had any significant physical edge that he wouldn't have had if he were a year younger. He didn't get an extra year of strength training or basketball development.

It's a non-issue, other than bringing about some character concerns.

That's a crazy comment to anyone who has kids. Kids develop, emotionally, physically and mentally. One year definitely makes a difference.

Post #1075 » by **nate33** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:54 pm

Mizerooskie wrote:No it wasn't artificially boosted by being older. Should players with early September birthdays be discounted because they're older than their classmates? Of course not.

False analogy. A September birthday would be 5 months older than the average person in his class. Shabazz has a November birthday the year before. So he is 15 months older than the average person in his class. If you don't think that makes any difference, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Mizerooskie · Post #1076 » by **Mizerooskie** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:56 pm

sfam wrote:
Mizerooskie wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:It's not that Shabazz is old but rather his HS "legacy" of being an unstoppable scorer was artificially boosted by being older. If you took his Freshman year at face value and compared it to the other SF's in the draft it becomes less impressive.

Shabazz's 18 ppg on 53% TS (44/38/71) vs Porter's 16 ppg on 59% TS (48/42/77) vs Caldwell-Pope's 19ppg on 58% TS (44/38/80) vs CJ Leslie's 15ppg on 55% TS (52/33/61)...

and the "He has a true NBA skill in scoring" looks to be less of a sure thing.

No it wasn't artificially boosted by being older. Should players with early September birthdays be discounted because they're older than their classmates? Of course not.

Again, you can't assume that he had any significant physical edge that he wouldn't have had if he were a year younger. He didn't get an extra year of strength training or basketball development.

It's a non-issue, other than bringing about some character concerns.

That's a crazy comment to anyone who has kids. Kids develop, emotionally, physically and mentally. One year definitely makes a difference.

It's not crazy at all. I had a significant growth spurt when I was 16, and didn't fill out until I was an upperclassmen in college (21-22). There was virtually no difference between me at 19 and me at 20. If you'd made the assumption with me that I had more a strength advantage at 20 that I didn't have at 19, you'd be wrong. Everyone matures at different rates, and it's typically incremental maturation after puberty.

We're not talking about someone going through puberty here, or a child that's developing rapidly. We're talking about someone several years past puberty, who's more than likely done growing (height-wise).

Mizerooskie · Post #1077 » by **Mizerooskie** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:58 pm

nate33 wrote:
Mizerooskie wrote:No it wasn't artificially boosted by being older. Should players with early September birthdays be discounted because they're older than their classmates? Of course not.

False analogy. A September birthday would be 5 months older than the average person in his class. Shabazz has a November birthday the year before. So he is, on average 15 months older than the average person in his class. If you don't think that makes any difference, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Please, provide even anecdotal evidence that someone 15 months older without additional strength or basketball training has a physical advantage over his peers as a 19 year old high school senior.

Post #1078 » by **Ruzious** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:19 pm

Mizerooskie wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Mizerooskie wrote:No it wasn't artificially boosted by being older. Should players with early September birthdays be discounted because they're older than their classmates? Of course not.

False analogy. A September birthday would be 5 months older than the average person in his class. Shabazz has a November birthday the year before. So he is, on average 15 months older than the average person in his class. If you don't think that makes any difference, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Please, provide even anecdotal evidence that someone 15 months older without additional strength or basketball training has a physical advantage over his peers as a 19 year old high school senior.

If anything, Bazz matured physically EARLER than most people. He was pretty much fully developed playing against guys who weren't. He had a big advantage.

Post #1079 » by **nate33** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:27 pm

Mizerooskie wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Mizerooskie wrote:No it wasn't artificially boosted by being older. Should players with early September birthdays be discounted because they're older than their classmates? Of course not.

False analogy. A September birthday would be 5 months older than the average person in his class. Shabazz has a November birthday the year before. So he is, on average 15 months older than the average person in his class. If you don't think that makes any difference, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Please, provide even anecdotal evidence that someone 15 months older without additional strength or basketball training has a physical advantage over his peers as a 19 year old high school senior.

Sure. I was bigger and stronger at age 19 than I was at age 18.

sfam · Post #1080 » by **sfam** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:36 pm

Mizerooskie wrote:It's not crazy at all. I had a significant growth spurt when I was 16, and didn't fill out until I was an upperclassmen in college (21-22). There was virtually no difference between me at 19 and me at 20. If you'd made the assumption with me that I had more a strength advantage at 20 that I didn't have at 19, you'd be wrong. Everyone matures at different rates, and it's typically incremental maturation after puberty.

We're not talking about someone going through puberty here, or a child that's developing rapidly. We're talking about someone several years past puberty, who's more than likely done growing (height-wise).

I have a 19 year old son right now. He's significantly different than he was at 18, and same for 17. Most people going through these changes don't notice them. But guaranteed those around them do. This really isn't debatable.

EDIT: apologies - he just turned 20 a few weeks back. Same thing though. As a parent, its amazing to see the changes.