Derrick Rose Thread #13 - Acceptance

[ChiCitySPORTS#1]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNYjaafw07s[/youtube]

[BullsGate]

Does Reinsdorf strike you as someone that will allow his team to be bullied?

The Bulls have had a good team, a really good team, I'm not sure what the Team Thorn whine would be.

If they want another big sexy name, since Reg is maybe from the ESPN/NBA Y2K generation, the best way for that is for Derrick to recruit.

It's John Paxson and Gar Forman job to bring (big name) free agents to Chicago, not D.Rose.

[Googjob]

It's John Paxson and Gar Forman job to bring (big name) free agents to Chicago, not D.Rose.

It's Derrick's job to play.

[kyrv]

It's John Paxson and Gar Forman job to bring (big name) free agents to Chicago, not D.Rose.

It's Derrick's job to play.

His statement is opinion, yours is fact.

[Wingy]

I've also thrown out the full max thing as a criticism in the past, but its real real easy for you and I to say that from the sidelines. If he's supposed to sacrifice that, why can't ownership sacrifice and say, buy a late first round pick...ever? Why is it all on Derrick Rose?

kyrv, everyday when I check this board, you are posting in the most recent pages of this thread and it would be unfair to say you are anti-Rose, but my perception is that you've lowered your opinion of him through this ACL saga. I'm genuinely curious to know why you are so engaged in this situation and seemingly critical of Rose while you are standing up for an ownership group in the other thread that clearly made cost cutting moves that made the team worse this year.

I'll just pretend ownership has only been smart / efficient in the past. So with that the scoreboard is currently tied at one w/both Rose and ownership hurting the team for this season only. So why is your daily commentary aimed at Rose only? Why is it that the star player must put himself on the line, but not those responsible for the whole thing? Why do you seem to hold Rose to a higher std than Jerry and the board?

[the ultimates]

So now the argument for Rose delaying his rehab or should I say going in a different direction is because of the way he plays? There have been no reported complications with surgery or any setbacks during rehab so why go off course now? If it really is a mental issue this tough then instead of him listening to the Tim Hardaway's of the world he should talk to Rubio, Shumpert and Peterson because I'm sure they had some of the same problems. Then another new one is well because of the injuries the Bulls haven't practiced as much or as hard. If that's the case then I don't see how possibly playing in pick up games or the summer league against rookies and bums is going to help get over the mental hurdle either. Unless their is an actual physical reason which he has said there isn't and Team Rose hasn't leaked one out then he should be playing.

[JeremyB0001]

so because we have this entire pool of ACL recoveries to look at, we then ignore the other thing Cole told us: "everyone is different."

I don't think anyone is ignoring that everyone is different. No one is saying "Derrick must come back in 6.5 months, no more or no less, because that's how long it took Jamal Crawford to return." No one is saying "Derrick must return within one week of Iman Shumpert because they were injured on the same day." Rather, people are saying "Let's compare Derrick to the different recovery times of the different athletes that returned from this injury and use that to create a broad range of the time period within when it would be reasonable for Derrick to return."

You're misconstruing Dr. Cole's remark to mean that Derrick's recovery cannot be expected to resemble the recovery of any other athlete to ever tear an ACL. He said nothing of the sort. And it would have been shocking if he did considering how much science and medicine relies on empirical data.

And then based on what Derrick is, multiply that Jason Smith "pounding" a few times..based on style of play.

Derrick is the first superstar, and perhaps the first guy who is so reliant on jumpstopping with reckless force.

All that means his rehab can be preset to be something requiring more caution than what we've seen in previous players' rehabs.

What doctor or respected trainer has said that Derrick will need longer to return to games due to his style of play and/or athleticism? What expert has said that delaying return to play is more cautious, i.e. improves the chances of a full recovery and/or decreases the chances of injury? I've only seen these theories from layman Bulls fans on the internet. That doesn't cut it. These are issues for medical experts. It is a huge leap to say that, because Dr. Cole said that everyone's (not just Derrick's) recovery is unique, that he somehow indicated that Derrick's recovery would take longer than other players for these reasons or other reasons. You could just as easily assert that Dr. Cole indicated that Derrick would return early because he's an elite athlete and that leads to a speedy recovery.

Point being: you cant tell me Derrick's rehab was supposed to be A, B, C. You just dont know. You have hints and past things to look at with other players-- but you do not have the facts on this particular instance. You want to, but dont.

That's not true. We know when Derrick was medically cleared, we know what he's been doing in practice, we know how his teammates think he's looked in practice, we've seen him warm up before games, we've heard him say his roadblocks are not physical, we've had reports that his hamstrings were burning at one point, we know that Derrick's team is the last one who needs to provide clearance for his return, and the list goes on. We have quite a few facts. Just about the only facts we don't have is the reason(s) that Derrick has chosen not to return. And that's damning for Derrick. It suggests that Derrick doesn't want the public to know why he hasn't returned. It suggests that his reasons aren't very persuasive. It suggests that he has something to hide.

And if not medical reasons alone, then the fact that Rose is a superstar made things different.

I'm very curious to know what you mean by this. What are the non-medical reasons that would warrant Derrick's failure to return? It would seem to be that either there are medical reasons preventing his return and he's justified in sitting or there aren't medical reasons preventing him from returning and his failure to return is pretty indefensible.

[the ultimates]

I've also thrown out the full max thing as a criticism in the past, but its real real easy for you and I to say that from the sidelines. If he's supposed to sacrifice that, why can't ownership sacrifice and say, buy a late first round pick...ever? Why is it all on Derrick Rose?

kyrv, everyday when I check this board, you are posting in the most recent pages of this thread and it would be unfair to say you are anti-Rose, but my perception is that you've lowered your opinion of him through this ACL saga. I'm genuinely curious to know why you are so engaged in this situation and seemingly critical of Rose while you are standing up for an ownership group in the other thread that clearly made cost cutting moves that made the team worse this year.

I'll just pretend ownership has only been smart / efficient in the past. So with that the scoreboard is currently tied at one w/both Rose and ownership hurting the team for this season only. So why is your daily commentary aimed at Rose only? Why is it that the star player must put himself on the line, but not those responsible for the whole thing? Why do you seem to hold Rose to a higher std than Jerry and the board?

Are this year's Bulls when healthy including Rose a title contender and no worse than the second best team in the East? If the answer is yes then I don't see how they made the team worse. The make up of the bench is different but the end results again if healthy are still the same.

[Wingy]

Are there any recent quotes from the Drs? Seems like everyone regardless of POV is arguing quotes from a year ago, from which we don't even have the full context since we didn't see the questions that provoked those responses.

[Wingy]

We are a worse team than last year if both squads are healthy, I think that's pretty widely accepted here.

Saying we're still #2 in the standings still doesn't mean we're as good as we were

[kyrv]

I've also thrown out the full max thing as a criticism in the past, but its real real easy for you and I to say that from the sidelines. If he's supposed to sacrifice that, why can't ownership sacrifice and say, buy a late first round pick...ever? Why is it all on Derrick Rose?

kyrv, everyday when I check this board, you are posting in the most recent pages of this thread and it would be unfair to say you are anti-Rose, but my perception is that you've lowered your opinion of him through this ACL saga. I'm genuinely curious to know why you are so engaged in this situation and seemingly critical of Rose while you are standing up for an ownership group in the other thread that clearly made cost cutting moves that made the team worse this year.

I'll just pretend ownership has only been smart / efficient in the past. So with that the scoreboard is currently tied at one w/both Rose and ownership hurting the team for this season only. So why is your daily commentary aimed at Rose only? Why is it that the star player must put himself on the line, but not those responsible for the whole thing? Why do you seem to hold Rose to a higher std than Jerry and the board?

Derrick's job is to play basketball.

Nothing to do with ownership at all.

Evidence suggests that Rose could be playing in real games if he so chose. Not sure that needs any more explanation.

The only Bulls part in this is that they said he couldn't play until he was cleared with no additional risk of re-injury, that time has passed. There is no evidence they are preventing Rose from playing. So they have no involvement that I can see. Oh, they are supporting him in public, as expected, but that has nothing to do with the injury/rehab/return process. Support or lack of support, or the roster, don't have medical effects.

If you agree Rose could be playing, then we agree. I'm not going to argue if someone should be fine with it or not, once they admit he could be playing, we agree.

I have no double standards, at least with regard to this. Maybe on other thing(s).

[Wingy]

I don't want to make it personal, but are you a politician? Your response sure seems to completely dodge, dismiss and purposefully avoid the point of the question.

Again, as a fan - why do you insist Rose do his part daily, while not seeming to care that ownership is doing the exact same thing as Rose (ie - not doing everything they can to bring us wins/title shots)

[Googjob]

Again, as a fan - why do you insist Rose do his part daily, while not seeming to care that ownership is doing the exact same thing as Rose (ie - not doing everything they can to bring us wins/title shots)

Ownership gets criticized quite regularly for being cheap and not putting the best team available on the court.

[kingkirk]

I don't want to make it personal, but are you a politician? Your response sure seems to completely dodge, dismiss and purposefully avoid the point of the question.

Again, as a fan - why do you insist Rose do his part daily, while not seeming to care that ownership is doing the exact same thing as Rose (ie - not doing everything they can to bring us wins/title shots)

This is silly.

We shouldn't expect Rose to man up every day and do what he is expected and paid millions for?

Not doing everything they can? This is debatable, but prior to the ACL, we had a team that had the best record 2 seasons in a row. Rose has had a playoff team every year of his career. He hasn't played on a losing team ever.

Heaven forbid if he actually got drafted by a real cellar dweller like the Bobcats.

As a fan, i insist Rose plays when he is physically ready to go because that's what he is paid for.

We don't support his team, he plays for my team, kyrv's team, Duck's team, your team etc.

[Wingy]

Why is it silly? I'm asking an intelligent poster, who Im sure I've agreed with plenty more thsn Ive disagreed with over the years, an honest question.

Where did I say his or anyone's opinion is invalid?

I asked why so passionate on one, but hardly anything for the other

[kyrv]

I don't want to make it personal, but are you a politician? Your response sure seems to completely dodge, dismiss and purposefully avoid the point of the question.

Again, as a fan - why do you insist Rose do his part daily, while not seeming to care that ownership is doing the exact same thing as Rose (ie - not doing everything they can to bring us wins/title shots)

Why do I 'insist' that a healthy athlete play?

Is that a serious question?

Do you have a special (double) standard for Rose, or do you view sports in such a foreign light to me that there is sadly no point in even discussing it?

Why do I 'insist' a healthy athlete play?

Is that really a question?

Are you upset the rest of the Bulls are playing?

I seriously can't even comprehend this. I'm gobmacked.

[kyrv]

Why is it silly? I'm asking an intelligent poster, who Im sure I've agreed with plenty more thsn Ive disagreed with over the years, an honest question.

Where did I say his or anyone's opinion is invalid?

I asked why so passionate on one, but hardly anything for the other

It's silly. Rose is paid to play.

Do you have evidence that JR is refusing to perform his duties? If so, he'll probably get replaced as CEO.

And I'm assuming you aren't confusing "refusing to honor his contract" with "I just don't like how they do it, having the best record in the league two years in a row is indicative of a very bad franchise"?

[kingkirk]

Why is it silly? I'm asking an intelligent poster, who Im sure I've agreed with plenty more thsn Ive disagreed with over the years, an honest question.

Where did I say his or anyone's opinion is invalid?

I asked why so passionate on one, but hardly anything for the other

I didn't say it was an invalid question. I said it was a silly one.

You asked a Bulls fan why he insists that his star player take part in all his daily requirements as an NBA player. Really?

What his front office does or doesn't do should be completely external to what he does every day on and off the court.

He is contractually obliged too play. This is not debatable.

He was drafted to this league to play basketball, not to make a stance and be a pseudo GM. C'mon now.

[Wingy]

Yes I get that, but I was just wondering why you don't seem to care nearly as much about the other side of the equation that's supposed to help our team win. I'm not saying you're wrong to have your opinion on Rose. If you don't want to answer, that's your right. I just don't see how this somehow got twisted into me devaluing your opinion on Rose

[kyrv]

Why is it silly? I'm asking an intelligent poster, who Im sure I've agreed with plenty more thsn Ive disagreed with over the years, an honest question.

Where did I say his or anyone's opinion is invalid?

I asked why so passionate on one, but hardly anything for the other

I didn't say it was an invalid question. I said it was a silly one.

You asked a Bulls fan why he insists that his star player take part in all his daily requirements as an NBA player. Really?

What his front office does or doesn't do should be completely external to what he does every day on and off the court.

He is contractually obliged too play. This is not debatable.

He was drafted to this league to play basketball, not to make a stance and be a pseudo GM. C'mon now.

I've never heard in any injury report, in any sport, at any time, where the ownership or FO was somehow involved with making a player healthy or not.

Makes zero sense to me.

Noah can play. Rose can't.

Same ownership.

That's confusing.