Derrick Rose Thread #13 - Acceptance

[DaMayor73]

Hate to tell people this but just because you have a "concern" doesn't mean it's reasonable. Sometimes you just have to trust the people who make a living at repairing people.

And sometimes, you have to trust the person who owns that body part and brain that was repaired on. It works both ways.

[panthermark]

Wong. I have no timeline. Would I like for him to be healthy and play? Sure. But I have no arbitrary date set up for him to return. When he is healthy, he will play. It really is that simple for me.

No, that isn't the question.

Will you be OK if we get to the start of next season, and Rose is still sitting becuase he isn't mentally ready?

Not "will you accept it"...that is a different question. We will all have to "accept it"....the question is..will you be fine with it...or will you say..WTF..it has been 18 months since you tore your ACL...and you still are not ready?

If your answer is..."hey...lay off of him...he isn't ready....when he plays he plays"...that you are either lying, are you are the outlier in terms of resonableness, thus making your argument a bit moot.

So either I am lying or I don't meet your terms of resonableness? Blakc or white, huh? No shades of gray? Sort of like you vehemence about Rose and his injury, no? All black or white. No gray area.

I don't think you would meet anyones terms of reasonableness. The shades of gray range between...I don't know...10 months post surgery and the start of the next season.

If Rose is still sitting past 18 months, that isn't reasonable. I don't think you will find many (if any) that agree with you.

Your own defintiion of reasonalble does not even make sense because it is an opened ended timeframe. You can't have a reasonable basis without a range of timeframes to draw from as to what is reasonable.

[DaMayor73]

I don't think you would meet anyones terms of reasonableness. The shades of gray range between...I don't know...10 months post surgery and the start of the next season.

If Rose is still sitting past 18 months, that isn't reasonable. I don't think you will find many (if any) that agree with you.

Your own defintiion of reasonalble does not even make sense because it is an opened ended timeframe. You can't have a reasonable basis without a range of timeframes to draw from as to what is reasonable.

He will play when he plays. That is my mindset. If that is not a reasonable position to take in your eyes, then so be it. I live in the gray area....nothing is ever black and white.

[panthermark]

I don't think you would meet anyones terms of reasonableness. The shades of gray range between...I don't know...10 months post surgery and the start of the next season.

If Rose is still sitting past 18 months, that isn't reasonable. I don't think you will find many (if any) that agree with you.

Your own defintiion of reasonalble does not even make sense because it is an opened ended timeframe. You can't have a reasonable basis without a range of timeframes to draw from as to what is reasonable.

He will play when he plays. That is my mindset. If that is not a reasonable position to take in your eyes, then so be it. I live in the gray area....nothing is ever black and white.

We all know he will play when he plays. That isn't a question or a mindset, that is a statement.

The question is something you keep ignoring because your answer is either a lie (you are just arguing a theoretical postiion), or your defintion if resonable is the outlier...thus making your argument moot.

[HINrichPolice]

Why would we care about the next 10. He is only under contract for 4 more years after this year. Beyond that, I guarantee you that he is not an elite player worth building a team around at age 34.

By not playing this year, Rose:
- Gives up 20% of the playoff runs under his current deal, which might be his last one in Chicago.
- Makes it difficult for Chicago to plan for next year
- Delays getting over the mental hurdle until next year
- Loses a year of playoff experience, or should I say, another year
There are a whole lot of negatives for Rose not playing this year. Again, I have no idea what is going on with Rose. If he really is in bad shape and his leg could fall off at any minute, I can see why waiting would be good for him. Of course, if that's true he shouldn't be practicing and we should really worry about him ever recovering.

I can't overstate this, the way things have turned out, this injury is going to throw 3 years of Derrick's career in the toilet. Last year, this year and next year.

All your and Duck, and AshleyLarry, well a lot of people, have been really spot on.

'Defending' Rose by stating he's either incredibly weak willed or scared, or arguing he can't make up his own mind, none of those are particularly good for Rose, or the Bulls.

Duck said a long time ago, if Rose misses the entire season, the 'why' matters less than the 'did'.

None of the explanations or 'defenses' negate what you have outlined. Being 'fine' with Rose not playing, does not negate what you have written. Must read read material.

This situation is just plain not good.

I think saying that this situation throws '13-14 down the toilet is being a bit over dramatic.

[DaMayor73]

We all know he will play when he plays. That isn't a question or a mindset, that is a statement.

The question is something you keep ignoring because your answer is either a lie (you are just arguing a theoretical postiion), or your defintion if resonable is the outlier...thus making your argument moot.

I didn't answer the question? I think I have. You just don't like the answer. And that is ok as well.

[Rerisen]

May 12, 2012:

Q: Is it reasonable to expect him to play next year, or is it going to be more maybe wiser to let him sit out the whole year?

Reggie Rose: No, he's not sitting out the entire year.

-- OFFSEASON HAPPENS --

December 2013

Bucher reports members in the Rose camp think he should sit the whole year primarily because the team doesn't have a championship roster. (Reggie confirms that they were his thoughts, or his as well, in the interview).

So sadly we can't even say the likely the reason is mainly because the Rose camp (wrongly) just thinks an extra year will make him better. As Reggie clearly responded against that reasoning initially in the question above.

I wish we were not arrived at the place where we are at, with our superstar being misled against his own team, organization and teammates, but all signs point to just that. Hence the appeals to god, and utter incoherency in this whole thing at several points along the way.

[panthermark]

We all know he will play when he plays. That isn't a question or a mindset, that is a statement.

The question is something you keep ignoring because your answer is either a lie (you are just arguing a theoretical postiion), or your defintion if resonable is the outlier...thus making your argument moot.

I didn't answer the question? I think I have. You just don't like the answer. And that is ok as well.

OK, you answered it.

Your theoritical defintion of "reasonable" (does not matter when or even if...it is all up to him) simply isnt' reasonable.

This conversation is now moot.

[DaMayor73]

We all know he will play when he plays. That isn't a question or a mindset, that is a statement.

The question is something you keep ignoring because your answer is either a lie (you are just arguing a theoretical postiion), or your defintion if resonable is the outlier...thus making your argument moot.

I didn't answer the question? I think I have. You just don't like the answer. And that is ok as well.

OK, you answered it.

Your theoritical defintion of "reasonable" (does not matter when or even if...it is all up to him) simply isnt' reasonable.

This conversation is now moot.

Haha. Isn't resonable according to whom? You? And because you deem the conversation moot means it is?

[jnrjr79]

Why do you refuse to be truthful?

Rose had physical discomfort over the course of his rehab. He has said he is now healthy.

He has not described any "mental discomfort."

I believe you might want to consult the dictionary again in your use of the term "conspiracy theory." His own manager came out and said this. It's not like it's been invented by fans.

No, his brother said a bunch of nonsense and the fans took that and ran with it. It's kind of like how all conpriracy theories start.

And Rose has absolutely said he is mentally not ready yet.

Or, you could be honest and state "Derrick Rose's manager stated it might not be in his best interests to come back this year because this roster cannot win a championship."

It's not a conspiracy theory. You just want to believe that.

[BuffaloBull]

Why would we care about the next 10. He is only under contract for 4 more years after this year. Beyond that, I guarantee you that he is not an elite player worth building a team around at age 34.

By not playing this year, Rose:
- Gives up 20% of the playoff runs under his current deal, which might be his last one in Chicago.
- Makes it difficult for Chicago to plan for next year
- Delays getting over the mental hurdle until next year
- Loses a year of playoff experience, or should I say, another year
There are a whole lot of negatives for Rose not playing this year. Again, I have no idea what is going on with Rose. If he really is in bad shape and his leg could fall off at any minute, I can see why waiting would be good for him. Of course, if that's true he shouldn't be practicing and we should really worry about him ever recovering.

I can't overstate this, the way things have turned out, this injury is going to throw 3 years of Derrick's career in the toilet. Last year, this year and next year.

All your and Duck, and AshleyLarry, well a lot of people, have been really spot on.

'Defending' Rose by stating he's either incredibly weak willed or scared, or arguing he can't make up his own mind, none of those are particularly good for Rose, or the Bulls.

Duck said a long time ago, if Rose misses the entire season, the 'why' matters less than the 'did'.

None of the explanations or 'defenses' negate what you have outlined. Being 'fine' with Rose not playing, does not negate what you have written. Must read read material.

This situation is just plain not good.

I think saying that this situation throws '13-14 down the toilet is being a bit over dramatic.

Yeah. Honestly, I think this situation is as simple as Derrick is waiting to feel like he has his special gear back.

He knows what made him an MVP was his athletic gifts. Most dynamic game in the league. And an extra gear to just explode whenever he needed to, and still finish soft of the glass with spin or the floater. To have that
kind of skill, you need to really understand your body in space.

There's an argument to be made that he won't get that all the way back until he plays, but I give Derrick the benefit of the doubt that he knows that. He's only been playing basketball his whole life: my knowledge of what it takes, mentally and physically, to get through an NBA game and an NBA season is nothing compared to what he's lived. He also knows better than anybody if he's gotten that gear back enough to trust it. Because his game is so instinctual and powerful, if he reaches for it out of habit and doesn't find it, he could really hurt himself because he is so strong.

So his choice, I think is playing as somebody else, with a governor on his game, or waiting until he feels comfortable enough with his body to play as he is accustomed to, and keep working, in rehab and practice, until he gets there. His game is so kinetic, though, that the rules are different for him, versus Jamal, or Rubio. And I agree with Wilbon's take on things. The strong guys are the ones you need to worry about: Oden, Stoudamire developed knee issues and continued to have them because they were so strong in the lower body.

It could go both ways. And it's 100% his call. Which is cool by me.

[jnrjr79]

And Rose has absolutely said he is mentally not ready yet.

Yes we know that, he said it almost 2 months ago.

So why would that statement still not be true today?

Why would it not be true ten years from now?


The passage of time matters.

[Rerisen]

Coldfish has asked numerous times how does sitting out the year make the Bulls better down the line. At core logic level I agree with him, it doesn't.

But there is an answer:

Second, don't mask just how flawed this roster is by coming back and finishing up strong.

They want the team to fail and fail badly:

This season will be worthwhile if, and only if, it convinces management not to exploit Rose's talent

Is this just Buches theorizing on his own at that point, after citing Team Rose at the beginning of the same piece? We don't know, but it wouldn't shock me in the slightest if this is thinking in tune with, or coming from the same place, an overprotective brother. Since you know, he pretty much said the exact same words nationally a couple months later.

[jnrjr79]

Sam Smith indicated on a radio interview this week (I believe on the Score, if I recall) that the Bulls want to just announce a shut-down, but Team Rose prefers they leave it open.

They have no good options at this point, its true, but his 'Team' saves themselves pressure and blame, and offloads it onto Derrick individually, by leaving it open.

If he is declared out, then people stop the minute to minute pressure on Derrick to play each and every game, and start looking much harder at Reggie, BJ and people in his circle who will have been presumed (likely correctly) to have made that call.

This is a case for the saying 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'. These people may have good intentions for Derrick, what they think is best for his health, what they think is best for his career (making a decision they hope will result in management getting him a better team down the line), but none of it holds up very well when you think it all the way through. They are doing him far more harm than good at this point.

Wait, are you suggesting Derrick's advisors, and not Derrick, might be calling the shots on how all this is handled?



And all this time I thought it was a conspiracy theory.

(I agree with your point. This preference hurts Derrick and helps shield his inner circle.)

[AirP.]

Sure, and why might that statement not be true for the 2015-2016 season?

Maybe it will be. Who knows? I don't profess to know the future. But I am saying a statement from 2 months ago is still relevant today. You are saying that statement may still be relevent 2 years from now. Now how would we know that?

And why is it still relevant? Maybe because he's not doing the next step of his rehabilitation... playing games?

It's very reasonable that if you're not willing to trust your repaired part, you'll never be comfortable with your repaired part. Then again, I'm only going off what doctors say and my personal experience.

[Rerisen]

Wait, are you suggesting Derrick's advisors, and not Derrick, might be calling the shots on how all this is handled?

Looks that way, but it doesn't absolve Derrick from standing up at some point and being his own man.

Derrick feels strongly for his teammates I'm sure, and maybe even for his organization. I don't think Reggie does. I think Reggie, as family, likely feels the Bulls org's cheapness, their lack of getting more talent, caused Derrick to come up looking small and embarrassed vs LeBron James mano a mano superstar in the ECF, and that the team's inability to get him more help possibly even caused him to suffer an ACL tear, due to overworking him in 2012 on top of multiple mounting injuries, and his coach requiring him to be out there with under 2 minutes to go in a game with a 14 point lead in the playoffs.

[AAU Teammate]

I wish we were not arrived at the place where we are at, with our superstar being misled against his own team, organization and teammates, but all signs point to just that. Hence the appeals to god, and utter incoherency in this whole thing at several points along the way.

All along I have said it's troubling that a guy would/could alter his rehab, go against doctors--if that's what happened.

But this whole thing about we've "arrived at the place we're at" says that we know what has happened. We really don't. If there's a conspiracy thing, you're right. If Derrick is scared to play on the repaired knee and is pausing the rehab...then you're not.


And if it's (A) Derrick's fear making the decision, but his brother's ass-headedness working in tandem with it...I'm unhappy. If we find out (B) it's Derrick's fear making the decision, and his brother is just puffing himself up to Bucher.......... then I have sympathy for Derrick's plight just in terms of human fears. Getting onto and off of the operating table flat out sucks. Just on a human level, we all relate.



I am not going to pretend I know the answer is (A) until we learn more. And we may never learn more. Stated better: I am not going to get enraged over (A) until I have evidence that it's not (B).

[Rerisen]

And if it's (A) Derrick's fear making the decision, but his brother's ass-headedness working in tandem with it...I'm unhappy.

I think Derrick has uncertainty to play, fears, I think every athlete would. Players like Jamal Crawford and others have told us there is. But I don't think that fear would be allowed to be making the final call, the easy way out (next year) if that was the only thing in play. When people around you are telling you that you don't have to, to wait, it makes indulging that fear all the easier.

And I don't know why you keep saying its a 'conspiracy theory'. I guess only if you believe Rose actually taking this advice is a conspiracy. I'd call it just listening to your management and inner circle. But words reported nationally and direct via interview telling you this was the thought process is not a conspiracy. Its what Reggie believes, he told Scott Powers directly. Nothing hidden about it.

[DaMayor73]

Why would it not be true ten years from now?


The passage of time matters.

It could be true 10 years from now. Who knows the future? But to discount a statement he made 2 months ago to not be true today is a little presumptious, no?

[AAU Teammate]

Nothing hidden about it.

He also told Scott Powers that these are his thoughts and not Derrick's.

So that is claiming there is no link. You're claiming there's a link.