Derrick Rose Thread #13 - Acceptance

[Rerisen]

Nothing hidden about it.

He also told Scott Powers that these are his thoughts and not Derrick's.

So that is claiming there is no link. You're claiming there's a link.

Saying they are his thoughts is not the same thing as saying Derrick doesn't share them. It's just a cover blanket that makes perfect sense to put out there to protect Derrick. I don't know if Derrick shares them or not, but his actions are giving us a pretty big reason to think he does so far.

And even just as his thoughts, they carry immense weight when he happens to be Rose's manager, and most important person advising him his whole life, that has negotiated him to every success he's had.

Also he didn't say the roster *should* be a big factor in Derrick's return, he said it *IS* a big factor. That is an authoritative statement.

These aren't just random disassociated family members the media dialed up to hear opine, this is his management team. It would be like ignoring something Maverick Carter said about LeBron.

[BULLHITTER]

Yeah. Honestly, I think this situation is as simple as Derrick is waiting to feel like he has his special gear back.

He knows what made him an MVP was his athletic gifts. Most dynamic game in the league. And an extra gear to just explode whenever he needed to, and still finish soft of the glass with spin or the floater. To have that
kind of skill, you need to really understand your body in space.

There's an argument to be made that he won't get that all the way back until he plays, but I give Derrick the benefit of the doubt that he knows that. He's only been playing basketball his whole life: my knowledge of what it takes, mentally and physically, to get through an NBA game and an NBA season is nothing compared to what he's lived. He also knows better than anybody if he's gotten that gear back enough to trust it. Because his game is so instinctual and powerful, if he reaches for it out of habit and doesn't find it, he could really hurt himself because he is so strong.

So his choice, I think is playing as somebody else, with a governor on his game, or waiting until he feels comfortable enough with his body to play as he is accustomed to, and keep working, in rehab and practice, until he gets there. His game is so kinetic, though, that the rules are different for him, versus Jamal, or Rubio. And I agree with Wilbon's take on things. The strong guys are the ones you need to worry about: Oden, Stoudamire developed knee issues and continued to have them because they were so strong in the lower body.

It could go both ways. And it's 100% his call. Which is cool by me.

this is one of the most plausible scenarios, which as a former athlete who's endured ACL surgery, i endorse 100%. all the rest seems to be rehashing year old rubbish. since i'd hazard to guess less than 20% of the posters have very much experience directly, i'm not surprised the afore-quoted has gone un-recognized in favor of more nefarious, albeit dubious positions.

lastly, IF he maintains the position he's not healthy come NEXT season, i think it bodes to a larger problem the bulls have moreso than rose. they need to decide how to continue to build the team, whether they publicly stand behind rose or not.

[kyrv]

Why would we care about the next 10. He is only under contract for 4 more years after this year. Beyond that, I guarantee you that he is not an elite player worth building a team around at age 34.

By not playing this year, Rose:
- Gives up 20% of the playoff runs under his current deal, which might be his last one in Chicago.
- Makes it difficult for Chicago to plan for next year
- Delays getting over the mental hurdle until next year
- Loses a year of playoff experience, or should I say, another year
There are a whole lot of negatives for Rose not playing this year. Again, I have no idea what is going on with Rose. If he really is in bad shape and his leg could fall off at any minute, I can see why waiting would be good for him. Of course, if that's true he shouldn't be practicing and we should really worry about him ever recovering.

I can't overstate this, the way things have turned out, this injury is going to throw 3 years of Derrick's career in the toilet. Last year, this year and next year.

All your and Duck, and AshleyLarry, well a lot of people, have been really spot on.

'Defending' Rose by stating he's either incredibly weak willed or scared, or arguing he can't make up his own mind, none of those are particularly good for Rose, or the Bulls.

Duck said a long time ago, if Rose misses the entire season, the 'why' matters less than the 'did'.

None of the explanations or 'defenses' negate what you have outlined. Being 'fine' with Rose not playing, does not negate what you have written. Must read read material.

This situation is just plain not good.

I think saying that this situation throws '13-14 down the toilet is being a bit over dramatic.

It is. With the repeater tax being so punitive, they are probably better off not intending to pay the luxury tax. If Rose looks great by the trading deadline, they can make moves, otherwise analyze the situation.

Rose's refusal to play this season, as Fish outlined, has a lot more impact on next season than I was appreciating (although I was and still mostly am in 'this season' mode).

After not playing for 1 1/2 years just seems really wishful thinking that Rose will be back in top five form. He should be good at some point,yes, and the Bulls should be good, but, and especially since they may pay the tax this year, they are probably best served making sure they are under the tax for next season, as opposed to stocking up balls to the wall.

[AirP.]

But this whole thing about we've "arrived at the place we're at" says that we know what has happened. We really don't. If there's a conspiracy thing, you're right. If Derrick is scared to play on the repaired knee and is pausing the rehab...then you're not.

"I think I can do everything," Rose said a month ago. "It's just me having the confidence to do it. Just me feeling normal. Just me taking my time and being prepared and knowing when I come back I want to be 100 percent."

Normal? One hundred percent? The playoffs are here. No one's body feels normal after a season's pounding. You know who doesn't feel 100 percent? Tyson Chandler, Kevin Garnett, Manu Ginobili and Steve Nash, to name a few. They're all injured to one degree or another, but they're playing. The Knicks' Iman Shumpert, who suffered the same injury on the same day as Rose, has been back since February. On Rose's own team, center Joakim Noah has been pushing through the stabbing pain of plantar fasciitis in his foot during the Nets series to give the Bulls whatever he can in limited minutes. The case can be made that Rose is healthier than Noah right now. How can he sit and watch while Noah grits his teeth and plays?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/ne ... klyn-nets/

Tom Thibodeau moved the closest to declaring Derrick Rose out for the season Saturday morning when he said the Bulls’ star is “most likely out” moving forward in the postseason.
“But you never know,” Thibodeau said. “The playoffs are stretched out too, so you have to factor that in. Who knows another week from now where he is? You always want to leave that possibility open.

http://nba.si.com/2013/04/20/derrick-ro ... ulls-nets/

My theory why Rose may or may not be back... because it's in the 2nd round where he would be entering his 13 month of rehab from the surgery... you know the 8-12 month rehab schedule. If it's true he can only go up to 12 months of rehab, he would be back in the lineup in the middle of the 2nd round, but the Bulls have to get to the 2nd round to have that happen. Who knows, maybe if Rose goes past 12 months he can be docked pay?

[kyrv]

May 12, 2012:

Q: Is it reasonable to expect him to play next year, or is it going to be more maybe wiser to let him sit out the whole year?

Reggie Rose: No, he's not sitting out the entire year.

-- OFFSEASON HAPPENS --

December 2013

Bucher reports members in the Rose camp think he should sit the whole year primarily because the team doesn't have a championship roster. (Reggie confirms that they were his thoughts, or his as well, in the interview).

So sadly we can't even say the likely the reason is mainly because the Rose camp (wrongly) just thinks an extra year will make him better. As Reggie clearly responded against that reasoning initially in the question above.

I wish we were not arrived at the place where we are at, with our superstar being misled against his own team, organization and teammates, but all signs point to just that. Hence the appeals to god, and utter incoherency in this whole thing at several points along the way.

Ya, it's not really a conspiracy theory when the guy is telling you straight out.

Earlier someone linked an article from a few years ago where Reggie was really bragging about how much control he had over Derrick. Sham was the first responder and he noted, how come every fluff article tells us that Derrick is not capable of making a decision on his own.

[otwok]

Rose won't be docked pay. That is silly. Rose probably won't play in the playoffs either. It wouldn't make sense that you take an ultra conservative approach only to return in a middle of a playoff series against one of the best teams in over a decade. He'll scrimmage this offseason, he'll practice with Team USA and come back in the second to last game of the preseason.

[panthermark]

Haha. Isn't resonable according to whom? You? And because you deem the conversation moot means it is?

If you think your viewpoint is "reaonsble"...then that is the reason why this conversation is moot. You are talking about what reasonable people would expect, but your defintiion is pretty warped. Only a reasonable person would understand that.

I going to go out on a limb and say no one else would find it resonable if Rose didn't play on openeing day because he still wasn't "quite there mentally"....same for Christmas.....and after the All-Star Break....and next year's play-off's as well (if we made it there).......and even the start of the 2014-15 season.....but that is your position.

There are plenty of reasonable people on this board who are OK with Rose sitting this year, but would expect him back at the start of next year....and would be quite pissed off if we was still sitting out because he wasn't mentally ready.

[AirP.]

Yeah. Honestly, I think this situation is as simple as Derrick is waiting to feel like he has his special gear back.

He knows what made him an MVP was his athletic gifts. Most dynamic game in the league. And an extra gear to just explode whenever he needed to, and still finish soft of the glass with spin or the floater. To have that
kind of skill, you need to really understand your body in space.

What if the current(possibly not MVP mode) Rose is enough of a talent at 90% to give the Bulls a legitimate chance at a championship THIS YEAR? The future isn't guaranteed, what if Noah's knee gives out on him next season, it's another wasted season. With all the reports we're hearing, Rose in practice is a better option at PG then Hinrich is. Rose even at 90% makes the Bulls a better team then Brooklyn as long as Noah can play and gives them a fighting chance to beat anyone.

You have to play for the present, injuries do happen, what if one of Lebron, Wade or Bosh were to go down? The door to the finals would be wide open.

[Rerisen]

The good thing about what people are calling 'the worst' line of thought, that I think is most likely to this point, is how easily the worst line of thought becomes the best line of thought, simply by Rose deciding he's playing.

Because that means Rose is not somehow permanently physically declined by way of explaining his longest ACL recovery in recent memory. It means he is not somehow mentally blocked, or afraid to get on the court, or too weak willed.

It just means he is listening to bad advice. All other scenarios are actually likely far worse for the future of the Bulls. Unless that is, this thinking would continue in lockstep into the future, leading to an eventual standoff over roster build. But even there, we have years for them to get on the same page.

The thought that scares me more is that Rose truly isn't healthy, or still not physically recovered close to his old self. As that is the thing that would actually hamper our title hopes more than anything, getting a Rose that is never the same as he was again.

[AirP.]

Rose won't be docked pay. That is silly. Rose probably won't play in the playoffs either. It wouldn't make sense that you take an ultra conservative approach only to return in a middle of a playoff series against one of the best teams in over a decade. He'll scrimmage this offseason, he'll practice with Team USA and come back in the second to last game of the preseason.

You really think Chicago will OK Rose to play with Team USA after sitting the whole season even with the doctors' OKing him to play months ago?

What's silly is the Bulls are paying Rose about 1.6 million a month while he doesn't feel comfortable with his knee that was OK'd by doctors to play on months ago.

If this were Lebron EVERYONE but fanboys would be ripping into him...

[AirP.]

Why would it not be true ten years from now?


The passage of time matters.

It could be true 10 years from now. Who knows the future? But to discount a statement he made 2 months ago to not be true today is a little presumptious, no?

No.

[kyrv]

The good thing about what people are calling 'the worst' line of thought, that I think is most likely to this point, is how easily the worst line of thought becomes the best line of thought, simply by Rose deciding he's playing.

Because that means Rose is not somehow permanently physically declined by way of explaining his longest ACL recovery in recent memory. It means he is not somehow mentally blocked, or afraid to get on the court, or too weak willed.

It just means he is listening to bad advice. All other scenarios are actually likely far worse for the future of the Bulls. Unless that is, this thinking would continue in lockstep into the future, leading to an eventual standoff over roster build.

I agree, I outlined that, the best scenario for his on court play is that he both healthy and not mentally weak, of course that's the worst off the court scenario. But off court issues can possibly be resolved by conversation and negotiation, injuries, not so much.


BB - How do you explain the December article that predicted the current (unlikely) situation? It's a monkey wrench in your working theory, and my previous working theory, for sure.

I've read 90% of these threads or trying and either I just happen to miss it or nobody will answer that question.

[otwok]

Rose won't be docked pay. That is silly. Rose probably won't play in the playoffs either. It wouldn't make sense that you take an ultra conservative approach only to return in a middle of a playoff series against one of the best teams in over a decade. He'll scrimmage this offseason, he'll practice with Team USA and come back in the second to last game of the preseason.

You really think Chicago will OK Rose to play with Team USA after sitting the whole season even with the doctors' OKing him to play months ago?

Chicago may not but the Bulls Organization will and that is really all that matters.

In fact if he didn't practice with Team USA then it would possibly worry me because that could be the start of something disasterous.

[panthermark]

Yeah. Honestly, I think this situation is as simple as Derrick is waiting to feel like he has his special gear back.

He knows what made him an MVP was his athletic gifts. Most dynamic game in the league. And an extra gear to just explode whenever he needed to, and still finish soft of the glass with spin or the floater. To have that
kind of skill, you need to really understand your body in space.

There's an argument to be made that he won't get that all the way back until he plays, but I give Derrick the benefit of the doubt that he knows that. He's only been playing basketball his whole life: my knowledge of what it takes, mentally and physically, to get through an NBA game and an NBA season is nothing compared to what he's lived. He also knows better than anybody if he's gotten that gear back enough to trust it. Because his game is so instinctual and powerful, if he reaches for it out of habit and doesn't find it, he could really hurt himself because he is so strong.

So his choice, I think is playing as somebody else, with a governor on his game, or waiting until he feels comfortable enough with his body to play as he is accustomed to, and keep working, in rehab and practice, until he gets there. His game is so kinetic, though, that the rules are different for him, versus Jamal, or Rubio. And I agree with Wilbon's take on things. The strong guys are the ones you need to worry about: Oden, Stoudamire developed knee issues and continued to have them because they were so strong in the lower body.

It could go both ways. And it's 100% his call. Which is cool by me.

this is one of the most plausible scenarios, which as a former athlete who's endured ACL surgery, i endorse 100%. all the rest seems to be rehashing year old rubbish. since i'd hazard to guess less than 20% of the posters have very much experience directly, i'm not surprised the afore-quoted has gone un-recognized in favor of more nefarious, albeit dubious positions.

lastly, IF he maintains the position he's not healthy come NEXT season, i think it bodes to a larger problem the bulls have moreso than rose. they need to decide how to continue to build the team, whether they publicly stand behind rose or not.

I have not problem with that particular theory. While I wished he would have come back at 10 months and 1 week to limited minuets and not back to backs in order to start in game rehab....but that quote is "reasonable". I would prefer Rose at 90% helping his team (and extending the season..thus giving more time and exponetioal growth to get back to 100%)....but I do understand that take. However...it is a bit backwards. I've never had ACL surgery, but from what I understand, no one takes the court at 100%.

[Rerisen]

BB - How do you explain the December article that predicted the current (unlikely) situation? It's a monkey wrench in your working theory, and my previous working theory, for sure.

I've read 90% of these threads or trying and either I just happen to miss it or nobody will answer that question.

Since you've been left to dry so long on this one. Yeah hard to answer, but there is one, just seems to be unlikely coincidence.

Rose camp wants him to sit the year, doesn't think its worth it to come back this season. Derrick thinks it is worth it, is not listening to them in the slightest, but just has his own internal standard (also misguided) that he must, or can, be 110% immediately his first game back.

[aaqubed]

The Bucher post asked why Rose should "shorten" his recovery time to drag this team to the playoffs. That's not predicting anything, that's asking a legitimate question. The answer is that of course no one wants Rose to shorten his recovery time.

The only difference is between those who think he's at the stage where he can only continue to recover by playing in actual games, and those who think that there is plenty he can continue to do to rehab without playing yet.

I'm of the opinion that I don't really know which one is better for him, and I hope he listens to his doctors, but I'll continue to give him the benefit of the doubt because this was a pretty serious injury and I have no idea how he actually feels, physically, right now.

[kyrv]

The Bucher post asked why Rose should "shorten" his recovery time to drag this team to the playoffs. That's not predicting anything, that's asking a legitimate question. The answer is that of course no one wants Rose to shorten his recovery time.

The only difference is between those who think he's at the stage where he can only continue to recover by playing in actual games, and those who think that there is plenty he can continue to do to rehab without playing yet.

I'm of the opinion that I don't really know which one is better for him, and I hope he listens to his doctors, but I'll continue to give him the benefit of the doubt because this was a pretty serious injury and I have no idea how he actually feels, physically, right now.

Bucher also warned fans that just because you see Rose practicing and playing well and dunking, don't think that means he's going to play.

Seemed like a really odd quote at the time.

[Rerisen]

The Bucher post asked why Rose should "shorten" his recovery time to drag this team to the playoffs. That's not predicting anything, that's asking a legitimate question. The answer is that of course no one wants Rose to shorten his recovery time.

Except it was a false premise. The overused 'rushing him back' despite him even at that point - March - having one of the longer recoveries in modern memory.

Apparently Rubio shortened his recovery just to drag his team to missing the playoffs. What a dolt!

As others have pointed out, the Bulls gave Rose extra time, a very cautious recovery timetable to begin with, buffer built in, normal seeming for a player of his worth, but it made it all the easier for them to stretch out the whole year, if that was their plan.

[bullsnewdynasty]

I still haven't gotten an answer from people defending Rose's course of action why he can't play 10 to 15 minutes in a real game when he's been practicing with the team for months. The only difference between a game and a practice is that there are refs and the other team is wearing different jerseys. With this story, it seems like rationality is completely thrown out the window.

[BuffaloBull]

The good thing about what people are calling 'the worst' line of thought, that I think is most likely to this point, is how easily the worst line of thought becomes the best line of thought, simply by Rose deciding he's playing.

Because that means Rose is not somehow permanently physically declined by way of explaining his longest ACL recovery in recent memory. It means he is not somehow mentally blocked, or afraid to get on the court, or too weak willed.

It just means he is listening to bad advice. All other scenarios are actually likely far worse for the future of the Bulls. Unless that is, this thinking would continue in lockstep into the future, leading to an eventual standoff over roster build.

I agree, I outlined that, the best scenario for his on court play is that he both healthy and not mentally weak, of course that's the worst off the court scenario. But off court issues can possibly be resolved by conversation and negotiation, injuries, not so much.


BB - How do you explain the December article that predicted the current (unlikely) situation? It's a monkey wrench in your working theory, and my previous working theory, for sure.

I've read 90% of these threads or trying and either I just happen to miss it or nobody will answer that question.

It's Reggie talking to Bucher, obviously. I'm not going to argue with the fact that Reggie's pissed at the FO. But I don't think it's any bigger than that.

But I think it's a leap to draw a direct line from his words to Rose's rehab situation: that Derrick is being deliberately held back by his people.

To me, what makes the most sense, and is consistent with Derrick's own words, is that he is waiting for that final gear to come back, instead of trusting that it will come after he has played some games. That is consistent with his 110% fully confident talk, and also the idea of it mentally feeling right. He has to reestablish that trust with his body. And given how elite he is in that area, the idea that it would take longer to get back to full go doesn't feel off to me.

One of the reasons, probably, that all these former and current athletes are telling Rose to take all the time he needs to feel right is that they know how rare his gifts truly are. There are a lot of guys who are strong in the NBA, there are guys who are quick, and there are guys who have great coordination and touch. There are very few who have them all.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwF8fa0J_fs[/youtube]

If Rose isn't feeling comfortable with his athleticism, he is going to be thinking, not reacting out there on the court, and that makes him a totally different player. And I'm not sure I want him trying to figure that out in the little time there is left this season.

I mean, throughout his career Derrick's given me no reason to doubt his competitiveness, so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt in this case. Two interviews from his brother (one anonymous, one not) are not enough to change that.