Derrick Rose Thread #13 - Acceptance

[Dieselbound&Down]

I doubt Rose personally has this as his fear. I think that would take him studying the history of injuries and identifying this as an issue. If the medical community hasn't studied this or flagged it as an area of concern, don't know how DRose would independently come to this conclusion.

Not to say it could be a worthwhile study. But as much as I respect DRose, I have my doubts that he came up with this concern as the reason he is sitting it out.

[coldfish]

Comparing Rose to Rubio/Shumpert is more reasonable. All that said, I don't see him coming back or not as a super big issue in the big picture of his career.

Derrick, if healthy, could have spent about 6 or 7 years as a near top 5 player. That's 6 or 7 playoff runs. This ACL injury is in the process of taking out almost 1/3 of his prime.

That's a pretty big deal.

[DuckIII]

I doubt Rose personally has this as his fear. I think that would take him studying the history of injuries and identifying this as an issue. If the medical community hasn't studied this or flagged it as an area of concern, don't know how DRose would independently come to this conclusion.

Rose knows more about knees than the doctors though.

[League Circles]

You're right. I doubt anyone on the board has. But since its Gar's premise, and since you seem to agree with it, perhaps one of you can do it since you're going to toss it out there with absolutely no basis?

Toss what out there? I didn't make a claim. I'm not going to waste hours researching something that I'm OK guessing at, because the answer to the question isn't important to me to find, but discussing it can be interesting.

But, just for **** and giggles, IIRC, Legler had lower body injuries after an ACL problem. So, there's at least one example. It can't be proven either way whether or not Legler staying out longer would have decreased the severity or eliminated the occurrence of subsequent injuries.

Oh, and I bet doctors who do this for a living have, and take it into consideration when they clear people. Which, you know, they did. Two months ago. And though inconvenient to whatever tiny shred remains on which to defend Rose's decision without crossed fingers, its hugely significant.

I think you and others are taking the "medically cleared" idea and running with it. All being medically cleared means is that the doctors cannot determine, through their limited guesswork examination capabilities, any reason to think the player has a higher risk of injury than an average player.

My claim is that I think Rose wants to have a much LOWER risk of injury than even a typical "healthy" player - because those guys have substantial risk of injury - they get injured pretty regularly as the last NBA season has shown us. I think Derrick values the time he has left in the league highly enough that he wants to MINIMIZE the chance of reinjury, not just bring that risk in line with average players. And bringing it in line with average players is all the "medical clearance" indicates.

If you ask the doctors that clear him how Rose can minimize the chance for reinjury, they will say that he can minimize it by NOT playing. Indefinitely/forever. Anyone familiar with the mathematics of nature would know that OF COURSE there is an idealized behavioral way to MARGINALLY strengthen the attachment of his ACL on an ongoing basis, as well as the strength and muscle memory of the surrounding tissues, and that that behavior likely involves NOT playing games due to the elevated risk of rupture (vs practice). And, FWIW, I've posted info in these threads from 3rd party doctors that show that some doctors indeed DO think rehab before returning to the court should be 1 year (as opposed to the more common thought of 6 -9 months). Cole said 8-12 months. We're less than 12 months now. The medical clearance is the claim of physical evaluation, and is not the same as medical recommendation. I don't think any doctor would medically recommend Rose play until he says he feels ready. Doctors perform and eval, and THEN talk to the patient, and only recommend based on what the patient says. Doctors simply don't recommend doing physical activity that people are uncomfortable with, other than maybe physical therapy (like rehab to walk properly, not rehab to do an extreme, violent, traumatic game).

Yes, there is therpeutic benefit in playing games, but that doesn't mean that that stage is advised by Doctors before Rose says he's ready.

I'm just spelling all this out because of the absurd notion and claim that Rose is "defying doctors orders" or "refusing to play". Those are false.

[The 6ft Hurdle]

I havent paid much attention to these threads lately, but Im guessing something is being overlooked.

Premise: rose wants, perhaps more than anything, to play the rest of his career without injury - to be in optimum physical condition.

While everyone compares his rehab time to other players who came back quicker, has anyone done a study of how many of those guys over time had lower extremity injuries after they came back from acl, whether right away or years later?

Derrick probably now believes that how and when he comes back will influence likelihood of lower extremity injuries for many years to come.

So has anyone studied the LONG term lower body health of players post acl rehab? I bet a lot of them have had problems long term that rose wants to avoid MORE THAN ANYTHING.

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But he's been medically cleared! He's disobeying Dr. Cole, and assaulting the whole medical establishment now!

But seriously, good point, and I doubt anyone on the board has.

The list has been discussed ad nauseum. The guys who come back quickly usually have no issues in the long term (guys like Crawford, Lowry, etc.). The guys who took the longest are the ones that never really recovered (Livingston). That isn't to say that taking a long time causes people to have a bad recovery. They took a long time because they were having a bad recovery.

Michael Redd was also on that list --- came back in 9 months, then re-tore, never the same player again.

I was focusing more Paxorf's question raised of studying the long-term body health of players post ACL rehab. Just think it would be interesting to hear more of that, rather than the phases of exploring how financially vested Reggie Rose is (while ignoring JR and the rest of ownership) in having Derrick sit the season.

You're right. I doubt anyone on the board has. But since its Gar's premise, and since you seem to agree with it, perhaps one of you can do it since you're going to toss it out there with absolutely no basis?

Oh, and I bet doctors who do this for a living have, and take it into consideration when they clear people. Which, you know, they did. Two months ago. And though inconvenient to whatever tiny shred remains on which to defend Rose's decision without crossed fingers, its hugely significant.

Hey, its just a good question/suggestion in a sea of accusations. I probably would peer through all the literature if I were compensated for it.

Again, I don't know what the doctors do when they clear patients or what they specifically did with Derrick. But I think asking about those avenues and finding out that information is a lot more interesting than droning on about Derrick's cowardice, chicanery, duplicity, lack of rationality.

[League Circles]

I doubt Rose personally has this as his fear. I think that would take him studying the history of injuries and identifying this as an issue. If the medical community hasn't studied this or flagged it as an area of concern, don't know how DRose would independently come to this conclusion.

Not to say it could be a worthwhile study. But as much as I respect DRose, I have my doubts that he came up with this concern as the reason he is sitting it out.

What do you mean "flagged it as an area of concern"?

I think a lot of people don't understand what doctors do. The medical FACT is that Rose decreases his risk of reinjury by sitting. Why? Because everyone who plays elevates their risk of injury!

I'm not saying he should or will sit forever, because he wants to play. But doctors don't have some agenda to get guys playing basketball. All of their advice is context driven. The player is only advised to play if the player wants and feels ready to play (and the physical exam reveals no problems). If the player doesn't feel ready to play, the doctor will not recommend he play. I bet a lot of doctors would recommend that NO ONE EVER PLAY BASKETBALL.... IF they want to avoid joint problems.

The injury history of players after ACL rehab doesn't need to be flagged as an area of concern, because it's an obvious, deductive area of concern. It doesn't take research. Guy get injured. What's the way to reduce the risk of it? Play LESS. Don't play for as long. Rest LONGER. Now that has to be balanced with atrophy concerns, but Derrick Rose has been working out harder than any of us for many months and will continue to. Atrophy is either no longer a concern, or, it less of one each day.

[DASMACKDOWN]

In light of the news about Westbrook....

We apologize Derrick.

Take as much time as needed. No need to play this year.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

In light of the news about Westbrook....

We apologize Derrick.

Take as much time as needed. No need to play this year.

What?

[DanTown8587]

In light of the news about Westbrook....

We apologize Derrick.

Take as much time as needed. No need to play this year.

What does Westbrook have anything to do with Derrick Rose?

[panthermark]

The Bulls HAD a player that tore his ACL....and I don't think it was ever a concern while he was here.

His name...

Omer Asik

[panthermark]

Westbrook tore his lateral meniscus. I wonder if he will pull a World Peace?

[DASMACKDOWN]

Im scared of Derrick hurting himself. Guys are dropping like flies this year. Im cool with him staying out. This season is jinxed for injuries.

[panthermark]

Im scared of Derrick hurting himself. Guys are dropping like flies this year. Im cool with him staying out. This season is jinxed for injuries.

So was last year...
And there will be injuries next year.

That is why they are paid millions of dollars in guaranteed money.

Rose, nor his kids, never have to work another day their lives. Between his Bulls contrats, and his shoe deal, he has about $200M guaranteed in total.

[Edvedder10]

Damn, Bulls need Rose to have any shot at beating Miami(assuming Bulls handle Nets), and if that happens, the path to the title got a little easier with Westbrook out. One Heat injury and these playoffs get a lot more interesting.

[DASMACKDOWN]

Im scared of Derrick hurting himself. Guys are dropping like flies this year. Im cool with him staying out. This season is jinxed for injuries.

So was last year...
And there will be injuries next year.

That is why they are paid millions of dollars in guaranteed money.

Rose, nor his kids, never have to work another day their lives. Between his Bulls contrats, and his shoe deal, he has about $200M guaranteed in total.

Nah this year is WAY worse in terms of injuries.

The issue isnt that he gets paid to play. The issue is, he isnt confident to play which can cause other issues.

The fact that the one player who plays closest to his own game just freakishly torn his meniscus, is enough for pause.

[Edvedder10]

Im scared of Derrick hurting himself. Guys are dropping like flies this year. Im cool with him staying out. This season is jinxed for injuries.

So was last year...
And there will be injuries next year.

That is why they are paid millions of dollars in guaranteed money.

Rose, nor his kids, never have to work another day their lives. Between his Bulls contrats, and his shoe deal, he has about $200M guaranteed in total.

Nah this year is WAY worse in terms of injuries.

The issue isnt that he gets paid to play. The issue is, he isnt confident to play which can cause other issues.

The fact that the one player who plays closest to his own game just freakishly torn his meniscus, is enough for pause.

Oh c'mon, World Peace tore his, and he isn't a PG.

[PMONSTER]

Im scared of Derrick hurting himself. Guys are dropping like flies this year. Im cool with him staying out. This season is jinxed for injuries.

So was last year...
And there will be injuries next year.

That is why they are paid millions of dollars in guaranteed money.

Rose, nor his kids, never have to work another day their lives. Between his Bulls contrats, and his shoe deal, he has about $200M guaranteed in total.

So if he played in the NFL then you would be ok with what Rose is doing?

Doubt it

Besides I don't think DaSmackdown was worrying about money. Or even Rose for that matter

[WestsideResider]

Anyone seen the new Adidas spot with Holiday, Lillard and Wall? Looks like Adidas has kinda moved on.

[HomoSapien]

Im scared of Derrick hurting himself. Guys are dropping like flies this year. Im cool with him staying out. This season is jinxed for injuries.

So was last year...
And there will be injuries next year.

That is why they are paid millions of dollars in guaranteed money.

Rose, nor his kids, never have to work another day their lives. Between his Bulls contrats, and his shoe deal, he has about $200M guaranteed in total.

Nah this year is WAY worse in terms of injuries.

The issue isnt that he gets paid to play. The issue is, he isnt confident to play which can cause other issues.

The fact that the one player who plays closest to his own game just freakishly torn his meniscus, is enough for pause.

Come on, this is way overboard. This is akin to asking your kids not to drive because you knew someone who got in a car accident.

[Dieselbound&Down]

Why do you think doctors are in the business of preventing future injury without any other context. Sure, tell him to never leave the house. But that has nothing to do with this conversation since Rose plays basketball and the goal is not to avoid any chance of reinjury but rather to get him back to peak physical form.

And I think it is relevant that doctors haven't flagged it for 2 reasons. (1) I haven't seen anything to show that doctors have a particular fear that athletes coming off an ACL repair have a higher risk of injury to the knee or other lower body parts. There *may* be a higher risk but this hasn't been proven and isn't a strong enough issue that doctors have tried to get it studied. (2) There are none of these studies or literature to read. For Rose to come up with the conclusion you expressed, Rose would have to do significant research on his own time into case histories of people coming off ACL surgeries and be looking for a pattern the doctors who do this daily are themselves missing. Why do you believe Rose is the Erin Brokovich of orthopedics? He may or may not have taken the ACT and he has 1 semester of college. He's a basketball player not a medical researcher.