Lebron right now vs Shaq at his best: who is more valuable?

[Benedict_Boozer]

Shaq, Shaq, and Shaq. Lebron is great, unstoppable, and he makes everyone pay for being on the court with him. Shaq steamrolled people though. He never took over 20 field goal attempts per game and he was still the best scorer by far. Hell he scored 38 ppg on the DPOY in the Finals.

[rrravenred]

Might shade it Shaq's way for a couple of reasond.

Firstly, defence. Lebron has turned into a great defender, based on a somewhat unorthodox small-ball model that requires multiple adept help defenders acting in concert. Shaq, OTOH, is the classic Big Man shotblocker/intimidator. Simple plan: funnel slashers into the zone of influence and watch the bricks fly. In that respect, you can build an efficient defence with less talented interior defenders. There is, however, still an era bias. Shaq wasn't astonishingly mobile, and in today's game where stretch Cs are more common than not, that could be exploited.

Secondly, offensive distortion. The modern exhibit A for this was 2011 Dirk. This is the player who disrupts defensive structures and plans by the unstoppability of their skillset in a certain area of the floor. Shaq's low-post game has this effect, drawing the extra man automatically as if by magic. Lebron's post game isn't as refined, and a player on the perimeter doesn't a threat anywhere near as imminent, giving the defence time for a countermove (see point A).

There are definitely points in Lebron's favour (shooting, perimeter creation, full court game), but the two points above summarise Shaq's advantage, for mine...

[RayBan-Sematra]

Huh? Did you pull that out of your butt? When Shaq was playing people remarked that it wasn't fair because he had no peer and that he was the last real center, as Robinson/Olajuwon/et al got old.

Shaq was playing on par with Peak Hakeem by his 3rd year and thoroughly outplayed him in their 96 & 97 matchups.
He also outplayed guys like Prime Ewing & Mourning throughout the 90's.
He also put up great playoff performances against teams like the 96 Bulls.

He proved himself VS tough competition.

In the early 00's he faced Prime Duncan, Robinson, DPOY Mutombo, Sheed/Sabonis and looking outside of individual competition he faced much tougher teams.

The early 00's West was incomparably stronger then this years Eastern Conference.

Shaq wasn't astonishingly mobile, and in today's game where stretch Cs are more common than not, that could be exploited.

Peak Shaq and really any version of Shaq prior to 02 was incredibly athletic overall and had amazingly quick feet for a man of his stature.

Obviously he wasn't the most mobile C ever but he was mobile enough that I wouldn't think it would lead to exploitation even in today's game.
I am not sure there is any starting C today more mobile then Peak Shaq was.

Maybe Howard... and that is only a maybe.

I think people forget just how athletic and mobile Shaq was because they only remember him from his 07-10 years where he had maybe 5% of his Prime athletic ability left.

[mopper8]

This is Shaq... pretty easily imo.

Saying "by far" is imo quite silly and that is just your opinion.

A little inconsistent there.

I think this is pretty close. Shaq's weaknesses are being somewhat papered over. 1 - he was never a good PnR defender, even at his peak. Quick feet? Yes. Lateral mobility, not so much. 2 - his FT shooting made him a liability at the end of close games. 3 - he relies on guards to initiate the offense and get him the ball.

Shaq was crazy dominant but he was not a perfect player. I don't think the answer is easy or either player is better by far.

[acrossthecourt]

You never answered me about defensive win shares. Please explain why you think it's a valid point in assessing Shaq's defense versus LeBron's.

[RayBan-Sematra]

A little inconsistent there.

By "pretty easily" I was trying to say that it is clearly Shaq but not necessarily by a huge margin.

1 - he was never a good PnR defender, even at his peak. Quick feet? Yes. Lateral mobility, not so much.

I would say he was atleast "above average" at defending the PnR at his Peak.
I certainly wouldn't consider it a weakness of his.

Most teams that burned the Lakers with the PnR ran the play through their PF's (Malone, KG, Webber etc..)

2 - his FT shooting made him a liability at the end of close games.

Not really. If you fouled him in the last two minutes when he wasn't attempting a shot then you could select any player to get the FT's for him and if you fouled him while he was attempting a shot there was a good chance he would made it anyway and then go for a 3pt play.

3 - he relies on guards to initiate the offense and get him the ball.

So? It takes 1-3 seconds to dump the ball down into the post.

[RayBan-Sematra]

You never answered me about defensive win shares. Please explain why you think it's a valid point in assessing Shaq's defense versus LeBron's.

Throwing DWS aside Peak Shaq was one of the best post defenders, rim protectors and m2m defenders of his generation.
The only aspect of defense he was not truly elite at was his defense outside of the paint on switches and due to his extra strong effort he was actually pretty decent at it that year.

He was a truly elite defensive anchor that year.

Lebron at no point in his career can come close to replicating that type of impact or value on the defensive end.

[B-easy]

Lebron can take a 30 win team to a 60 win team.

Can shaq do that?

[Rasho_libre]

Its the same lakers fans in every thread. You guys discuss Lebron more than heat/cavs/ Lebron. LOLbots

In all seriousness though its shaq. I'd take him over MJ at peak because of how dominant he was. You can put any decent team around him with an at least another all star and they win titles.

[E-Balla]

Lebron can take a 30 win team to a 60 win team.

And not beat a 50 win team in the playoffs. Yay!

[mopper8]

2 - his FT shooting made him a liability at the end of close games.

Not really. If you fouled him in the last two minutes when he wasn't attempting a shot then you could select any player to get the FT's for him and if you fouled him while he was attempting a shot there was a good chance he would made it anyway and then go for a 3pt play.

You are really arguing Shaq's FTs weren't a liability? We must have watched a different Shaq

3 - he relies on guards to initiate the offense and get him the ball.

So? It takes 1-3 seconds to dump the ball down into the post.

You can't really believe this. If you watch basketball as mucha as you seem to, I do not know how you could miss the various ways teams can make it incredibly difficult to get the ball into the post, and not just ITO of how they defend, but how they defend the guard tasked with getting it to the big.

[RayBan-Sematra]

You are really arguing Shaq's FTs weren't a liability? We must have watched a different Shaq

They were a weakness which made him a less effective scorer then he could have been.
Saying that they made him a liability in almost all cases is an exaggeration and is untrue.

You can't really believe this. If you watch basketball as mucha as you seem to, I do not know how you could miss the various ways teams can make it incredibly difficult to get the ball into the post, and not just ITO of how they defend, but how they defend the guard tasked with getting it to the big.

When you are as massive, long and athletic as Prime Shaq was it is pretty hard for opposing teams to rely on ball denial.
Shaq was a master of foiling ball denial and any team that featured Shaq as the focal point of their offense is going to soon get experienced and effective at dealing with it.

Opposing teams are generally going to allow Shaq to get the ball or they are going to need to collapse their own defense and put themselves at a great disadvantage if they want to seriously try and stop him from getting the ball.

[Rasho_libre]

Lebron can take a 30 win team to a 60 win team.

And not beat a 50 win team in the playoffs. Yay!

You try so hard in every thread. All about cavs Lebron too.

[te887848]

Saying "by far" is imo quite silly and that is just your opinion.
Imo Peak Shaq was the most dominant player ever followed quite closely by Peak Jordan.

Based on what? LeBron has better stats than Shaq, has a broader impact (halfcourt scoring, post game, midrange game, three-point game, passing, defense, man-to-man defense, transition defense), and has proven that he can win with far less help than Shaq (66 wins with a trash Cleveland squad, no way Shaq could do that when he needed guys like peak Kobe, peak Wade, and peak Penny just to squeak by in the playoffs).

We are comparing Peak years not career so this is irrelevant.

It is relevant. Peak Shaq = Lakers Shaq. The same Shaq who “got hurt on company time” and therefore decided to “rehab during company time.” The same guy who routinely missed double-digit games in the regular season. When you’re comparing Shaq to someone obviously worse like Durant or Howard, sure the durability argument doesn’t matter. But when comparing him to someone as good/better, of course LeBron’s immunity to injury and maximum effort given is a factor to consider.

Lebron can't guard power C's or PF's.

Peak Shaq was most certainly commited to defense and he was a true defensive anchor who could lock down the entire paint while shutting down his man.
Lebron is a great defensive wing but he can't anchor a defense the way Shaq could and his defensive impact is not even close to Peak Shaqs.

Sure he can – he was guarding 270 lb. Zach Randolph during their matchups with the Grizzlies earlier this year. Is it a smart thing to do during the playoffs for long periods given the physical toll it would take on him and considering how much effort he needs to expend on the offensive end as well? Probably not, but the very fact that he periodically defends players from every position (PG through C) speaks to his unprecedented versatility as a defender. Perhaps no other player in NBA history could effectively defend players at every single position, never mind while carrying the load LeBron does offensively. Not to mention how moot this argument is, since Shaq couldn’t dream of moving his feet 2 feet outside the paint to play defense, much less defend multiple positions.

People will think you're a Troll if you say things like this.
Peak Shaq was all muscle.

No he was not. An amazing physical specimen with incredible mass who had great mobility/fluidity for someone his size, but all muscle he was not. That’s simply a lie that can be disproven by googling images of “Lakers Shaq.”

Shaq was a better m2m defender and his help defense in the paint was much more impactful then Lebrons help defense on the wing.

No he wasn’t a better man to man defender. Show me instances of Shaq completely shutting down the opposing team’s best offensive player. He never had any competition worth mentioning at his position. He played against joke centers. Nobody he guarded one on one was any good. Never at any point in his career did the thought arise, “Man, the opposing team’s best player is lighting us up. We gotta find a way to contain him. I know, let’s put Shaq on him!” This thought process occurs during every Heat game and yields tremendous success. LeBron shuts down the league’s best offensive players.

More efficient, consistent and unstoppable scorer from the field.
Better offensive rebounder.
Collapses defenses better and draws more defensive attention.
Much greater off ball threat.

He’s not more efficient. Shaq has never been as efficient as LeBron is right now. LeBron is the better scorer (yields just as many if not more points), the more versatile scorer (post, midrange, penetration, 3, transition), and the more efficient scorer.

Hack-A-Shaq was a strategy formed out of desperation and it worked once in a blue moon.
It was almost akin to giving up or throwing a flea flicker (football).

There are certain teams (even this year) who have had real success at times frustrating Lebron in the halfcourt and preventing him from scoring.
Shaq was far more dangerous and unstoppable from the field.

It’s strategy which limits Shaq’s utility in late-game situations and thus diminishes his impact as an offensive player compared to guys like Jordan and LeBron, who are just as (if not more) statistically dominant and far more versatile in their offensive repertoire but do not have to rely on another top-flight #1 option-level player (Kobe, Wade) to bail them out in 4th quarters. LeBron is far more unstoppable than Shaq. Never has Shaq single-handedly carried a scrub team to 66 wins or had a performance like LeBron’s 2007 ECF Game 5 or 2012 ECF Game 6. Those games were the very definition of unstoppable.

Shaq was an amazing playmaker at the C position.
Obviously he isn't gonna create as many raw assists as Lebron but he will collapse defenses much better then James and is much more dangerous off the ball thus making it much easier for his supporting players to create their own offense while also creating many raw and hockey type assists.

Pretty irrelevant to the discussion of both players as playmakers. One is better than the other. It doesn’t matter if Shaq was a good playmaker “at the C position.” There’s simply no question that LeBron is the infinitely better playmaker/passer and elevates the level of play of his teammates to a far greater degree.

And his fast-break scoring, and his rebounding, and his defense, and his playmaking ability, and his ability to collapse defenses, and his off ball ability and, and, and.

No, his fast break scoring was not meaningful. And his defense and playmaking are worse than LeBron’s. LeBron’s value lies in the fact that his impact both offensively and defensively extends the entire 94-ft length of a basketball court. The moment Wade gets a rebound, LeBron can leak out for a full-court alley-oop. The moment LeBron gets a rebound, he can go end to end in the blink of an eye. If LeBron catches the ball with his back to the rim from 15 ft out, he can fade away for an easy two. He can blow by his defender and finish over anybody. If he’s 25 feet out from the rim, he can hit threes at a 40% clip. If a team corrals a defensive the defensive rebound and has what would ordinarily be a surefire guaranteed fast-break opportunity leading to an easy 2 points, LeBron can run the entire length of the court and single-handedly stop their fast break. When an opposing team’s 20+ PPG star player is lighting them up, the solution is often as simple as putting LeBron on him one on one expecting him to simply lock him down all by himself. He is the perfect basketball player, dominant at anything and everything you could possibly do in the game of basketball. Shaq was a great player and one of the all-time dominant forces, but he obviously did not have the all-around impact at all facets of the game that LeBron has.

[RayBan-Sematra]

and has proven that he can win with far less help than Shaq

Lebron's 2011-2013 casts are far better then any cast Shaq won titles with (especially his 00 & 02 casts) and the early 10's East is a far weaker conference then the early 00's West.

Shaq proved he could win titles with much weaker casts then Lebron needed against tougher competition.

I can't imagine Shaq at his Peak losing in the 2011 Finals with Prime Wade at his side.

But when comparing him to someone as good/better, of course LeBron’s immunity to injury and maximum effort given is a factor to consider.

We are comparing Peak years (1 year) so games played and effort given is not relevant.

Probably not, but the very fact that he periodically defends players from every position (PG through C) speaks to his unprecedented versatility as a defender.

Except like I said he cannot guard powerful/long PF's or C's effectively.
He is a very versatile defender but more versatile doesn't automatically mean better.

since Shaq couldn’t dream of moving his feet 2 feet outside the paint to play defense, much less defend multiple positions.

And Lebron couldn't dream of single handedly shutting down the paint while simultaneously shutting down his man.

Peak Shaq was all muscle.

No he was not.

He was all muscle in 00.

No he wasn’t a better man to man defender. Show me instances of Shaq completely shutting down the opposing team’s best offensive player.

Colts18 quite recently posted a thread showing how Shaq consistently held opposing C's to low shooting percentages.

He never had any competition worth mentioning at his position.

Yeah guys like Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Duncan, Mourning were all nobodies.

LeBron shuts down the league’s best offensive players.

Lebron rarely guards guys like Durant, Kobe or other talented offensive guards/wings.
They usually put Wade, Allen or someone else on them.

Shaq has never been as efficient as LeBron is right now.

He was more efficient, consistent and unstoppable from the field.

Never has Shaq single-handedly carried a scrub team to 66 wins or had a performance like LeBron’s 2007 ECF Game 5 or 2012 ECF Game 6.

Carrying that 00 Lakers squad (who only had baby Kobe & roleplayers) to 68 wins in a far tougher western conference is arguably just as impressive.

Plus Shaq won titles with supporting casts much weaker then Lebron had the last two years against much tougher competition.

@ the bolded : Shaq had plenty of playoff performances that were arguably more impressive then that.

Shaq was a great player and one of the all-time dominant forces, but he obviously did not have the all-around impact at all facets of the game that LeBron has.

Offensively : Tie (or edge Shaq)
Defensively : Shaq
Intangibles : Shaq
Overall : Shaq

Shaq was a greater overall force.
Lebron is great but you are overrating him and seeing him as flawless.

Offensively he can still get frustrated by certain teams in the halfcourt and defensively he cannot impact the game the way elite defensive C's & PF's can.

[Rasho_libre]

Shaq does not have a defensive edge. His only edge and main edge is the reason I would take him over anybody is he is the most dominant ever at his peak. There is no game planning for shaq at his peak .

[ushvinder88]

There is an argument for both players but i disagree with the crowd that says lebron has surpassed shaq as an efficient offensive scorer. Shaq played before the rule changes in 2005, the rule changes these days heavily inflate the PER of a wing player. When shaq was winning his PER titles from 1998-2002, he was dominating the competition by a much higher margin. When lebron had his monster 2009 season, two other players had a PER above 30, this era is clearly stat inflated. Lebron is great, but his stats would drop somewhat if he played in the hand checking era, this is common sense.

1999: Shaq's PER was 30.6, everyone else below 26
2000: Shaq's PER was 30.6, everyone else below 27.2
2001: Shaq's PER was 30.2, the rest of the league below 25.2. Complete domination.

Lebron is not the more efficient offensive player, he just plays in a stat inflated era due to the rule changes in 2005.

[NO-KG-AI]

PER is relative to league average.

[Dr Pepper]

Shaqs peak vs Lebron 2013 season: who was more valuable, more dominant and better individual player? Very tough question, but...

More valuable - The talent is close enough that most would vote for whoever played more minutes and games. Let's say Shaq's peak is his 2000 season where he averaged 40 minutes and played in 79 games which means he actually beats 2013's James numbers like 38 minutes and 76 games. However for most of their primes I would say LeBron is slightly more valuable because of Shaq's durability concerns.

More Dominant - It's a generalization but it's true enough: Shaq was overall more dominant and his combination of sheer size and talent is outstandingly uncanny (Shaq's feet and screens could be dominant weapons by themselves), but LeBron's dominance was more versatile on both ends of the court and in all 4 quarters.

Better Individual Player - I'd say LeBron because imo he can rival Shaq's dominance while generally playing more minutes and games, while also doing more on both ends of the court whether its handling the ball or being able to defend against 4 positions including a MVP PG albeit a controversial MVP winner

Peak goes to Shaq but I'm leaning towards LeBron for their primes and as the better individual player. Hard to say no to a player that brings elite defense, ball handling, and scoring....but it's also hard to say no to arguably the most dominant player to ever play the game in Shaq. Crazy that both needed Wade to win in the past 8 years or so though And damn it wasn't too long ago that Shaq bought a Bentley for LeBron on the Cavs...we are getting old

[colts18]

I have to disagree. Lebron would hold the ball for nearly the whole possession, and either shoot or dump it off giving his teammate very little time to do anything but force up a shot. it was like some 13 year old was controlling Lebron with a XBox controller, and forgot there were 4 other players on the floor.

He put up NBA2k9 type numbers, but everyone around him regressed that series.

How many times does it need to be stated to you before you finally get it, LeBron's ballhogging was not a problem at all. In fact, it helped the Cavs. They had a 112.9 O rating with him. Last I checked, that was higher than what Kobe did vs. the magic.

LeBron had a game of 126.3 O rating and 114.9 O rating that he lost. That's absurd. You can't blame an offense that played like that.