Lebron right now vs Shaq at his best: who is more valuable?

[ushvinder88]

PER is relative to league average.

I disagree, in 2009 3 players had a PER above 30, that is clearly a product of wing players getting thier stats inflated because handchechking is gone and the pace went back up. PER favours guys who have the ball in thier hands all the time. No way wade posts a per above 30 if he plays from 97-2001.

[ThatsWhatIShved]

I have to disagree. Lebron would hold the ball for nearly the whole possession, and either shoot or dump it off giving his teammate very little time to do anything but force up a shot. it was like some 13 year old was controlling Lebron with a XBox controller, and forgot there were 4 other players on the floor.

He put up NBA2k9 type numbers, but everyone around him regressed that series.

How many times does it need to be stated to you before you finally get it, LeBron's ballhogging was not a problem at all. In fact, it helped the Cavs. They had a 112.9 O rating with him. Last I checked, that was higher than what Kobe did vs. the magic.

LeBron had a game of 126.3 O rating and 114.9 O rating that he lost. That's absurd. You can't blame an offense that played like that.

Yes you can. A 112.9 ORTG sounds great, until you realize how stacked the Cavs were offensively, and that they were underachieving because of Lebron's ballhogging. Tons of 3pt shooters, a C who can hit 18 footers, one of the best offensive rebounders at PF...O_O That team should have been playing at a 120+ORTG, but Lebron's ball dominance hindered them, very similiar to what we see from the Heat. The Heat without Lebron won games at a pace that would have rivaled the 96 Bulls record. Anyone can win games on insanely stacked teams in a weak and injured era, but few can turn good teams into legendary teams, which Lebron has proven he cannot do.

[MaliBrah]

shaq but by a bit

[Mutnt]

PER is relative to league average.

I disagree, in 2009 3 players had a PER above 30, that is clearly a product of wing players getting thier stats inflated because handchechking is gone and the pace went back up. PER favours guys who have the ball in thier hands all the time. No way wade posts a per above 30 if he plays from 97-2001.

This is the early frontrunner for worst post of the year award. Almost everything is hilariously wrong.

Dude disagreed that PER is relative to league average, wow. That's like me disagreeing with the pythagorean theorem or something... Not only that, but PER is also pace adjusted, yet you're trying to prove that because the pace went up (another in a long line of false statements) that somehow resulted in a PER inflation. I'm rolling with laughter.

The 'PER favors guys who have the ball in their hands all the time' point is also moot. Naturally, the guys who have the ball in their hands most of the time for their teams will be the most productive, that's logical because unless you're a deadly catch&shoot type of player, you'll need the ball in your hands to be productive. The important thing here is how much impact you have on your team's play with the ball in your hands, and LeBron clearly is one of the best in this regard. PER is just one of the statistical formulae that back this up.

[JordansBulls]

Based on what? LeBron has better stats than Shaq, has a broader impact (halfcourt scoring, post game, midrange game, three-point game, passing, defense, man-to-man defense, transition defense), and has proven that he can win with far less help than Shaq (66 wins with a trash Cleveland squad, no way Shaq could do that when he needed guys like peak Kobe, peak Wade, and peak Penny just to squeak by in the playoffs).

In what way does he have better stats? Remember in Shaq's peak year you had more stars in there primes at the time than you do nowadays.

[colts18]

In what way does he have better stats? Remember in Shaq's peak year you had more stars in there primes at the time than you do nowadays.

Who were the star players in 2000?

[E-Balla]

In what way does he have better stats? Remember in Shaq's peak year you had more stars in there primes at the time than you do nowadays.

Who were the star players in 2000?

Duncan, Hill, Payton, Vince, Malone, KG, and Zo are all better than the 5th best player this season IMO.

[arifgokcen]

I have to disagree. Lebron would hold the ball for nearly the whole possession, and either shoot or dump it off giving his teammate very little time to do anything but force up a shot. it was like some 13 year old was controlling Lebron with a XBox controller, and forgot there were 4 other players on the floor.

He put up NBA2k9 type numbers, but everyone around him regressed that series.

How many times does it need to be stated to you before you finally get it, LeBron's ballhogging was not a problem at all. In fact, it helped the Cavs. They had a 112.9 O rating with him. Last I checked, that was higher than what Kobe did vs. the magic.

LeBron had a game of 126.3 O rating and 114.9 O rating that he lost. That's absurd. You can't blame an offense that played like that.

Yes you can. A 112.9 ORTG sounds great, until you realize how stacked the Cavs were offensively, and that they were underachieving because of Lebron's ballhogging. Tons of 3pt shooters, a C who can hit 18 footers, one of the best offensive rebounders at PF...O_O That team should have been playing at a 120+ORTG, but Lebron's ball dominance hindered them, very similiar to what we see from the Heat. The Heat without Lebron won games at a pace that would have rivaled the 96 Bulls record. Anyone can win games on insanely stacked teams in a weak and injured era, but few can turn good teams into legendary teams, which Lebron has proven he cannot do.

Dude trolling has a limit but you dont.Nice one i just wanna point out one thing.During last 3 years cavs without lebron only won one game against a injury plagued spurs out of 14 games.

THAT information right there would shut up every logical poster yet i know you are gonna troll again.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Seriously? peak shaq was twice the player of current Lebron.

[ushvinder88]

PER is relative to league average.

I disagree, in 2009 3 players had a PER above 30, that is clearly a product of wing players getting thier stats inflated because handchechking is gone and the pace went back up. PER favours guys who have the ball in thier hands all the time. No way wade posts a per above 30 if he plays from 97-2001.

This is the early frontrunner for worst post of the year award. Almost everything is hilariously wrong.

Dude disagreed that PER is relative to league average, wow. That's like me disagreeing with the pythagorean theorem or something... Not only that, but PER is also pace adjusted, yet you're trying to prove that because the pace went up (another in a long line of false statements) that somehow resulted in a PER inflation. I'm rolling with laughter.

The 'PER favors guys who have the ball in their hands all the time' point is also moot. Naturally, the guys who have the ball in their hands most of the time for their teams will be the most productive, that's logical because unless you're a deadly catch&shoot type of player, you'll need the ball in your hands to be productive. The important thing here is how much impact you have on your team's play with the ball in your hands, and LeBron clearly is one of the best in this regard. PER is just one of the statistical formulae that back this up.

worst post of the year? LOL. Yeah its just a coincidence that in 2006 6 players had a PER above 26.5, in 2009 3 players put up a PER above 30 and in general there are more players since the 2005 rules changes that are putting up PERs above 26, the rule changes which favour guards has nothing to do with this right genius.

Was 2006 KG better than 2003 KG, i mean according to your criteria he was. Every star player from 2006-2009 saw thier PERs get inflated, to deny this is beyond laughable. Elton brand posted a PER of 26.8, Amare freakin Stoudemire in 2008 posted a PER of 27.6. Do you really think they would have pulled this off in the 1997-2004 era?

In 2001 T-mac, Kobe, Duncan, Garnett all struggled to put up PERS above 25, but chris paul of 2009 is equivalent to absolute peak Shaq, lol get out. For god sakes just compare the top 30 PERs from 1997-2004 with the top 30 PERs from 2005-2013 and tell me that you dont see a major stat inflation.

I love chris paul but to suggest his PER in 2009 is equal to the PERs shaq put up from 1998-2002 when he was annilating the league in that stat is beyond ridiculous.

In the 2005-06 season, 8 players posted a PER above 25.5, yeah thats right 8 freakin players. You are going to tell me PER adjustes to each era properly? lol. 2 years earlier only 2 players hit that mark, damn I didnt know the nba evovled that fast. Oh wait there was a change in the rules prior to the 2005 season, geez i think that explains why players are getting inflated stats.

Better yet, explain this logic to me. Why is it that from 1997-2004, Tracy Mcgrady and Michael Jordan are the only non-post players to record a PER above 27. Every other PER above 27 is recorded by either a center or power forward. Yet, from 2005-2012 almost everyone that records a PER above 27 is either a small forward, shooting guard or point guard. Explain that logic to me genius.

[rza]

Seriously? peak shaq was twice the player of current Lebron.

The hate is strong in this one.

[trakobe]

How many players can you replace instead of Shaq and won 3 peat with that LA squad?
How many players can you replace instead of Lebron and win championship with this Heat squad?

I think these questions answer who more valuable is.

[ShowTimeERA]

How many players can you replace instead of Shaq and won 3 peat with that LA squad?
How many players can you replace instead of Lebron and win championship with this Heat squad?

I think these questions answer who more valuable is.

I believe this is the most logical post in this thread...The level of competition in today's NBA is nowhere near the level of previous era's...

[Gregoire]

it depends on the playoffsperfomanceof Bron, but right now heis slightly more impactfulimo.

[shobe_24]

This Lebron talk is geting impressively pathetic!

Replace Lebron with peak Shaq and they would shatter the 33 game streak. With current rules and talent pool, Shaq would sweep the playoffs in the East as it currently stands. They would also compete for the 72 win mark.

Just imagine:

Chalmers
Wade/Allen
Battier
Bosh/Haslem
Shaq

You kiddies propably haven't seen the NBA pre 07.

[RayBan-Sematra]

Peak Shaq won a Championship in a MUCH tougher conference with a much weaker supporting cast in a league that didn't change its rules to cater to his style of play.

Plus he put up better numbers (then Lebron has thus far).
2000 Shaq PER = 30.5
2013 LBJ PER = 25.8

I don't see any argument for Lebron here thus far.
I am dumbfounded that so many people voted for him.

People need to go back and watch some 00 Shaq games just to remember how good he was.
He wasn't even a player that year he was a force of nature.

[lilroddyb]

I think it is really close

How many players can you replace instead of Shaq and won 3 peat with that LA squad?
How many players can you replace instead of Lebron and win championship with this Heat squad?

I think these questions answer who more valuable is.

Im not sure if he could win 3 with La but he would be playing with Kobe Bryant who is a top ten player alltime and solid role players so they might have a chance.

I think also if you would put lebron on the Magic team in 1995 they might have won houston. imagine Penny, Lebron and Horace grant.

in the playoffs
Lebron has higher ws/48, and has a lot higher tS% just to name a few

[E-Balla]

I think it is really close

How many players can you replace instead of Shaq and won 3 peat with that LA squad?
How many players can you replace instead of Lebron and win championship with this Heat squad?

I think these questions answer who more valuable is.

Im not sure if he could win 3 with La but he would be playing with Kobe Bryant who is a top ten player alltime and solid role players so they might have a chance.

I think also if you would put lebron on the Magic team in 1995 they might have won houston. imagine Penny, Lebron and Horace grant.

in the playoffs
Lebron has higher ws/48, and has a lot higher tS% just to name a few

... No. Hakeem would've murdered Tree Rollins/Horace Grant. Lebron and the Magic would be swept and none of the games would be close.

[kooldude]

I believe this is the most logical post in this thread...The level of competition in today's NBA is nowhere near the level of previous era's...

The level of competition in Shaq's NBA is nowhere near the level of Jordan's era.

The level of competition in Jordan's NBA is nowhere near the level of Magic/Bird's era.

And the if there are enough geezers on this forum, that flawed reasoning will go even further back.

This Lebron talk is geting impressively pathetic!

Replace Lebron with peak Shaq and they would shatter the 33 game streak. With current rules and talent pool, Shaq would sweep the playoffs in the East as it currently stands. They would also compete for the 72 win mark.

Just imagine:

Chalmers
Wade/Allen
Battier
Bosh/Haslem
Shaq

You kiddies propably haven't seen the NBA pre 07.

If this post is trollin, I applaud your efforts. If it's actually your opinion, I strongly encourage you to stick to trollin as it is the only thing of value you can contribute here.

[arifgokcen]

Peak Shaq won a Championship in a MUCH tougher conference with a much weaker supporting cast in a league that didn't change its rules to cater to his style of play.

Plus he put up better numbers (then Lebron has thus far).
2000 Shaq PER = 30.5
2013 LBJ PER = 25.8

I don't see any argument for Lebron here thus far.
I am dumbfounded that so many people voted for him.

People need to go back and watch some 00 Shaq games just to remember how good he was.
He wasn't even a player that year he was a force of nature.

Dude i am not gonna get into a pissing contest but really
2013 LBJ 25.8 dude thats very pathetic trolling attempt.You know he only played against bucks and only 3 games and only in 2nd gear.

If you really wanna compare take lebron 2012 wait him to finish this season