Proky: We need "one more good player" to become elite

[MrDollarBills]

The chances of us getting another superstar/all star? Slim to none.

We'll have to add depth instead. Just guys that can come in and keep the pressure on.

We're not winning anything with this core imo. Too much money tied into Johnson/Wallace.

I take Deron/Lopez all day as my starting pieces. What Silly King added along with those two is a recipe for 1st rd exists and 50 or below wins each year imo

[enetric]

Just for arguments sake, what happens if you can get LMA while keeping Lopez?

Well then you would be cooking with gasoline.

[enetric]

I'd stop following this team entirely if they traded Deron for Wall.

I follow for the name on the front of the jersey, not the back, but that would be such a stupid, bad move.

Wall is a big ball of meh and his potential and ceiling are absurdly overrated at this point.

He's absolutely sucked balls outside of a month or two here and there. I wouldn't doubt he finally gets it and becomes an actual good player, but a top player? Or even just an All Star top 30 level player? Or even just consistent? Doubt it.

He's a full bodied Devin Harris without the self confidence and some half court game.

Listen, I can understand anyone saying that last season. Or, early on this year once he got healthy where he took a while to get going.

But once he did...the guy I watched was easily one of the 5 best players in the NBA the rest of the way. I am guessing you didnt watch much of him and you are putting a lot into past observations. All I am saying is....he looked like a guy primed to be a superstar again.

Additionally I would never even suggest such a thing if Deron Williams was remotely the player some pretend he still is. But Deron at this stage to me is one of the most overrated stars in the NBA. I would say trade him off his strong stat play in the second half while you can.

[enetric]

The chances of us getting another superstar/all star? Slim to none.

We'll have to add depth instead. Just guys that can come in and keep the pressure on.

We're not winning anything with this core imo. Too much money tied into Johnson/Wallace.

I take Deron/Lopez all day as my starting pieces. What Silly King added along with those two is a recipe for 1st rd exists and 50 or below wins each year imo

I agree. Crash and JJ really hamstring what you can do. I have said before to me the most likely scenario is finding another JJ contract. Find a guy making big bucks that a team would give away to save cash and chose from our weak assets along with the Hump salary match. Pau Gasol stands out to me as the most likely option.

But assuming you cant do that...I believe that shifting around coaches, and different low priced role guys with mini exception cash...will produce minimal improvement. That means the only other thing you can do is upgrade one of Deron or Lopez. After this playoff run...if I had to chose I take the 25 year old Lopez and deal Deron. I am not saying he stinks. I am saying he is a valuable player who I believe has major trade value. But also one that I do not think leads this team the next level where I think Lopez is an impressive #2 guy who took a step in this playoff series regardless of outcome.

I would love to have Curry but I cant see GSW trading him for Deron. I am intrigued by Wall as stated because I was beyond impressed with what I saw this season from him. I do not agree with VC4P that it was a rare flash. I understand where he is coming from but I think he knows he laid it on thick for effect. Personally, I believe I saw major progression this year from Wall. I think Wall has the tools to be an elite game changer and for the first time I saw the guy actually play like it. He has the body and skills to be dominant on both sides of the ball.

I could be totally wrong about where he goes from here...but seriously...I wouldnt be shocked at all if a year from now John Wall is playing like an MVP contender.

[MrDollarBills]

That's the thing about trading Deron, who would budge, and what could we get in return.

Wall has excellent all around numbers, although his shooting leaves much to be desired. I expect that to pick up. I doubt the Wizards even think about moving him, Wall and Beal have elite back court potential imo

Golden St and WAS have two of the best young backcourts in basketball. It's scary to think about the competition we'll be facing as this roster's decline will approach sooner than later.

[PetroNet]

I think we either need to upgrade Deron or we are going to need to pile it on. As in turn Hump+Euros+picks into another quality player at a need spot.

I come back to Pau Gasol as a guy I can see available for us.

I honestly wouldnt have a problem with shipping Deron out for a younger PG who is starting to show promise of greatness. I think GSW would laugh at an offer for Curry (although I am sure many will cringe at his health issues)...but I dont know how many people watched John Wall post all star break this year. He was off the charts.

Are the Wizards under the cap? Could we pull an S&T? I am sure some of you will scoff at Wall over Deron...but dont be shocked a year from now if he surpasses him. Not ready to call that a lock. But I will say that I can see Wall still fulfilling his all world promise.

im just not sure whats accomplished by doing that.... maybe we save 5-6 million a year but we are still way over the cap/tax and it wouldnt make us much/any better on the floor. if we moved dwill id want it to be for a similarly talented big and then look for another PG.

Does john wall make us better? im not sure. maybe? who is he going to run with? and it makes us an even more mediocure 3 point shooting team. john wall was great post all-star break, but so was dwill.

thats not a trade id make, unless it came with ALOT of other things

[enetric]

We save nothing. In fact our payroll will go way up long term but that appears to be our greatest advantage over the rest of the league is if we are to believe our owner...he could care less as long as he is improving the team.

You like Nene. So...what if...

July 1st trade:
Wall makes 7.4 mil
Nene makes 13mil

Dwill makes 18.5

A year later Wall gets his mega deal so Nene ends up being an addition on top of that payroll wise.

After you make that deal, go and trade Hump elsewhere, look for a quality wing to play with JJ. Add a low level shooter as well to up the bench. That's a massive improvement if I am right about Wall and if Nene can bounce back. For me I have my reservations about Nene going forward health wise. So many here seem to think he is the guy from a few years ago. I dont see that but assume he has something left...I think that gets us on the way to big improvement.

[PetroNet]

We save nothing. In fact our payroll will go way up long term but that appears to be our greatest advantage over the rest of the league is if we are to believe our owner...he could care less as long as he is improving the team.

You like Nene. So...what if...

So, July 1st trade:
Wall makes 7.4 mil
Nene makes 13mil

Dwill makes 18.5

A year later Wall gets his mega deal so Nene ends up being an addition on top of that payroll wise.

After you make that deal, go and trade Hump elsewhere, look for a quality wing to play with JJ. Add a low level shooter as well to up the bench. That's a massive improvement if I am right about Wall and if Nene can bounce back. For me I have my reservations about Nene going forward health wise. So many here seem to think he is the guy from a few years ago. I dont see that but assume he has something left...I think that gets us on the way to big improvement.

I wouldnt do that. wall getting his max deal only pushes the experiment with this semi-core out much longer and id much rather have Dwill/Nene then Wall/nene + whatever hump would bring.

I just dont see Wall's fit with this roster. With JJ/Lopez wall wont be as effective in the open court and we go from a mediocure 3 point shooting unit to a terrible one. Adding Nene to the current core i think would result in a far better product. And if Wall was inconsistent and dwill played at this level then it would be an enormous screw up on our part.

I just dont like wall unless you have a team that plays up and down, dominates defensively and has 2 assasin shooters on the wings. plus, if you can make wall play in the half court, it really can cause you to struggle offensively. especially with lopez/JJ not being good with ball movment.

im not nearly as high on dwill as most here are, but id still put him above wall, even if you assume wall plays like he did at his peak this year and dwill doesnt improve health wise

[enetric]

It really doesnt. Wall is at the beginning of his career. He is only 22 years old. This move gets you the very big man you want and a PG who has the potential for greatness but is 8 years younger.

And then we still have Hump to trade for other needs.



Wall, get you more up tempo. I think you are deciding that we cant run. I disagree. I think we DONT runt and thats a difference. I think Crash can run. JJ with a healed foot can run. I think any of our bench wings can run. I think you can add low level shooters...and I think we can then trade Hump for a better wing player a pair of decent role guys....to improve man to man D and outside shooting.

Wall to me represents the type of talent that could take everyone up a notch. I also think while he will never be an elite 3 point shooter...I think he can be much more efficient offensive player. Rose couldnt shoot the three when he started in this league either. Wall is improving his shot and his range from what I saw this year.

I agree...he is maximized with two assigned shooters on the wing. JJ is one. Hump's contract get the other....less Crash minutes....but Crash will be more effective transition wise. Plus, I think Wall is going to give you more opportunities for transition not just up tempo. Better D, and he is a better rebounder.

One other thing...Lopez wont impact more up tempo play. I cant stress enough that a 5 doesnt impact that. I dont expect to run all day long. But I think we will have the ability to run. We will get a better fg% per game through a handful of quick baskets. Still going to need Lopez in the half court. Just maximizes our talent better.

As for comparing Deron to Wall. As of today...yes I put Deron above Wall. But at 22 years of age compared to 29 you cant see that gap closing? Plus, I got you the 4 you wanted for the short term and didnt have to spend the Hump contract to do it.. When JJ and Crash are gone...Wall and Lopez are still under 30 where Deron will be a 33 year old oft injured PG.

Deron
JJ
Crash
Lopez
Something for Hump's contract


Wall
JJ
Lopez
Nene

+ something for Humps contract

Even if Wall doesnt improve, I think I built the better team. But...I am betting Wall is going to improve and in a year people are going to be talking about him like he is a legit top 10 star at 23 years of age. And I didnt spend Hump yet while already getting the PF you wanted.

If you dont see merit in it..doubt I just convinced you...but its the better team with a younger star player. If you just dont think much of Wall..that's another story. But I dont know how anyone wouldnt be extremely enthusiastic about him if they saw him a few times this year. The guy I saw once he got up to full minutes this year was fantastic. He just exploded his game to the next level.

I guess I am saying, even if he is less right now than Deron... to get him and Nene....I take the chance that the 22 year old is better today and tomorrow over the 29 year old Deron. Its not like Deron is going to get us to the NBA finals anyway. That isnt happening with this group. It might not happen with Wall either...but I just extended the window of the 1/5 tandem to a point where the right future moves could be a game changer.

[MrDollarBills]

The thought is in the right place. But, if I'm Washington's GM and I get a call from Billy King about Deron for Wall...I hang the phone up.

[aj49689]

The Nets will beat the baby bulls...NOt kidding, Your team will go on to the second round to face miami. The series will go to a game 7 and your Nets will have a chance to win the series with a last second shot. The shot will fall short and the Nets will have almost beaten the HEAT. I am a knicks fan...A man from 7 years ago told me this and much much more.

[PetroNet]

Wall, get you more up tempo. I think you are deciding that we cant run. I disagree. I think we DONT runt and thats a difference. I think Crash can run. JJ with a healed foot can run. I think any of our bench wings can run. I think you can add low level shooters...and I think we can then trade Hump for a better wing player a pair of decent role guys....to improve man to man D and outside shooting.

i dont think a healthy JJ runs. ive never seen it out of him, here or in atlanta. he just doesnt get up the floor. wall can run, but not by himself. our bench wings suck, sure they can run, but if you have marhson on the floor you are really hurting yourself in like 6 other areas.

Wall to me represents the type of talent that could take everyone up a notch. I also think while he will never be an elite 3 point shooter...I think he can be much more efficient offensive player. Rose couldnt shoot the three when he started in this league either. Wall is improving his shot and his range from what I saw this year.

i dont see it, i dont see him elevating anyone. especially if you can make him a half court player, which wouuld be easier since you dont have other guys running with him and can swarm him in transition.

One other thing...Lopez wont impact more up tempo play. I cant stress enough that a 5 doesnt impact that. I dont expect to run all day long. But I think we will have the ability to run. We will get a better fg% per game through a handful of quick baskets. Still going to need Lopez in the half court. Just maximizes our talent better.

i couldnt possibly disagree more. a horrible rebounding center who is terrible getting the outlet pass out quick and who walks up the floor certainly hurts the fast break game. sure not as much as JJ kills it, but still. we would be better on the break, but not by leaps and bounds, and we would take an enormous hit in the half court

As for comparing Deron to Wall. As of today...yes I put Deron above Wall. But at 22 years of age compared to 29 you cant see that gap closing? Plus, I got you the 4 you wanted for the short term and didnt have to spend the Hump contract to do it.. When JJ and Crash are gone...Wall and Lopez are still under 30 where Deron will be a 33 year old oft injured PG.

i dont see that gap closing to the point where the trade makes sense. by the time it did we would have deron/wallace/jj/brook all at the end of their contracts anyway

Deron
JJ
Crash
Lopez
Something for Hump's contract


Wall
JJ
Lopez
Nene

+ something for Humps contract

i think the deron team is leaps and bounds better to where i cant even consider the wall team. unless we could turn humphries into a superstar 2 like harden then i dont want any part of that deal.

If you dont see merit in it..doubt I just convinced you...but its the better team with a younger star player. If you just dont think much of Wall..that's another story. But I dont know how anyone wouldnt be extremely enthusiastic about him if they saw him a few times this year. The guy I saw once he got up to full minutes this year was fantastic. He just exploded his game to the next level.

ive watched every single wizards game this year that he played(not live) and all of his rookie year. he is my favorite non-net in the league. i was crushed when we missed him in the draft. id love to have him, but he isnt a better fit then deron. its too easy to slow this group down, and we would be really bad in the half court with less shooting and such a terrible bbiq and bad passing

I guess I am saying, even if he is less right now than Deron... to get him and Nene....I take the chance that the 22 year old is better today and tomorrow over the 29 year old Deron. Its not like Deron is going to get us to the NBA finals anyway. That isnt happening with this group. It might not happen with Wall either...but I just extended the window of the 1/5 tandem to a point where the right future moves could be a game changer.

i see your point, but i dont want to extend the window with this team. i want to maximize it and then blow it up in 3-5 years

[aj49689]

Trading for wall would be smart but this team will need another year to gel anyways. I know Deron and Brook have been here longer but they all still need time.

[enetric]

The thought is in the right place. But, if I'm Washington's GM and I get a call from Billy King about Deron for Wall...I hang the phone up.

I agree with you. Most likely that is the result. 7, 8 years age difference tends to go a long way into a team's thought process. But I would still make the call. Wall is up for his max contract...Nene was a mistake that so many around here seem to want to take on. Odd to me in that he is a JJ like pick up. But who knows. A chance to stream line and still have a go to guy in Deron could appeal to a smaller market team.

And then we would still have Hump's contract to shop. Some like Eric Gordon around here. Personally the idea of Nene, and Gordon on the same team makes me ill...but hey worst case still have Crash and Reggie on the team so back to where we started. So those 40 games a year of Gordon or Nene could come in handy if they are around come playoff time...lol.

[enetric]

Trading for wall would be smart but this team will need another year to gel anyways. I know Deron and Brook have been here longer but they all still need time.

See that's part of my thinking. No one in the EC is getting past the Heat for the next 3 years. Deron will be 29 at the start of the next season. Where is he really taking us? Wall is 7 years younger. We would be just as competitive for today and by the time we are ready to take the next step Brook would be in his prime and Wall would just be coming into his prime. The massive contracts of JJ and Crash would be at their end where they could be traded for value. I am not just trying to improve for today...I am looking ahead for tomorrow that has a 33 Deron at the helm at a point where the EC is ready for a new contender. I would rather re-tool than rebuild.

[enetric]

Wall, get you more up tempo. I think you are deciding that we cant run. I disagree. I think we DONT runt and thats a difference. I think Crash can run. JJ with a healed foot can run. I think any of our bench wings can run. I think you can add low level shooters...and I think we can then trade Hump for a better wing player a pair of decent role guys....to improve man to man D and outside shooting.

i dont think a healthy JJ runs. ive never seen it out of him, here or in atlanta. he just doesnt get up the floor. wall can run, but not by himself. our bench wings suck, sure they can run, but if you have marhson on the floor you are really hurting yourself in like 6 other areas.

Wall to me represents the type of talent that could take everyone up a notch. I also think while he will never be an elite 3 point shooter...I think he can be much more efficient offensive player. Rose couldnt shoot the three when he started in this league either. Wall is improving his shot and his range from what I saw this year.

i dont see it, i dont see him elevating anyone. especially if you can make him a half court player, which wouuld be easier since you dont have other guys running with him and can swarm him in transition.

One other thing...Lopez wont impact more up tempo play. I cant stress enough that a 5 doesnt impact that. I dont expect to run all day long. But I think we will have the ability to run. We will get a better fg% per game through a handful of quick baskets. Still going to need Lopez in the half court. Just maximizes our talent better.

i couldnt possibly disagree more. a horrible rebounding center who is terrible getting the outlet pass out quick and who walks up the floor certainly hurts the fast break game. sure not as much as JJ kills it, but still. we would be better on the break, but not by leaps and bounds, and we would take an enormous hit in the half court

As for comparing Deron to Wall. As of today...yes I put Deron above Wall. But at 22 years of age compared to 29 you cant see that gap closing? Plus, I got you the 4 you wanted for the short term and didnt have to spend the Hump contract to do it.. When JJ and Crash are gone...Wall and Lopez are still under 30 where Deron will be a 33 year old oft injured PG.

i dont see that gap closing to the point where the trade makes sense. by the time it did we would have deron/wallace/jj/brook all at the end of their contracts anyway

Deron
JJ
Crash
Lopez
Something for Hump's contract


Wall
JJ
Lopez
Nene

+ something for Humps contract

i think the deron team is leaps and bounds better to where i cant even consider the wall team. unless we could turn humphries into a superstar 2 like harden then i dont want any part of that deal.

If you dont see merit in it..doubt I just convinced you...but its the better team with a younger star player. If you just dont think much of Wall..that's another story. But I dont know how anyone wouldnt be extremely enthusiastic about him if they saw him a few times this year. The guy I saw once he got up to full minutes this year was fantastic. He just exploded his game to the next level.

ive watched every single wizards game this year that he played(not live) and all of his rookie year. he is my favorite non-net in the league. i was crushed when we missed him in the draft. id love to have him, but he isnt a better fit then deron. its too easy to slow this group down, and we would be really bad in the half court with less shooting and such a terrible bbiq and bad passing

I guess I am saying, even if he is less right now than Deron... to get him and Nene....I take the chance that the 22 year old is better today and tomorrow over the 29 year old Deron. Its not like Deron is going to get us to the NBA finals anyway. That isnt happening with this group. It might not happen with Wall either...but I just extended the window of the 1/5 tandem to a point where the right future moves could be a game changer.

i see your point, but i dont want to extend the window with this team. i want to maximize it and then blow it up in 3-5 years

1- JJ healthy is quick enough to run a handful of breaks. Not worried. Not saying he is fast...just saying he can run on a 3-2 break.

2- Its fine if you dont see as much upside as I do with Wall. He is only 22. The way you trashed elite PG's like Kidd and CP3...I dont really know what to say to you here. You dont see it you dont see it. You say you love the guy...so its a bit baffling. Perhaps you are just being argumentative for the sake of it at this point?

3- As for this, you wrote:
"i couldnt possibly disagree more. a horrible rebounding center who is terrible getting the outlet pass out quick and who walks up the floor certainly hurts the fast break game. sure not as much as JJ kills it, but still. we would be better on the break, but not by leaps and bounds, and we would take an enormous hit in the half court"

Here is a reality that you are either not seeing or not understanding. There are not many 5-4 breaks. Most effective transition works by man advantage. 2 on 1, 3 on 2, 4 on 3. By example, the showtime Lakers played with an 85 year old Kareem who was so slow that when they ran half court plays, Magic would stand at the key dribbling for 6 extra seconds waiting for Kareem to come over half court. Yet, they still ran up tempo looking for fast break mismatches as often as they could. You can absolutely have the half court big and still run more with everyone else and be effective. Cant live and die with it...but there are match ups where you can do it more often. This Bulls team would be one such example.

Sure, having one quicker big of your two is helpful...I agree with that if that is what you are trying to say. But you can always mask your center and be a team that takes off on the fast break for portions of a game. I can support your outlet pass comment...but the bigger issue is a complete lack of rebounding from the three perimeter positions. When you have guys who can dribble the ball OFF THEIR OWN rebound...that is the quickest and most effective way in the NBA to run. You get the ball...you go. No pass needed before half court.

4- You wrote: "i dont see that gap closing to the point where the trade makes sense. by the time it did we would have deron/wallace/jj/brook all at the end of their contracts anyway"

You say you are a Wall fan and that you did watch him play? Then its hard to argue once healthy this season he got to show all that he worked on over the previous off season. He was fantastic. But, even if he exceeds Deron a year from now....I still do not think this team is beating a healthy Heat team for the 3 year window we are looking at. So what I did was two fold.

First, instead of turning Hump into Nene only, I got Wall, a slight drop back for one star, added Nene...and I STILL have Hump to deal. Deron+Nene or say Wall+Nene+Gordon or maybe a Pierce (just examples). I strongly believe that version 2 is better for the short term.

And, by getting Nene in deal one, we can get use Hump to improve on the wing, move Crash to the bench. Get that additional shooter to improve the fit concerns you have about Wall. Because that is the issue right? He isnt a 3's guy yet....may never be. But JJ is. So get another guy who can hit an open look...add a bench guy as well who can be a spot up guy...and you can hide what Wall doesnt have as of yet. And he might add it. Rose didnt have that in his bag of tricks either. But either way...I believe I solved the issue.

As for later...you are right....those other guys on our team will be at the end of their contracts when Wall is just putting it all together. But instead of a 32 year old Deron...I will have a 25 year old Wall to pair with a 28 year old Lopez. Then, flipping our expiring JJ and Crash for other pieces means we retool instead of being forced to rebuild. So my plan makes us a bit better now...but also sets us up to be the NEXT EC contender later when the Heat are older and on the decline.

5- You say you want to blow it up in 3 years? That's not very realistic. And I say this to all Nets fans. The era of slow build IS OVER. Proky+Brooklyn means we are going to be a spend and burn team. I would rather have a quality young core in place 3 years from now so that when we sell off our fat expiring's for more talented guys on worse deals....we have something to build around. Because make no mistake...unless we become cash conscious...that is what we will do. And I would greatly prefer to have a 1/5 who are 25/28 than 32/28.

And if you do like Wall as much as you say...I cant understand why you would still be against this. I think I solved all your issues and in 3 years when the Heat are declining....we would in theory be in the mix to be the next big thing in the conference.

[treiz]

See that's part of my thinking. No one in the EC is getting past the Heat for the next 3 years. Deron will be 29 at the start of the next season. Where is he really taking us? Wall is 7 years younger. We would be just as competitive for today and by the time we are ready to take the next step Brook would be in his prime and Wall would just be coming into his prime. The massive contracts of JJ and Crash would be at their end where they could be traded for value. I am not just trying to improve for today...I am looking ahead for tomorrow that has a 33 Deron at the helm at a point where the EC is ready for a new contender. I would rather re-tool than rebuild.

Definitely my thought process reading this. This current group even it were given the title 'contenders' (which it isn't) is still not only in the same league but in the same conference as the Heat and let's be honest here I don't imagine any other team apart from this years Spurs or maybe OKC on a good run challenging them with in the next few years.

Lebron being 28 should indicate that he has perhaps around 5 years left of being an MVP type player. Worst case scenario, Wall would be 28 and Brook would be 30 when Lebron starts to tail off in terms of production and who knows by then other opportunities might open up.

Like MrDollarBills I like the thought process and I wouldn't be against it should it happen, but it is very unlikely especially considering our owner and GM with a 'win now' mindset

[MrDollarBills]

enetric, if this is what these buffoons running the Nets call 'win now', we are in trouble

I call this middling the pack, giving off the illusion to the marks that this team is trying to build towards something great.

[ihateJayz]

The team was built to attract attendance and their move doesnt look like a fail to begin with. They needed to look semi good to sell tickets. This team has no potential to do anything but stay stuck in the middle and never get any high draft picks.

[enetric]

enetric, if this is what these buffoons running the Nets call 'win now', we are in trouble

I call this middling the pack, giving off the illusion to the marks that this team is trying to build towards something great.

You and I are mostly on the same page. You misunderstood something I was saying about PJ the other day...but we are on the same page. Yes, I want a better coach. Yes he stinks. But a better coach with this group???

Marginal improvement as I see it.