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Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V

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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1461 » by DCZards » Thu May 2, 2013 1:45 pm

popper wrote:
I don't argue that the country needs to reform the healthcare system and that many people, unable to afford healthcare, can and should be helped by those of us more fortunate. My frustration is that I know the current fix will not work. It is far too complicated...... it is a drag on employment....... and it will drive doctors out of the system (to name just a few of its shortcomings). I wish a bipartisan group would band together and propose a substitute bill that is better tailored to achieve national objectives.


Popper, I don't disagree that Obamacare is not the perfect fix for what ails our healthcare system. (I agree with Zonk on the public option.) But fixing our healthcare system was talked about by Congress and various presidents for more than 50 years--and nothing was ever done, primarily because past leaders were unwilling to take on the insurance companies and the other special interest groups. So I give Obama credit for having the balls to step up and do somethimg...imperfect or not.

Your points about Obamacare being a drag on employment and driving doctors out of the system are assumptions (and Republican talking points) at this juncture. We don't know for sure what the overall impact of the new healthcare law will be once it is fully implemented.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1462 » by popper » Thu May 2, 2013 2:15 pm

DCZards wrote:
popper wrote:
I don't argue that the country needs to reform the healthcare system and that many people, unable to afford healthcare, can and should be helped by those of us more fortunate. My frustration is that I know the current fix will not work. It is far too complicated...... it is a drag on employment....... and it will drive doctors out of the system (to name just a few of its shortcomings). I wish a bipartisan group would band together and propose a substitute bill that is better tailored to achieve national objectives.


Popper, I don't disagree that Obamacare is not the perfect fix for what ails our healthcare system. (I agree with Zonk on the public option.) But fixing our healthcare system was talked about by Congress and various presidents for more than 50 years--and nothing was ever done, primarily because past leaders were unwilling to take on the insurance companies and the other special interest groups. So I give Obama credit for having the balls to step up and do somethimg...imperfect or not.

Your points about Obamacare being a drag on employment and driving doctors out of the system are assumptions (and Republican talking points) at this juncture. We don't know for sure what the overall impact of the new healthcare law will be once it is fully implemented.


We shall see how it works out. I'm hoping for the best but preparing for the worst.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1463 » by dobrojim » Thu May 2, 2013 4:54 pm

good post back there Zonk
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression

Those who are convinced of absurdities, can be convinced to commit atrocities
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1464 » by Zonkerbl » Thu May 2, 2013 11:57 pm

I can tell I've made a good point when I don't get a response...
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1465 » by hands11 » Fri May 3, 2013 1:56 am

Pops

This alternative idea you mention would suppose the Rs in Congress actually want to pass anything that includes anything the Dems and Obama want to do.

That is clearly not the case. Even when what the Dems want to do is what the Rs wanted to do in previous years.

The way the Rs in Congress have operated the last 5 years is like nothing I have seem from any Congress in my entire life.

Now that said, it has been interesting watching the establishment Rs go against the establishment Tea Party. Its a battle between those that represent a larger group of rich corporate/market interests vs those that represent a smaller group of mega rich individuals. Fascinating the watch.

I mean come on. Who wasn't entertained watching the R primaries.

Herman Cain was awesome... 9 9 9

Thats some good stuff from a comedy stand point. But see, here is what Rs don't realize. Its actually kind of scary stuff. HC 999. He is the Anti Christ. HC.. Hells Child. 999 is code for 666

The Rs are being fooled by Satan into thinking they are being righteous when instead Satin is leading them straight to hell with his deception.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1466 » by Benjammin » Fri May 3, 2013 2:08 am

^^^

Yeah, I know that Satin really scares me. Not as much as Cotton, or Silk or even Polyester though.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1467 » by popper » Fri May 3, 2013 3:47 am

Zonkerbl wrote:I can tell I've made a good point when I don't get a response...


Was it the public option point we should respond to or something previous to that?
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1468 » by popper » Fri May 3, 2013 3:58 am

hands11 wrote:Pops

This alternative idea you mention would suppose the Rs in Congress actually want to pass anything that includes anything the Dems and Obama want to do.

That is clearly not the case. Even when what the Dems want to do is what the Rs wanted to do in previous years.

The way the Rs in Congress have operated the last 5 years is like nothing I have seem from any Congress in my entire life.

Now that said, it has been interesting watching the establishment Rs go against the establishment Tea Party. Its a battle between those that represent a larger group of rich corporate/market interests vs those that represent a smaller group of mega rich individuals. Fascinating the watch.

I mean come on. Who wasn't entertained watching the R primaries.

Herman Cain was awesome... 9 9 9

Thats some good stuff from a comedy stand point. But see, here is what Rs don't realize. Its actually kind of scary stuff. HC 999. He is the Anti Christ. HC.. Hells Child. 999 is code for 666

The Rs are being fooled by Satin into thinking they are being righteous when instead Satin is leading them straight to hell with his deception.


There have been a number of bipartisan bills that have passed over the last 4 years. The parties though generally are on opposite ends of the spectrum as you mention. I suppose after watching multiple green energy bankruptcies and Feinstein's recent billion dollar contract award for CA rail most people would be justifiably skeptical of doing what Obama and the D's want. That is of course unless they want to institutionalize govt. corruption and malfeasance.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1469 » by Induveca » Fri May 3, 2013 4:58 am

Zonkerbl wrote:Start that discussion with a public option...

IT'S SO CRAZY IT JUST MIGHT WORK


How about just let people buy their own insurance with readily available options, accessible without ANY government mandated plan? Has worked well for my entire educated family my entire life. Go online, to an agent, via your employer....buy insurance. Want to make it even cheaper, put a $5k deductible on it......you have insurance for you/your wife for 210 bucks a month. Get a 4500 dollar bill? Put it on a 5-10 year payment plan, hospitals are happy to oblige. Wouldn't a "public option" be the same thing?

Say people "Can't afford insurance"? Skip the car you can't afford, skip the house you can't afford, get the 37 inch tv, not the 60 inch. Eat at home, skip the excessive sushi. Propping up a wasteful society, allowing them to continue to be irresponsible will inevitably backfire.

We're animals, there are times when natural selection comes into play. The US isn't the 3rd world, people have so many options/avenues available to them to protect/enrich themselves.....it's folly to think those not taking advantage of existing plans/opportunities will take advantage of moderately cheaper insurance, which still requires enrollment. Let them become desperate. It's a great motivator, or a great way to thin the herd.

Sounds harsh, but it needs to be done at times. Spending huge amounts of effort to save the weak/lazy/dysfunctional adult members of the herd is unnatural and irresponsible. It weakens the entire population.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1470 » by hands11 » Fri May 3, 2013 6:14 am

popper wrote:
hands11 wrote:Pops

This alternative idea you mention would suppose the Rs in Congress actually want to pass anything that includes anything the Dems and Obama want to do.

That is clearly not the case. Even when what the Dems want to do is what the Rs wanted to do in previous years.

The way the Rs in Congress have operated the last 5 years is like nothing I have seem from any Congress in my entire life.

Now that said, it has been interesting watching the establishment Rs go against the establishment Tea Party. Its a battle between those that represent a larger group of rich corporate/market interests vs those that represent a smaller group of mega rich individuals. Fascinating the watch.

I mean come on. Who wasn't entertained watching the R primaries.

Herman Cain was awesome... 9 9 9

Thats some good stuff from a comedy stand point. But see, here is what Rs don't realize. Its actually kind of scary stuff. HC 999. He is the Anti Christ. HC.. Hells Child. 999 is code for 666

The Rs are being fooled by Satin into thinking they are being righteous when instead Satin is leading them straight to hell with his deception.


There have been a number of bipartisan bills that have passed over the last 4 years. The parties though generally are on opposite ends of the spectrum as you mention. I suppose after watching multiple green energy bankruptcies and Feinstein's recent billion dollar contract award for CA rail most people would be justifiably skeptical of doing what Obama and the D's want. That is of course unless they want to institutionalize govt. corruption and malfeasance.


Yeah, I guess nothing like this kind of funding stuff ever happened under Bush or Reagan or the previous presidents for that.

So what did those green bankruptcies add up to? Anything close to that 2 Trillion we spent on Iraq and Afghanistan ?

And you missed my point. Its not that they are always on opposite sides of the spectrum on the issues. Rs won't even pass bills that were things they passed or supported under R presidents.

They are just out right obstructing.

But I expected this. Only thing that will fix this is the Rs losing more seats in the mid terms.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1471 » by hands11 » Fri May 3, 2013 6:18 am

Induveca wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Start that discussion with a public option...

IT'S SO CRAZY IT JUST MIGHT WORK


How about just let people buy their own insurance with readily available options, accessible without ANY government mandated plan? Has worked well for my entire educated family my entire life. Go online, to an agent, via your employer....buy insurance. Want to make it even cheaper, put a $5k deductible on it......you have insurance for you/your wife for 210 bucks a month. Get a 4500 dollar bill? Put it on a 5-10 year payment plan, hospitals are happy to oblige. Wouldn't a "public option" be the same thing?

Say people "Can't afford insurance"? Skip the car you can't afford, skip the house you can't afford, get the 37 inch tv, not the 60 inch. Eat at home, skip the excessive sushi. Propping up a wasteful society, allowing them to continue to be irresponsible will inevitably backfire.

We're animals, there are times when natural selection comes into play. The US isn't the 3rd world, people have so many options/avenues available to them to protect/enrich themselves.....it's folly to think those not taking advantage of existing plans/opportunities will take advantage of moderately cheaper insurance, which still requires enrollment. Let them become desperate. It's a great motivator, or a great way to thin the herd.

Sounds harsh, but it needs to be done at times. Spending huge amounts of effort to save the weak/lazy/dysfunctional adult members of the herd is unnatural and irresponsible. It weakens the entire population.


Believe it or not, I don't totally disagree with what you wrong. There is not thinning of the herd anymore. Gene pool is getting weaker. And you are right. People do have priority problems when it come to buying things. And need is a great motivator.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1472 » by popper » Fri May 3, 2013 1:54 pm

hands11 wrote:
popper wrote:
hands11 wrote:Pops

This alternative idea you mention would suppose the Rs in Congress actually want to pass anything that includes anything the Dems and Obama want to do.

That is clearly not the case. Even when what the Dems want to do is what the Rs wanted to do in previous years.

The way the Rs in Congress have operated the last 5 years is like nothing I have seem from any Congress in my entire life.

Now that said, it has been interesting watching the establishment Rs go against the establishment Tea Party. Its a battle between those that represent a larger group of rich corporate/market interests vs those that represent a smaller group of mega rich individuals. Fascinating the watch.

I mean come on. Who wasn't entertained watching the R primaries.

Herman Cain was awesome... 9 9 9

Thats some good stuff from a comedy stand point. But see, here is what Rs don't realize. Its actually kind of scary stuff. HC 999. He is the Anti Christ. HC.. Hells Child. 999 is code for 666

The Rs are being fooled by Satin into thinking they are being righteous when instead Satin is leading them straight to hell with his deception.


There have been a number of bipartisan bills that have passed over the last 4 years. The parties though generally are on opposite ends of the spectrum as you mention. I suppose after watching multiple green energy bankruptcies and Feinstein's recent billion dollar contract award for CA rail most people would be justifiably skeptical of doing what Obama and the D's want. That is of course unless they want to institutionalize govt. corruption and malfeasance.


Yeah, I guess nothing like this kind of funding stuff ever happened under Bush or Reagan or the previous presidents for that.

So what did those green bankruptcies add up to? Anything close to that 2 Trillion we spent on Iraq and Afghanistan ?

And you missed my point. Its not that they are always on opposite sides of the spectrum on the issues. Rs won't even pass bills that were things they passed or supported under R presidents.

They are just out right obstructing.

But I expected this. Only thing that will fix this is the Rs losing more seats in the mid terms.


I criticized Bush relentlessly during his 8 yrs. in office. Not much point in doing so now as it cannot influence future govt. performance. Better to concentrate attention on those who currently hold leadership positions.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1473 » by DCZards » Fri May 3, 2013 3:10 pm

Induveca wrote:
We're animals, there are times when natural selection comes into play. The US isn't the 3rd world, people have so many options/avenues available to them to protect/enrich themselves.....it's folly to think those not taking advantage of existing plans/opportunities will take advantage of moderately cheaper insurance, which still requires enrollment. Let them become desperate. It's a great motivator, or a great way to thin the herd.

Sounds harsh, but it needs to be done at times. Spending huge amounts of effort to save the weak/lazy/dysfunctional adult members of the herd is unnatural and irresponsible. It weakens the entire population.


Let them become desperate? Does that meam we should simply let people become sick and die? After all, that would certainly "thin the herd." We may be animals but that doesn't mean we should act and think like beasts.

At least you're consistent, indu, it's always about the money and never, ever about our humanity.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1474 » by Induveca » Fri May 3, 2013 3:59 pm

DCZards wrote:
Induveca wrote:
We're animals, there are times when natural selection comes into play. The US isn't the 3rd world, people have so many options/avenues available to them to protect/enrich themselves.....it's folly to think those not taking advantage of existing plans/opportunities will take advantage of moderately cheaper insurance, which still requires enrollment. Let them become desperate. It's a great motivator, or a great way to thin the herd.

Sounds harsh, but it needs to be done at times. Spending huge amounts of effort to save the weak/lazy/dysfunctional adult members of the herd is unnatural and irresponsible. It weakens the entire population.


Let them become desperate? Does that meam we should simply let people become sick and die? After all, that would certainly "thin the herd." We may be animals but that doesn't mean we should act and think like beasts.

At least you're consistent, indu, it's always about the money and never, ever about our humanity.


Survival of the fittest isn't a concept relegated to animals other than humans. It's a natural phenomenon, to ignore it is folly.

Keeping the weak-minded overly protected instead of those who can empower the entire community is a recipe for extinction.

Too lazy to fight others to drink from the lake or feed on a fresh kill? You'll become weak and will no longer outrun the lions.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1475 » by dobrojim » Fri May 3, 2013 4:33 pm

let em eat cake
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression

Those who are convinced of absurdities, can be convinced to commit atrocities
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1476 » by Zonkerbl » Fri May 3, 2013 5:45 pm

It's the tendency of insurees to self-select into different groups that results in the failure of the market. The solution is to NOT let people select out of certain options.

Young people in their thirties tend to not buy insurance. It's not that they can't afford it, it's that it just doesn't make economic sense to. The people who do buy insurance are the ones who tend to need it, so it ends up being more expensive. Which would be fine if young people never got sick, but they do and end up in the emergency room, where doctors are legally bound to treat you whether you have insurance or not. Because the uninsured are so unlikely to pay, the fees charged to the uninsured are typically three times higher than the fees charged to the insured, making it even more unlikely that the uninsured can pay.

The main problem is that we DO have socialized medicine, and it's called the emergency room. The emergency room is a really inefficient place to perform socialized medicine -- better to have a mandated plan that everybody has to buy into that covers the normal non-emergency things that otherwise end up getting treated in the ER if you don't have insurance. What's in Obamacare is, I think, a perfectly acceptable non-public option solution, but I'd have to read up on it to be sure. Healthcare isn't really my thing.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1477 » by dobrojim » Fri May 3, 2013 6:04 pm

I think the poor should hurry up and die so as to decrease the surplus
population (Dickens)
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1478 » by Zonkerbl » Fri May 3, 2013 6:40 pm

popper wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:I can tell I've made a good point when I don't get a response...


Was it the public option point we should respond to or something previous to that?


This one:

Zonkerbl wrote:
popper wrote:Interesting reading on this site regarding austerity, Krugman, etc. Different perspectives all with some degree of merit. My take for what it's worth;

Is it true that all income derived in our economy has its genesis in business activity and profit? Every federal, state, municipal and private sector employee derives every penny of their income from the private sector. If it weren't for profitable business', govt. could not exist. Therefore shouldn't we all cheer business profit as long as it is earned honestly and with as little harm to the environment as possible?

Shouldn't we extract for govt. purposes as little business profit as possible so it can instead be used to reward worthy employees, shareholders, and be used to expand business operations (thus creating more jobs and more govt. revenue)?

Isn't a big govt., dependent as it is on higher and higher claims on business profit and individual income a drag on the productive capacity of a nation? I could write ten pages of text detailing how govt. discourages business formation? Isn't this the opposite of what we should be aiming for?

When the economy slows or retrenches should we stimulate it by extracting more and more from business and individual income in the false hope that a mindless, faceless bureaucracy, devoid of risk/reward accountability, is better able to allocate finite resources? I shudder to think what will become of us if we believe such nonsense.


Wow, so much to answer to! The answer to this question is basically the entire field of microeconomics.

So this is the neocon philosophy in a nutshell: markets are good, we should always trust them no matter what because what are you, a commie?

It is based on one of the theorems that are only true in extremely restricted circumstances, namely, long run perfect competition. Perfect competition assumes all actors are small, all actors in the economy have instantaneous and costless access to all production technologies, all actions of all actors are instantly observable to all other actors, all transactions are costless, there is no such thing as private knowledge (because everything everyone knows is instantaneously available to everyone else), all property rights are clearly defined and enforcement of property rights is costless, and the consumption of all goods is excludable (you can prevent people from consuming them) and rival (one person's consumption of a good makes less available to others). In the long run, when entry and exit of firms has guaranteed that all firms are operating on the minimum of the average cost curve, then you can say that the resulting allocation of resources is Pareto optimal -- a Socialist central planner cannot reallocate resources in a way that would make anyone better off. In other words, when these conditions hold, you can trust markets.

These conditions NEVER hold. That opens up opportunities for government interventions that can improve on the allocative result of markets. Doesn't, however, necessarily mean that the government has the information necessary to know how to carry out the proper reallocation (that was Hayek's contribution). So the field of microeconomics is largely an exercise in studying what happens when you relax one or more of these assumptions, and whether there's a way for government intervention to improve on the market outcome.

If you relax the assumption of "small actors" you get monopolies.

If you relax the assumption of instantaneous and costless access to all production technologies, you get the lack of unconditional convergence (persistence of the income gap between rich and poor countries) and other things.

If you relax the assumption of costless transactions, you get situations where the original allocation of resources has inertia, which can result in suboptimal outcomes. This is related to the "costless enforcement of property rights" assumption. When it holds, you get the Coase theorem -- no matter what the original pattern of resource endowments, markets will ensure that all welfare improving transactions take place, so you don't have to worry about the original allocation of wealth. When transaction costs are high, or property rights are not well defined or costly to enforce, inheritors of wealth have lower costs of income enhancing investments. Poorly defined property rights are also the root cause of externalities, like pollution and traffic congestion.

If you relax the perfect information assumptions, you get moral hazard and adverse selection, adverse selection being the market failure extant in the health industry.

Goods that are non-exclusive and non-rival are public goods that the private sector has no incentive to produce. The biggest example is national defense. My consumption of national defense does not make national defense less available to you, and there is no way to defend some people but not others.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1479 » by sfam » Fri May 3, 2013 6:53 pm

Induveca wrote:
DCZards wrote:
Induveca wrote:
We're animals, there are times when natural selection comes into play. The US isn't the 3rd world, people have so many options/avenues available to them to protect/enrich themselves.....it's folly to think those not taking advantage of existing plans/opportunities will take advantage of moderately cheaper insurance, which still requires enrollment. Let them become desperate. It's a great motivator, or a great way to thin the herd.

Sounds harsh, but it needs to be done at times. Spending huge amounts of effort to save the weak/lazy/dysfunctional adult members of the herd is unnatural and irresponsible. It weakens the entire population.


Let them become desperate? Does that meam we should simply let people become sick and die? After all, that would certainly "thin the herd." We may be animals but that doesn't mean we should act and think like beasts.

At least you're consistent, indu, it's always about the money and never, ever about our humanity.


Survival of the fittest isn't a concept relegated to animals other than humans. It's a natural phenomenon, to ignore it is folly.

Keeping the weak-minded overly protected instead of those who can empower the entire community is a recipe for extinction.

Too lazy to fight others to drink from the lake or feed on a fresh kill? You'll become weak and will no longer outrun the lions.

Survival of the fittest is definitely a concept relevated to animals (note to readers: Homo Sapiens Sapiens are part of the animal kingdom). But unfortunatley for you, it no longer applies to hominid evolution. We as a race aren't evolving right now, and probably haven't for at least the last 30,000 years. People with all sorts of illnesses and defects still live long enough to procreate, which means there is no impact on the human genome. More than anything else, humans are adaptive, not adapted, meaning we survive in all sorts of environments. Unfortunately for your reasoning, most societies ever studied DO help those who are less fit, whether they are blind or what not.

The idea of Darwinism (survival of the fittest) as applied to society - which I think you seem to be advocating, is known as Social Darwinism - this largely died out in the 1880s (Spencer was the big proponent). Every now and then you'll have flair ups like the Nazis, who were big supporters, but suffice to say this theory isn't really in vogue anymore.

The only way we as a race become extinct at this point is a massive asteroid hit, or a self-inflicted calamity, such as a nuclear war, or perhaps the release of a custom nanotech WMD style virus in a few years from now. As for the thought behind the idea, that it would be good for our society to let our less fortunate starve and die, lets just say we disagree strongly on this point.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1480 » by Zonkerbl » Fri May 3, 2013 6:56 pm

So I guess my answer is, if the government were using economic analysis to properly identify market failures and to design government interventions in order to address the market failures in a way that allows markets to do what they are supposed, then the size of the government necessary to implement these solutions would be ideal. Any less than that size would be suboptimal. So there's that -- there is an optimal size of the government that is non-zero.

Is the U.S. government doing that? Hell no. From bitter, bitter experience I can tell you that the U.S. government is nowhere near that ideal. Maybe closer than governments in other countries, but economic analysis is clearly not driving, say, policy decisions at EPA. Efforts of OIRA to the contrary.

Your last paragraph diverges into a question about macro policy. I firmly believe that the U.S. government cannot create jobs with discretionary stimulus programs. The U.S. government can invest in public infrastructure, and create a stable macroeconomic environment that lowers the costs of risk for the private sector. That's it. That's where I diverge significantly from Krugman. I think there is a danger in having too much faith in your own massive intellect. Sometimes the smart thing is to know your limits, and the utility of stimulus policies is very limited. Add in the fact that 70% of what actually goes into a stimulus package is pork and other politics driven earmarks that will have no stimulus effect whatsoever, and you have a very strong argument for keeping your efforts to steer the economy with macro policy to a minimum.

I don't have a problem with interest rate manipulations. As long as the overall mission of the fed is to control inflation, and to restrict stimulus policies to those actions that do not lead to inflation in the long run, fine. Although, I think Nate may have some legit concerns that the current Fed policies are not strictly consistent with that strategy.
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